Miracle Control

So I got in about 30 matches with portent miracles on MTGO and I really like what I'm seeing. Portent into Opponent Upkeep Terminus is pretty damn strong while also helping set up counterbalance. It's obviously not as good as SDT, but I think we might have something here as the playstyle just feels a lot smoother than the soothsaying builds. I played all of the games without a sideboard, but I think a standard 2xish Blood moon/From the Ashes, 2 Clique, 3 Gravehate of choice, 3-4 REB, 2-3 flusterstorm, 2ish wear/tear approach might work out of the gate.

Maindeck

* 4 Portent
* 4 Ponder
* 4 Brainstorm
* 4 Counterbalance
* 4 Force of Will
* 4 Swords to Plowshares
* 4 Snapcaster Mage
* 4 Terminus
* 3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
* 1 Council's Judgment
* 2 Counterspell
* 1 Spell Pierce
* 1 Flusterstorm (This is the flex slot. I'm tempted to turn this into either JTMS #4, Vclique, 3rd Counterspell, E Explosive, Maindeck Pyroblast in appropriate meta, or something else).
* 4 Scalding Tarn
* 4 Flooded Strand
* 2 Arid Mesa
* 2 Plains
* 4 Island
* 2 Volcanic Island
* 2 Tundra

Sideboard (Prospective)

* 2 Flusterstorm
* 1 Kozilek's Return
* 3 Pyroblast (REB also works since we aren't using Mentor)
* 2 Surgical Extraction
* 1 Containment Priest
* 2 Wear/Tear
* 2 Blood Moon (I prefer it to From the Ashes/Ruination due to being 3 CMC, and over BTB because I'm cheap)
* 2 Vendilion Clique

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

Neo Miracle List

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Hello jdmdave! Thanks for sharing your Portent Miracle list!

You are still playing a full set of Terminus but no Entreat? It is because you feel it is much more difficult to setup it now (compared with Terminus)? Without EtA, do you feel 4 snapcasters and 3 JTMS suffice as your win condition?

Thanks:tongue:

@jdmdave: How does it do in specific matchups? Anything giving you any trouble?

I'd say pretty similar to pre-ban matchups, except Leovold based Bug decks are even more of a pain in the ass. I'll run the deck at a side event of the GP this weekend to find out more. This deck has ABSOLUTELY no problem setting up C-balance. By default more 1 cmc stuff will slip through counterbalance, but JTMS is just a ridiculous magic card.

As for the lack of entreat/win cons, the deck doesn't have the luxury of instant speed on demand entreating due to the lack of top, so it's much more reliant upon JTMS upticks to win. Maybe the Flusterstorm flexstop should become entreat? I do feel that the deck is wayyyy too low on 3 cmc (just 1 atm) and might have issues winning matches in a 50 minute timeframe.

Leovold based decks super suffer Pyroclasm and REBs

Snapcaster Mage give you 8 of each, potentially. Now there is also Sweltering Suns

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

So I got in about 30 matches with portent miracles on MTGO and I really like what I'm seeing. Portent into Opponent Upkeep Terminus is pretty damn strong while also helping set up counterbalance.

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I've also been testing out Portent Miracles (just against myself with two windows of TappedOut, since I don't have MTGO, so not the best testing obviously, but it is what it is...). I've gone a slightly different route and dropped Counterbalance since SDT is gone. I've added 2 Cliques (for help closing out the game, disruption/clock against combo, and to filter dead cards away), two Entreats, and more main-deck countermagic to compensate for the lack of Counterbalance. My current testing build is:

4 Snapcaster
2 V Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Portent
1 Pyroclasm
4 Terminus

1 Eng Explosives
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

20 land (9 fetch, 4 island, 2 plains, 3 tundra, 2 volcanic)


So far it feels... ok. Perhaps Ponder should find its way back in, though I worry about including too many cantrips and not enough action. I could see cutting a Spell Pierce and another card (maybe one Entreat) for 2 Ponder, at least.

One interaction I do like is being able to Portent, shuffle, then Jace-brainstorm to draw three and put back two, and then Portent's delayed draw should still work, which does give more looks at finding a Terminus / Entreat without needing to hope for a lucky topdeck off the Portent shuffle.

Looks pretty similar. I really do think Counterbalance is one of the main payoffs for staying UW/r as JTMS + Cbalance is absolutely backbreaking.

I give it my try

4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, TMS.
4 Monastery Mentor (avoids Spell Pierce/Snare/Reb)

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Pyroclasm
0-2 Meekstone (drop one of these babies against Leovold/TNN or Eldrazi and everything becomes bad for him)
0-2 Curfew(SneakShow drops, Marit Lage for him. Asymmetrycal for you because you can bounce back the token self created from Mentor, Snapback your own Mage, save your Mentor from Decay).

2 Council's Judgement
2 Wear Tear/the new cycler
1+1 From the Ashes (we want our chance against 12 post decks and similar)

3 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell

4 Rebs
1 more Pyroclasm
3 Flusterstorm
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Leyline of Sanctity

I know I went over 60. Some cards go to the SB, that's a 75

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

That's pretty much what we have to talk about at this point.




A few criticisms of the list: I think you need -1 SFM because 2 + 1 equipment has always been enough, and I don't see why you need 3 if you only have 1 equipment to fetch. I would replace the 3rd with a second spell snare.

Secondly, I think you strongly need a basic mountain or a 3rd Volcanic Island if you have this many red cards in your sideboard that you're incentivized to bring in vs Delver, as I don't believe that 2 Volc alone is sustainable.

Finally, I understand you're just testing, as I have, but I think any # of Miracles cards want your manipulation suite to be at it's highest. That likely means 4 JTMS and less Predicts because Predict simply is just too difficult to sustain CA from with only 8 Cantrip effects.

Just my two cents, hope your testing goes well!

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Thanks for the tips. Anyway, in tests, I missed clique and you are right about predicts and sfm.

I'm going to start tracking results for my miracles list, but I'll be somewhat slow until mid June (preparing for the CFA Level 3 exam). I've got about another 10 matches under my belt with the above listed portent build, but I'm still not sure if the flusterstorm should be counterspell #3, Noxious Revival #1, Predict #1, Spell Pierce #2, or Spell Snare #1 (testing counterspell).

Quick Match Results

BUG - 2-0 (2-1/2-0). My old strategy was sideboarding out Cbalance+FOW, so the new JTMS + Counterspell heavy build did serious work. Deck felt REALLY smooth with portent -> terminus dodging D-rite/Hymn.
Reanimator - 1-1. Force check coinflip
Eldrazi - 1-2. Lack of instant speed terminus becomes pretty noticeable in this matchup. Needs work.
Storm - 1-0. Counterlock with JTMS + Cbalance is strong. Removal of Abrupt Decay was noticeable.
Elves - 1-1. Dude must've shit bricks with portent into terminus. Second match got rolled due to not finding terminus in time.

* 2 Volcanic Island
* 2 Tundra (Mirroring IRL Cardpool)
* 4 Island
* 2 Plains
* 4 Flooded Strand
* 4 Scalding Tarn
* 2 Arid Mesa
* 4 Counterbalance
* 4 Ponder
* 4 Brainstorm
* 4 Portent
* 4 STP
* 4 Terminus
* 3 JTMS
* 1 Council's Judgment
* 4 Snapcaster Mage
* 3 Counterspell
* 1 Spell Pierce
* 4 Force of Will

Sideboard

* 2 Blood Moon (I'll test ruination/BFB)
* 4 REB (Fuck Leovold)
* 2 Surgical (Reanimator)
* 1 Containment Priest (Reanimator/S&S)
* 2 Vclique (BUG/S&S)
* 2 Flusterstorm (Storm/Control)
* 2 Wear/Tear (General purpose, but I'm not sure this is really necessary anymore. We don't care about pithing needle anymore, it sucks as a CB flip, and their isn't a mirror match anymore). Considering supreme verdict/E-explosives/something for the BUG matchup in this slot (Gideon/Elspeth)

jdmdave, have you given any thought of working Predict into that Portent shell?

I actually have! Either just a straight swap for the 3rd counterspell, or put in 2 predicts in place of a counterspell+spell pierce/counterbalance.

In the search for a card or card combinations to replicate what top did. It becomes clear how busted top was at 1 mana.

4 or 5 mana would be more reasonable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tormod

In the search for a card or card combinations to replicate what top did. It becomes clear how busted top was at 1 mana.

4 or 5 mana would be more reasonable.

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Elemental Augury does it for 3 and can target your opponent.

I will say that although the deck is not now, in my view, playable at all, it has certainly come into by far the best deck name in all of Magic: Topless Miracles. :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

Looks pretty similar. I really do think Counterbalance is one of the main payoffs for staying UW/r as JTMS + Cbalance is absolutely backbreaking.

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The main and pretty much only payoff for staying UWr is blast effects. That being said I don't believe either Counterbalance, Terminus, Monastery Mentor or Entreat the Angels are good enough by themselves to be played anymore.

8-0 over various legacy irl legacy events at the GP with the above list. This deck feels REALLY strong.

* 2-1 vs DnT
* 2-0 vs BR Reanimator
* 2-0 vs Burn
* 2-1 vs BR Reanimator
* 2-1 vs 4c Pile
* 2-0 vs Food Chain
* 2-0 vs RG Lands
* 2-0 vs BUG Leovold

Updates coming.

Uh..., is it just me or... does the deck attempt to win via Snapcaster beats and Jace backdoor?

Assume they will get there..., how much of the surprise factor contributing to the wins? As in, people just assume Miracles has died and not run Decay anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

8-0 over various legacy irl legacy events at the GP with the above list. This deck feels REALLY strong.

* 2-1 vs DnT
* 2-0 vs BR Reanimator
* 2-0 vs Burn
* 2-1 vs BR Reanimator
* 2-1 vs 4c Pile
* 2-0 vs Food Chain
* 2-0 vs RG Lands
* 2-0 vs BUG Leovold

Updates coming.

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You changed nothing in the list ? Did you try Predict ? Keep us informed.

@jdmdave:
No wincon beyond SCM & Jace seems meh. 4 CB seems meh - even before the ban of Top, most successful lists have come to drop one. CB #4 --> EtA seems like a no-brainer to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

8-0 over various legacy irl legacy events at the GP with the above list. This deck feels REALLY strong.

* 2-1 vs DnT
* 2-0 vs BR Reanimator
* 2-0 vs Burn
* 2-1 vs BR Reanimator
* 2-1 vs 4c Pile
* 2-0 vs Food Chain
* 2-0 vs RG Lands
* 2-0 vs BUG Leovold

Updates coming.

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Looking forward to the updates. I feel like with a pre-ban list it would be tough to get those results. Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out Top was actually holding the deck back all this time? Sigh...a man can dream.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crowe_1

Looking forward to the updates. I feel like with a pre-ban list it would be tough to get those results. Wouldn't it be funny if it turned out Top was actually holding the deck back all this time? Sigh...a man can dream.

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Sadly, that is impossible.

Looking forward to hearing the updates as well! I'm convinced CB is unplayable, but Terminus still seems reasonable with enough setup, it's so powerful.

You guys keep slamming CB as unplayable, but trust me, it very much IS playable. I highly recommend you guys give my list a spin before laying judgment.

That said 3 CB + 1 Clique might be better than 4 CB/0 clique, but I'll need to grind more online before I come to a more definitive conclusion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

You guys keep slamming CB as unplayable, but trust me, it very much IS playable. I highly recommend you guys give my list a spin before laying judgment.

That said 3 CB + 1 Clique might be better than 4 CB/0 clique, but I'll need to grind more online before I come to a more definitive conclusion.

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I'm slamming it as unplayable after extensively testing it, alongside the full spectrum of enablers. It's just not strong or consistent enough.

Have you tried my list?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

Have you tried my list?

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Yes, it was among the first that I tried, as well as deviations from it that my friends have shared. CB is not sustainable at a high, consistent level.

I'll grind the comp league before coming to a final judgment, but the card has overperformed for me, particularly in this delver/storm infested meta. I'll also try a legend package and a stoneforge package.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

Sadly, that is impossible.

Looking forward to hearing the updates as well! I'm convinced CB is unplayable, but Terminus still seems reasonable with enough setup, it's so powerful.

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How many cantrips do you all think are necessary to make Terminus playable?

Do you think 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder is enough (along with 4 Snapcaster Mages), or would more be needed?

And if Terminus is playable, is it still a 4-of, or would it be necessary to reduce the number in the main to avoid overly clunky hands/draws?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

Yes, it was among the first that I tried, as well as deviations from it that my friends have shared. CB is not sustainable at a high, consistent level.

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Have you tried the suite with 4 Portents and 4 Predicts?

I understand that counterbalance is up for debate, but I absolutely feel that terminus is currently playable as a 4 of. Between Brainstorm/Ponder/Portent/Jace/Snapcaster, it's incredibly easy to stack it on top.

Yes, you have a far lower instance of instant speed blow outs, but a 3-for-1 is still a 3-for-1

Edit: I've also noticed I'm winning a ton of postboard matches with blood moon - Perhaps it should be mainboarded? Blood Moon into JTMS is GG vs so many decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

I'll grind the comp league before coming to a final judgment, but the card has overperformed for me, particularly in this delver/storm infested meta. I'll also try a legend package and a stoneforge package.

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I have been using your list with couple changes. Here's my findings:

1. With enough cantrips, it is possible to pseudo float cmc 1 and 2. Of course, it's less consistent. However, as long as you cast a cantrip every turn, and sometimes via Snapcaster flashback, it might just be enough against Delver decks. Portent makes a lot of sense here.

2. Takes a long time to win. If you run into combo decks, you can certainly win quickly by Snapcaster beats. But if you run into fair decks like DnT, this would turn into grind-fest fast and you have no Entreat to close out. Yes, after I disenchant like 4 times (via Snapcasters), cleared out jitte, skull, and sofi, finally I was able to stabilize and pretty much drained all the clock to get a win for that game, but that won't close out the match.

3. As much as I want to run 3 Jace, this combo-infest meta just isn't allowing that to happen. There is no way for me to tap out Main Phase to cast Jace against combo, unless we just fought a counter war and I need to reload my hand anyway.

4. Surprise factor. People just assume that Miracles players cease to exist and they'll never need decay for CB.

Hence, my Modified version:

4 snapcaster mage
1 vendillion clique
3 counterbalance
4 brainstorm
3 counterspell
4 force of will
1 spell pierce
1 spell snare
4 stp
2 jace
1 council's judgement
3 ponder
4 portent
1 supreme verdict
3 terminus
1 batterskull
20 the usual lands

SB:
1 pithing needle
1 containment priest
2 ethersworn canonist
1 vendilion clique
2 disenchant
2 flusterstorm
1 kozilek's return
2 pyroblast
2 surgical extraction
1 from the ashes

card choices:
1. Since it's harder to float, want to reduce Miracle cards count, verdict is better against tempo decks anyway.
2. The actual win-con is the batterskull and the MD clique. I would still have 2 cliques in the 75 in this combo meta, no matter MD or SB, I just happen to split them.
3. Canonists for Storm combo, Containment Priests for other combos, i.e. show and tell, elves, reanimator, and Vial decks like DnT.

With the inability to float 2, it's now very, very difficult to stop Loam. Our MU against Lands is now unfavorable. You Have to Clique that Loam away. If they happen to found multiple, it'll be very difficult. Now, all the fast combos are punching Lands into the ground, though Lands have plenty of combo hate in its SB. Hence this MU problem might just take care itself by the Meta.

Basically in agreement with all of your points. My biggest issue was winning games in a 50 minute window and floating 2cmc consistently. My two points of disagreement regarding the list are the supreme verdict over the 4th Terminus and only 3 ponders, but these are minor gripes. I love the look on my opponents faces when they get portent -> Terminused, PARTICULARLY with an active leovold. As for Batterskull vs Jace and the counterspell/pierce/snare ratio, please let me know how it goes.

One interaction people sometimes forget about Portent is that you can actually actively screw with your opponents topdecks, which is particularly effective vs nonblue decks. I had this come up vs BR reanimator in a topdecking situation where I just gave him reanimate-reanimate then abrupt decay with an active 1cmc counterbalance online.

My Sideboard is pretty similar, but I really like blood moon over BTB/FTA/Ruination. The card just ends games on the spot.

* 1 EE
* 2 Vclique
* 3 Pblast
* 2 Blood Moon
* 2 Wear/Tear
* 2 Flusterstorm
* 1 Canonist
* 2 Surgical

I'm taking the CFA Level 2 Exam beginning of June, so I'll start testing in earnest after the 3rd of June.

jdmdave, what do you think of using Personal Tutor in the Portent list in tandem with your cantrip package? It can be either a Terminus or an Entreat or some other one-of that may be useful (From the Ashes postboard vs. 4c grindy midrange.dec). It could even be a Portent for when you need one. I would cut 1 Counterspell 1 Ponder 1 Snapcaster and add in 2 Personal Tutor/1 Entreat. This allows us to use Entreat against lists where we want a quick closeout. It also allows us to grab Council's Judgment when it is needed. Personally, I like From the Ashes instead of Blood Moon because every 4c deck is BG and has the ability to float BG for Abrupt Decay.




There is also Arcane Denial, which could be used in place of Counterspell as both a filter that draws 3 on your opponent's turn for Terminus or a subpar hard counter that answers cards you just can't afford to let resolve like Infernal Tutor. This seems way too cute.

So a quick update - I was testing a mini stoneblade package (+2 SFM, +1 Bskull, -1 counterbalance, -1 JTMS, -1 Counterspell) and didn't like it, but I had pretty reasonable success with a legends package (-1 JTMS, -1 Cbalance, -1 Snap, -1 Judgment, +1 Karakas, +2 Vclique, +1 Venser). Anyone else have updates?

I'm going to start testing some stuff in paper with some Portent lists soon

Played Portent Miracle last night at my fnm, went 4-0 against shardless, grixis delver, goblins and rug delver. Report to come.

How close is your list to mine? I've been doing more testing and have found myself reverting to a 3 CB + 1 Vclique build over SFM package or Legends

I will post my list soon. But it is a predict build with counterbalance and 2 EtA. No clique, no sfm package.

I've been tempted to try 19 land predict build, but felt it would be too inconsistent with Jace. How did you find ETA without access to consistent opponent EOT triggering?

Why is Miracles still a DTB with Sensei's Top banned?