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Think about if that happens though.Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
You're telling me players who spent hundreds acquiring duals will react positively to having them banned, simply because WotC wants them to rebuy duals for the format they've been playing for years? Not gonna happen!
Yeah, no different than calling it Slutty Delver or Jetski Stoneblade or Assban Midrange. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
This is still my favorite. We tried to get my friend to write it on his decklist at the Open, but he got scared he might get in trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
As someone who plays both Modern and Legacy extensively...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Modern will probably never approach the depth and intricacy that Legacy provides me. The problem with Modern is that everything follows the same linear progression as your typical Standard or Block game, just sped up a little bit faster.
The unique thing about Legacy and Vintage, for me, always was that there were ways to cheat the normal linear progression of mana and cards. That's what makes these games so interesting - mana and card advantage generation creates swings in gameplay that add strategy and depth and unique flavor. When you have a format mostly bereft of free counterspells and faster mana generation (outside of Tron-lands in Modern, which might even get banned soon), most games generally devolve into "slam your fatty, check for removal, cast removal, slam another fatty". Or if the format is large enough to support combo, it just becomes a goldfish race with little interaction outside of specific hate cards.
I started playing Modern again earlier this year (had been out for years as my local scene had died due to the second round of bannings). Then I moved somewhere where there is actually Modern, and I've been enjoying the format. While the power level and intricacy is (in most cases) dramatically lower than Legacy, the format is very diverse and there's still plenty of room for interesting decks. The Unstorm/Pyromancer deck I've been piloting lately is at a similar level of intricacy to most combo I've played in Legacy albeit a little slower. I will again stress the diversity of the format - there isn't a dominant shell like in Legacy which means you never know what you'll end up playing against.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Uh... why?Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
I know people joke about bans being gratuitous in Modern, but there is absolutely no reason to expect a ban on the Tron lands. The deck isn't dominant, the deck can't win quickly, there's no logistics issues like Eggs, and pretty much no one's clamoring for a ban on it. Where in the world did you get the idea the Tron lands are in any danger?
I've been writing Tumor Delver on my decklists for almost a year now.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
They probably aren't, but several pros such as Brian Braun Duin have publically called for a removal of 8th/9th editions from Modern because of Summer Bloom and Tron lands. Now, I don't think Wizards would be so hasty, but the sentiment is definitely out there that Modern would be a better format without Tron lands, Choke, Blood Moon, and Summer Bloom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
The "diversity" is something that I actually don't like about Modern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
I'm the kind of player that does well when the metagame is established and predictable. When I know 90%+ of all of the decks I am going to be facing at a tournament, I can test copious matches beforehand to really gain an edge in the matchups. When the format is "wide open" like Modern, that edge disappears for me.
Legacy has always been a format where I basically know what I'm going to be playing against in every tournament, because the powerful decks are so clearly defined.
I like playing broken and non-interactive decks when my opponents aren't necessarily prepared and loaded up on sideboard hate for me. Therefore I tend to thrive in wide-open metagames like current Modern :cool:.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Modern is diverse, but it is not healthy. There is a HUGE difference. There are tons of viable modern decks, but 90% of them are non-interactive linear decks. For fair decks this means that your sideboard is really all that matters. Did you pack the right hate for the decks you played, and more importantly did you draw your hate? At GP Charlotte I packed hate for twin, tron, and bloom, but picked up all three of my losses against affinity, which I only had 3 cards for.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
What "several pros" are these? The only one I've seen do that is Brian Braun-Duin, and honestly he has gigantic bias in this matter because removing those sets would benefit his pet deck significantly. And even he's not asking for a ban on the Tron lands, but a removal of the sets that have them, which is something even less likely than banning the lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Of course. It's not like Wizards has ever banned expensive cards that have seen play for years before...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Of course it's not likely. I also don't think it's likely that Wizards is going to print new duals anytime soon.
I find it far more likely that they will ax the reserve list and reprint the original duals, and guess how likely that I think that is...
Looking at the top 5 decks (Grixis Twin, Naya Burn, Affinity, Grixis Control, and Jund) making up 43.65% of the metagame; these numbers are from MTG Goldfish, for whatever it's worth), we have 25.19% of the metagame not falling into that category (Grixis Twin, Grixis Control, and Jund). So that means that 25.19/43.65=57.7% of the top decks aren't 'non-interactive linear decks'. The 43.2% that does fall into the category of 'non-interactive linear decks' is a far cry from the 90% you claim. Even if none of the decks below those are interactive or nonlinear, that means that the top decks alone mean there's at most 75% of the decks that fall into the category you describe, not 90%.Quote:
Originally Posted by plowshares
Things might change as we move down the list, but again I'd want a more clear definition of what you're talking about. For example, does an aggro deck like Merfolk or Zoo count as 'non-interactive linear decks'? And while I counted Affinity in that category for the purpose of the above, I'm not sure I'm comfortable classifying it as 'linear' because the deck can take several angles of attack.
Paolo Vitor Damo Da Rosa has ranted about the uninteractive nature of Modern and Tron in particular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
If you listen to Mike Flores and Patrick Chapin on their podcast, they too floated an idea of banning Tron + Summer Bloom. Chapin in particular dislikes Tron greatly.
The difference between Modern and Legacy is that there is at least a potential Modern format that's more interactive (whether that's through new printings, reprintings, unbannings or new bannings).
Legacy is a slave to Brainstorm & buddies because it's so far and away the best thing to do. And I've made friends with the fact that Brainstorm probably will never be banned, I'm just saying that the best deck will probably be a cantrip-driven deck for the rest of the format's existence. Nedleeds dropped a lot of knowledge in here earlier about all the pressure it puts on every other potential strategy, I'm not going to repeat it.
Anyway, I would handicap Monday this way:
1.5-1: No changes.
3-1: Dig Through Time is banned.
5-1: Sensei's Divining Top is banned.
8-1: Earthcraft is unbanned.
10-1: Show & Tell is banned.
20-1: Black Vise or Mind Twist is unbanned.
30-1: Counterbalance is banned.
50-1: Survival of the Fittest is unbanned.
75-1: Ponder is banned.
100-1: Brainstorm is banned.
I would probably bet quite a few things at those odds.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Did they actually give a good reason why those cards need to leave the format? I feel them even suggesting those to be banned laughable.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
for 20-1, i may bet that one. and 1.5 -1 for no changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
I can't find anything by him singling out Tron. There was that Modern article he wrote a while ago when he was complaining about there being too many uninteractive decks and that Jund/Junk was the only thing that could handle them because it had "catch all" spells like Thoughtseize while everyone else had to just hope for drawing their hate (though this seems less valid now due to the Delver decks re-emerging), with no specification of Tron.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
I don't know the full context, but floating an idea is very different from actually advocating it or thinking it could happen.Quote:
If you listen to Mike Flores and Patrick Chapin on their podcast, they too floated an idea of banning Tron + Summer Bloom. Chapin in particular dislikes Tron greatly.
Basically, there is absolutely no good reason to believe the Tron lands are in any danger whatsoever in Modern. I'd be more worried about a fetchland ban than the Tron lands. (note: I think there's no chance of a fetchland ban. It's still more likely)
Tron is a police deck in the format, preying upon slower grind decks. It's good for Modern that Tron is in the format even if I personally do not enjoy playing against it because I never play decks that beat it.
Welcome to the Modern banned list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarky87
I don't think you guys give Wizards enough credit for caring about the format, but the problem is that people don't want to play MTGO.
They've released 4 Masters Editions, a Vintage Masters, Tempest Remastered, as well as every set from Mirage forward on MTGO, bypassing any Reserved List issue. Duals on MTGO are $2-20 apiece; and there are barely any cards that cost over $100 (Black Lotus, Rishadan Port, and Misdirection I think?): The most powerful card printed and the two best rares from the very first MTGO release, when they had the shortest supply (same reason Beta is so expensive).
You can build almost any Legacy deck on MTGO for less than a grand, which is great, but you lose out on all the fun and interaction of playing with real people. And while the relative cost is cheaper, who wants to rebuy their whole collection? Not to mention the weak interface, and their stupid insistence on a Windows-only platform.
I personally enjoy it, but I totally understand why anyone would avoid it. I do think they are trying to correct the damage they've done with the Reserved List, but unfortunately, the solution they've offered is not one the majority of players actually want.
I think you hit the nail on the head. No one wants to buy over the cards they own already. I know it would be hard for me to talk my wife into letting me spend MORE money on this game on cards I already own. That's a tough pill to swallow for many.
Interface issues aside, I am happy to give Wizards credit for making shit cheaper online (I am told Daze is cheep) but really, you want the client used make it work. Also online is not their only retail outlet, they get no credit offline and that's where most people play.
Ya, most of the blue based decks an be built for like $650-700 or less, but for most people that is still to expensive unless they build over time which is risky as any meta change could trash you previous purchases. Several non-blue decks (D&T and Lands) need Port and Waste bringing their costs up too what $900 just for those 2 playsets. When a std Std costs what $200, and you can draft to acquire some of the cards (which allot of players enjoy) and Pauper decks are normally $40 or less there is less incentive to build Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrsthethird
Vintage decks not being that much more then Legacy (compared to paper) probably hurts Legacy as well, as you can build towards Vintage for not much more, and play with power.
MTGO legacy is cheaper, but still outside most peoples price range, which is the problem you need a decent disposable income to play anything other then standard or pauper, unless you have been building up a collection for years and most of those people go to Modern as they have most of the cards already.
This is a real problem, I live in an area where the playing options are pretty much just kitchen table casual and fromt he few time I playe it was mostly the type of innactive multiplayer (most people just sit around and durdle unless someone has made themselves an obvious target, and they are afraid to make themselves a target, so the game goes on until someone pulls of a big play to win) games I got sick of in University, there was as store, but the owner kept screwing up things ans alienating his customers so people stopped going there. Last year when VMA came out, I decided to get back in to MTGO (sold everything digital to a friend back during Alara as I was not playing Magic at the time) and at what I am able to spend I am still not caught up with my physical collection (only just had the cash to buy Goyfs last month, still need to get the Zen fetches, Lilliana's, Show and Tell, Grisslebrand, most of MUD and Miracles... it will be a while since I can normally only spend $100-$200 a month while I am still paying off Student Loans)Quote:
Originally Posted by jrsthethird
Sarcasm? Daze is over $25 apiece online. (Edit: Because it's good. I'm an idiot.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Vintage is still ridiculously underplayed, despite the much lower cost of entry. Even a deck with only Lotus and a Mox, it's almost $200 for two cards that you can't play anywhere else (except maybe EDH? I'm not sure). Some of the same issues there I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
Also, cards don't have the same guarantee to hold their value. Foils exist, but they're rarely significantly pricier, because they're essentially a ripple animation. The lack of Reserved List means they CAN keep the price down, although with more Wastelands coming out in Tempest Remastered (as a Rare), it didn't seem to make it drop much. This I think also keeps people away from investing into Vintage, because Power always = easily accessible cash.
Umm, Masques block is NOT from the start of MTGO, it started with Invasion, Masques black was the LAST of the pre MTGO sets to be added.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrsthethird
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...ther/11222011d.
Wasteland is ~30 tix less than what is was at before Tempest Remastered was announced. It droped to just over 40 tix right before the set was released. the reprint did affect the price allot, however the window for buying and drafting the set was so small (something like 3 weeks) that it did not put enough into the card pool to significantly affect the long term price, and Wasteland has recovered most of what it lost, but the price is allot lower then it was.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrsthethird
When is the next banned list update? I can't find a date.
Just finished making omnitell and kinda worried dig through time is going to get axed:/
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ent-2015-03-23Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantarus
Hate to break it to you, but it's announced this Monday
I never paid much attention to extended, but the Modern ban list philosophy seems like it's based on marketing moreso than the Legacy ban list philosophy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Why is there a turn four rule in Modern (but not Legacy)? If a combo deck is dominant and oppressive, they don't need an extra rule to justify the ban! The purpose of the T4 rule is to facilitates bans to kill decks which are not OP. Why would WotC want to kill (or curb) a deck which is not OP? Because that deck is not "fun".
And that's all there is to it. In Modern, WotC will not allow anything that will turn off the player base. This includes fast combo, but also slow, grindy, control. Legacy has always allowed for every slow and very fast decks. It's well known that some players don't like those decks, but I think the target audience for eternal has always been people who enjoy less conventional strategies and/or who have a thicker skin.
For the record, it is not acceptable to slow play (or "stall") in Legacy, but it is acceptable to play a slow deck that needs lots of time to play correctly.
I honestly believe that miracles game 2 plan is to stall for a win if they won the first game. They sideboard out all the win cons, while adding in as many answers as they can, and just try and make sure they don't die. If they lose game one they sideboard in more win cons and try and finish the match. I think most people know this to be true and it is one of the unspoken secrets to miracles success.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
As for the banned list, what do people think is most likely for legacy:
A) No change.
B) Ban Top.
C) Ban Dig through time.
D) Both B and C.
Personally I feel like Either C or D are totally possible. With Cruise banned I think Dig has replaced it and has warped the meta. Most top decks run 3-4 it seems like.
No, they generally don't unless they need the consistency. a full set of DTT is just too much unless your deck is called Miracles, and eveen then it isn't optimal to play the full set. Look at the two finalist Miracles decks from GP:Lille. Neither played the full set main. It's still a possible ban because, and this is relevant, it compares to Brainstorm and it doesn't always lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantarus
They might stall that way, not the same as a slow play. There are no rules against making legal plays, as long as they are made in timely fashion. At a time when Worldgorger Dragon has just been unbanned, I don't think WotC are worried abourt intentional G2 draws attempts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tantarus
Note that the Shahrazad ban came with this disclaimer:The same cannot be said for SDT.Quote:
I have a hard time imagining any real strategic value to playing the card others than as a pure time-wasting device; to that end I don't think we are taking anything away from the "eternal" formats by not allowing the card
Regarding Monday, I'm guessing A or C. I'm not anticipating a Top ban - if WotC want to kill Miracles they can probably do so in a way that will incur less splash damage.
I have the same feeling about the reserved list. What about WotC sanctioned dual land proxies and other reserved list cards? For example, 8 sanctioned reserve list proxies could be used for any legacy deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Printing proxies would not exactly be a reprint. Wotc world still make money off the proxies and prices of reserve list cards would not drop as long as they don't flood the market with proxies.
They should stop banning cards. They need to unban survival, earthcraft and black vise.
brainstorm, dark ritual, lions eye diamond, force of will and wastland all define legacy.
Wotc needs to print a legacy masters.
No complaints here. Agree with everything you've said. The sad thing is, that's extremely unlikely to ever happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonwisdom
The use of proxies would have to have a condition, for example: in order to use this proxy in a sanctioned event, you must pay $x to the tournament organizer per proxy being used. The cost should be cheap enough so rose that don't grind sanctioned eternal events don't end up spending the price of the card being proxied, but not so cheap that it would make no financial sense to use proxies over the real thing. I think $5 is a good medium, and there would only be proxies for res list cards (mainly duals). Most decks would be using 6-8 duals, so $30-40 is a much cheaper cost than $1000, but not so cheap that using them for every SCG IQ would be financially beneficial.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonwisdom
Some people actually think having a wide open format where jank-of-the-week makes up the format makes for a healthy format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Just unban Survival or ban Show and Tell. There is no acceptable argument why Show and Tell is legal and Survival is not. In fact Show and Tell should be banned instead of Survival imo.
Thinking about it now that you mentioned it, in some corporate office, banning those is probably not all that crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
That was my big gripe with mtgo. I own DnT, Punishing NicFit, Merfolk, and RG Tron in paper. I don't want to pay for all that stuff again to play online.
Survival unbanned, ok.
Sure i survival vendevine maverik like would be hella balanced in a terminus format.