Just tap all blockers and attack with a 20/20 knight?
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Just tap all blockers and attack with a 20/20 knight?
Do you have enough Forests, Plains and fetches in your manabase to grow it big enough..?
Looking a PowerDragn's list for example, he just barely makes the number required and also lacks a way to protect the Knight from a StP/Abrupt Decay before it gets to do any damage. I would love to see both a Sejiri Steppe and a Sylvan Safekeeper in that list to accomplish that goal. That would allow you to crack a fetch during combat, untap Knight and rotate your last Plains/Forest for a Steppe in response to removal or just sacrifce a land to Safekeeper to keep the Knight safe.
If not enough lands, just include a Kessig Wolf Run, this also gives us something to do with the excess mana.
I am assuming he doesn't have removal, because he would likely have used it at the first opportunity. That said, Sejiri Steppe is probably worth a slot.
Kessig Wolf Run would also give it trample to deal with hexproof creatures/TNN. Nice find!
Good point on the TNN. Didn't even think about that, but yes Trample comes in handy there.
So let's assume we have an active Knight, and cast Retreat to Coralhelm. Opponent can use removal with Retreat on the stack, but then we tap Knight for Steppe, and try again next turn.
If he does nothing, then we proceed to tap Knight and sac a land. This is probably the best opportunity to use removal. It's still not bad for us, just 1 for 1.
Now, what if we have an additional, untapped fetch when casting Retreat? Then we can respond to the removal spell by fetching up a land, untapping Knight and getting Steppe.
When does this card become legal? :D
I like to see Rogue's Passage somewhere in the 75.
I'd say instead of Kessig Wolf Run. This way, you eliminate the need for red mana. I'd suggest this build to work with:Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Return to Coralhelm
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Rogue's Passage
3 Wasteland
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Tropical Island
The Marsh Flats in the previous list were horribly misplaced, they can't fetch Trops. The current fetches can get all lands necessary
We only need one red mana source in the deck, and there is the question of reaching 20 damage.
You're going from a GWb deck to GWbur. Let's try to limit that to GWbu. The 20 damage thing is solved by either having enough land or making a 10/10 Knight able to attack for 2 turns straight.
Why no Scryb Ranger? Her synergy is nothing short of insane.
Because oversights. I'll update the list. Though maybe we'll want to make it a Quirion Ranger. Quirion Ranger + manadork = 4 mana on turn 2 (3 after casting Quirion Ranger).
The thread title says GW/x, but I agree that if Rouge's Passage get the same job done, then it is superior.
I do think it is important to win the game on the spot, giving the opponent a turn to find an answer makes it much weaker.
EDIT: Misread Rogue's Passage
How so? You can't feed it to your Knight, he only likes Plains and Forests. You just have to hope your opponent doesn't Wasteland it next turn, that's all. Besides, worst case scenario you get to keep smashing face with a 10/10 Knight. Draw/GSZ another one and fuck that TNN.
I think going for a red splash, and a blue splash, combined with the current black splash is too much IMHO. Not saying it can't be done, but I think running 4 BoP over 4 Noble H. would facilitate this. Having a blue card is interesting because it then brings in maybe having UG creatures in the board/main for GSZ targets as well as potentially having FoW and Blue cards out of the board, potentially dropping the Red/Black/whatever extra colors and switch to a tricolor deck post board for Bant Good Card Value Town.
Brainstorms with all the KotR shuffles. Coiling Oracle seems decent in a UG deck with lots of lands. Crazy me says Kruphix seems good with an excess of mana. Trygon Predator seems to see play in vintage if I recall. I guess what I am trying to say is that if we are adding Blue for this enchantment, why don't we drop the Black for DRS and go more in on Bant colors for other benefits. We lost Black removal in Abrupt Decay, extra crazy graveyard hate/ramp of DRS, discard out of the board, but we gain blue for counters and a whole other set of tools we don't normally think of in a GWx creature deck. I know a few years back Reid Duke (I think) was playing a Bant list with Maverick style shell running things like Jace TMS and just good Bant stuff.
I'll try and work up a list later, thoughts?
Do you have a deck list in mind? I don't see how what you are describing as anything less than Bant Midrange. It doesn't sound very Maverick to me. Splashing blue does gives us Flusterstorm. Flusterstorm on top of discard does great work against combo.
I don't think you're talking about Maverick at that point...yes, some players experimented with Bant colors, but AFAIK without much success.
Add blue for the enchantment. Then add brainstorm because you're in blue. You'll have to cut Thalia, for space and synergy. Kruphix (assuming you mean Kruphix, not Courser) and Coiling Oracle sound terrible. Your blue count would be too low for FoW, but you could get away with Spell Pierce.
What match ups would Retreat realistically improve?
I don't think you have to force your way to +18/+18 KotR to win. The deck allows you several options with RtC.
Like people stated, Kessig Wolf Run is fine. Also, I have yet to need a full 20 damage. Often if you can just get 13-16 that's enough. Also, don't forget that you can get extra activations out of a Deathrite Shaman to kill someone. Or you can get protection from a Mother of Runes. There's a lot of versatility available.
I don't think we need to go overboard adding colors. We can simply add the enchantment and one searchable land and do what we need to. Deathrite and Bird/Hierach will give us the other color we need most likely.
I was more just brainstorming things with Kruphix and Coiling Oracle. It wasn't really along the lines of "hey let's play these bad cards" but more "I personally have thought of Maverick as GW and know the GW tricky toolbox creatures and silver bullets to play, but haven't thought of the random weird things Blue would have to offer". The goal was to try and think outside the box like I will do below....Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
I personally have been working with just GW and not focusing on Black, but I know a lot of the community very much agrees that the black "splash" for discard, DRS, and ADecay are well worth it and not at a severe cost due to fetch lands and DRS giving access to 3 colors easily.
I personally focus too much on spoilers and look for flashy tricks and combos to run, but to me Maverick doesn't fit a "combo" or trick shell. It is an aggressive midrange creature deck with a toolbox of answers for various games, and a mana denial plan when it is beneficial.
Instead of trying to add the Blue one in for its synergy with KotR, what about the White retreat? Retreat to Emeria 3W, Landfall: Put a 1/1 white Ally into play, or creatures get +1/1 until EOT. The +1/1 seems meh, but the 1/1 ally seems decent as a backup plan against Miracles or really grindy matchups. Don't want to commit too many creatures to the board and are under a Counterbalance lock? Drop a fetch land and get a triggered 1/1 that can potentially force through last points of damage. If we get Terminused or Verdicted just fetch with the land and get a 1/1 back.
The black retreat seems ok too: Retreat to Hagra 2B, Landfall: creature gets +1/0 and Deathtouch, or each opponent loses 1 you gain 1. That right there seems to work well with KotR without having to stretch colors. Since the mode isn't locked in on resolution of the Enchantment we can be versatile with it which I like a lot. Something about slamming a Thalia turn 2, and a Retreat turn 3 to give a First Strike/Deathtouch blocker seems fine to me.
The green one works just as well IMHO. Retreat to Kazandu 2G: Landfall, put a +1/1 counter on a dude, or gain 2 life. Drop a fetch land and put a +1/1 on KotR (assume no cards in bin) for a 2/2 (+1 counter) Knight. Fetch with that land, landfall trigger again and a land in bin for Knight 3/3 (+2 counter) for a 5/5 with 1 land "utilized". Since DRS is rampant in the format our Knight's P/T is in constant "control" by opposing players with DRS. With the Green retreat we can control it back a little more ourselves and force value out of the Knight.
The white retreat seems better to me, solely on the fact it has 4 CMC so it cannot be targeted with AD. I also really like the reach and play it gives against Miracles and the fact it is 4 mana instead of 3 is super relevant when Miracles only has JtMS as a 4 drop in most lists and Supreme Verdict out the board. The main lock focus for Miracles seems to be 1-3, 5 for FoW. After looking at a few lists from the past few Legacy events the number of Supreme Verdict has gone down (I was able to find 1 out of the 3 decklists from the last SCG tracked event).
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Is there any though tot Woodland Wanderer 3G 2/2 Vigilance, trample. Enters with +1/1 counter for each different color mana used to cast. With access to 3 colors with lands, and the other two through DRS/BoP/NH could this creature see play? 4 mana doesn't die to AD. Vigilance, trample to get over TNN. Potentially becomes a 6/6 for 4 mana with upsides. Maybe the cost of needing the other colors is too much, seeing as how we can't GSZ for him or be the saddest green mages in all the land.
The new Kiora seems interesting to me if we go with a blue splash. Untapping lands and creatures (KotR, Mana dorks, etc.) is ok. She seems focused around finding and dealing with creatures and lands, which are the main portion of Maverick. Probably not worth the 4 mana since it doesn't have enough impact on the game and seems more of a Win More in most scenarios. Same thought about Woodland Wanderer.
I'll just drop a few brief comments since I was recently experimenting with a blue and light black splash. I need to do more testing.
I wanted to add Brainstorm + Snapcaster Mage + Spell Pierce to the deck.
The reasoning was that Brainstorm helps avoid bad early and late game card draws. This is obviously extremely valuable.
I wanted Snapcaster Mage to double up on StP's in the creature based matchups without gaining extra dead cards in the other matchups. StP is obviously a very good card in most creature based matchups. SCM is also good vs Planeswalkers (eot Snapcaster attacking) and works really well with equipments.
Finally I wanted Spell Pierce to get some protection vs control and combo and to use with Snapcaster Mage in the matchups where StP is a dead card. Playing Thalia, Wasteland and KotR may keep Spell Pierces relevant throughout even long games.
I was playing a Dark Maverick version and intend to keep Deathrites as black card in the main and Zealous Persecution as black card in the sideboard, replacing some maindeck Abrupt Decays and sideboard Thoughtseizes. Abrupt Decay could be Council's Judgment and Thoughtseizes are not the best, I believe, in a DTT meta. I'm leaning more towards permanent based hate. Meddling Mage is a possible addition in that department.
I removed the Depths + Stage package to make room for more lands. Perhaps Cavern of Souls would be good, Snapcaster Mage is a valuable addition to the human suite and it does cover up for the missing uncounterability of the Abrupt Decays. Can even be used with Qasali Pridemage to get rid of a Counterbalance.
I like the Cavern a lot against Miracles. I am running a more strict GW list so I was using Gaea's Cradle as a 1 of to go crazy with mana, I can see replacing this in my list with Cavern. If I were to switch over to a more synced creature base, a 2nd one might not be out of the question. The ones that would be relevant I can think of are Human, Wizard, and Shaman.Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
Human Package:
- Sylvan Safekeeper
- KotR
- Eternal Witness
- Noble Hierarch
- Mother of Runes
- Snapcaster Mage
- Ethersworn Canonist
- Peacekeeper
- Meddling Mage
Wizard Package:
- Snapcaster Mage
- Sylvan Safekeeper
- Aven Mindcensor
- Qasali Pridemage
- Meddling Mage
Shaman Package:
- Eternal Witness
- Deathrite Shaman