All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I never paid much attention to extended, but the Modern ban list philosophy seems like it's based on marketing moreso than the Legacy ban list philosophy.

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Sensei's Divining Top got banned because it (1) was absolutely everywhere, and (2) it made everything take a long time. #2 probably wouldn't have mattered if not for #1.

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Why is there a turn four rule in Modern (but not Legacy)?

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Because in Legacy it's a turn three rule instead. Or so they claimed, anyway:
"First, we have a rule of thumb about Legacy that we don't like consistent turn-two combination decks, but that turn-three combination decks are okay. We modified that rule for Modern by adding a turn to each side: we are going to allow turn-four combination decks, but not decks that consistently win the game on turn three."

Before anyone claims blah blah Spanish Inqusition, blah blah Goblin Charbelcher, it's worth remembering that those decks aren't particularly good. The only particularly competitive deck I can think of that can challenge that by wining before turn 3 is Storm, though I'm not sure its actual percentages of kills on turns 1 or 2.

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If a combo deck is dominant and oppressive, they don't need an extra rule to justify the ban! The purpose of the T4 rule is to facilitates bans to kill decks which are not OP. Why would WotC want to kill (or curb) a deck which is not OP? Because that deck is not "fun".

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While I don't like the turn 4 rule myself and think decks should be banned on actual dominance rather than merely being good and ticking off an arbitrary criteria, I believe the idea is that even if such decks aren't "dominant," those decks being good (decks don't get banned simply for winning consistently before turn 4, but for being doing so and being "top tier") warps the metagame by forcing out anything that has difficulty interacting.

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And that's all there is to it. In Modern, WotC will not allow anything that will turn off the player base. This includes fast combo, but also slow, grindy, control. Legacy has always allowed for every slow and very fast decks. It's well known that some players don't like those decks, but I think the target audience for eternal has always been people who enjoy less conventional strategies and/or who have a thicker skin.

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Sensei's Divining Top gets a pass in Legacy largely because it doesn't see as much play as it did in Extended or would in Modern. Think about what you get for casting and activating Top: For two mana, you get to look at the top three cards of your library and reorder them. You can then draw a card if you're willing to effectively skip your next draw step. Meanwhile, Ponder for one mana will let you look at the top three cards, reorder them, shuffle them all away if you want, then draw a card without skipping your next draw. While you can shuffle them with Top if you have a fetchland, Ponder will shuffle it by itself.

Basically, why play Top when Ponder gives you a more powerful effect for less mana? In the long run Sensei's Divining Top manages to be more powerful with its continual card selection, but it takes a while for that to take effect, whereas Ponder pays off instantly. So you normally only are playing Top if you either can't play Brainstorm/Ponder or if you get some kind of special usage out of it like Miracles. If you didn't have cantrips as powerful as Brainstorm and Ponder, then Top would see a ton more play and would likely get a ban in Legacy.

I continue my complaining. Show and tell has the same power level like Oath of druids. Survival is much less broken than those two. Come on wizards.

Oath >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Show. Oath takes blue derp 2 card combo and makes it derp 1 card combo. Also, Oath with 4 x Brainstorm alleviates the only problem which is having your Oath targets in your hand.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

The only particularly competitive deck I can think of that can challenge that by wining before turn 3 is Storm, though I'm not sure its actual percentages of kills on turns 1 or 2.

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Omnitell can win on turn 2 as it runs Sol lands that if drawn would enable it to cast S&T then.
MUD does have draws that can kill on tun 2, but it is Magical Christmas Land level of unlikely. Elves I think can kill on turn 2, but I am not certain on that.

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Originally Posted by raudo

Show and tell has the same power level like Oath of druids.

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Umm, WTF...

Seriously,no S&T is no where near the same level as Oath, S&T is 2 cards, and you opponent gets to drop something as well, Oath is 1 card and normally does not affect your opponent directly. Oath has been busted since it was released, and only gets better over time, S&T was a weak and underpowered card until MARO started power-creeping up the creatures and released Emrakul and Grisslebrand.

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Originally Posted by raudo

Survival is much less broken than those two.

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It is weaker then Oath, but I am fairy certain it is stronger then S&T. Survival works well with ALLOT of cards, and maked them broken on its own. while there are what 3 overpowered cards S&T is broken with.

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Originally Posted by raudo

I continue my complaining. Show and tell has the same power level like Oath of druids. Survival is much less broken than those two. Come on wizards.

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Oath is insane. Have you read the card text on Forbidden Orchard?

Unbanning survival doesn't seem nearly as scary in an OmniTell/AbruptDecay/MonasteryMentor meta with RiP and Surgical Extraction as sideboard options. Not that I particularly relish the idea of salad elemental beats...

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Originally Posted by raudo

I continue my complaining. Show and tell has the same power level like Oath of druids. Survival is much less broken than those two. Come on wizards.

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Also S&T is much stronger than mind desire or yawgmoth's Bargain, they should unban those too!

And survival is a really safe card to unban, is cool that a freaking gw midrange can burst you for 16 damage while is entire deck is now a 1 mana demonic tutor :laugh:


Being serious, i would love frantic to be unbanned, but maybe is a bit too much.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Unbanning survival doesn't seem nearly as scary in an OmniTell/AbruptDecay/MonasteryMentor meta with RiP and Surgical Extraction as sideboard options. Not that I particularly relish the idea of salad elemental beats...

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Not to say Stp->Snapcaster->StP against salad elemental.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

I can't find anything by him singling out Tron. There was that Modern article he wrote a while ago when he was complaining about there being too many uninteractive decks and that Jund/Junk was the only thing that could handle them because it had "catch all" spells like Thoughtseize while everyone else had to just hope for drawing their hate (though this seems less valid now due to the Delver decks re-emerging), with no specification of Tron.

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At GP:Charlotte he was playing against Tim Turner on RG Tron and lost to some broken starts, after which he loudly complained about the uninteractive nature of Tron to people at the tournament. I don't know if you were at GP Charlotte or not, but I clearly got that sentiment from Paolo after that match.

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I don't know the full context, but floating an idea is very different from actually advocating it or thinking it could happen.

Basically, there is absolutely no good reason to believe the Tron lands are in any danger whatsoever in Modern. I'd be more worried about a fetchland ban than the Tron lands. (note: I think there's no chance of a fetchland ban. It's still more likely)

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I don't think they'll ban Tron either, but the removal of 8th/9th edition certainly is an interesting idea.

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Originally Posted by sjmcc13

Omnitell can win on turn 2 as it runs Sol lands that if drawn would enable it to cast S&T then.
MUD does have draws that can kill on tun 2, but it is Magical Christmas Land level of unlikely. Elves I think can kill on turn 2, but I am not certain on that.

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Oh, I know they can win on turn 2. But I don't think they can do it consistently.

I continue my one man fight comparing Show and tell against Oath of Druids.

Oath of druids works only your upkeep. It needs creature for an opponent who has millions of ways to get rid of it.
He can benefit from Oath and just destroy it his own turn.

Meanwhile show and tell. You just play this not skill intensive card and win. Back it up with gazillion of counterspells and cantrips. All blue.

Survival is horrible compared to both of these.

I have played all these decks. My two cents.

There are few things that bind people together in this thread but you will find few here though that will agree with you.

Let's hope my order of a few Earthcrafts doesn't get canceled...

Really don't want to be priced out of my pet deck if/when the unbanning causes them to spike like mad.

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Originally Posted by raudo

I continue my one man fight comparing Show and tell against Oath of Druids.

Oath of druids works only your upkeep. It needs creature for an opponent who has millions of ways to get rid of it.
He can benefit from Oath and just destroy it his own turn.

Meanwhile show and tell. You just play this not skill intensive card and win. Back it up with gazillion of counterspells and cantrips. All blue.

Survival is horrible compared to both of these.

I have played all these decks. My two cents.

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I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of Oath (it's much more powerful and one sided than you made it out to be) but I do strongly agree with the rest.

With Oath, you need Forbidden Orchard. You still have to pass the turn. You cant pitch them to FoW. Opponent gets time to response. Creature is still summoning sick.

With Show and Tell. You play Omniscience and win. Fun?

Im not saying unban Oath. Im saying unban Survival or better yet, ban Show and Tell. I hope you all play couple of weeks against Omnitell. Very fun indeed. Try to build a Survival deck against it. Or Oath deck. People are just blind to see the powerlevel of Show and Tell cause they have used to it.

With Oath you need the opponent to have a creature, you don't need to have Orchard. Most decks do that themselves. If you play an Oath onto an empty board against a creature based deck you just lock them down. They can't play into it and your deck will be built to control anyway so if they try something else funny, you have answers.

It is not fair to compare Oath, a card that single handedly locks out whole decks, on its own let's you put a single choswn target in play fron your Library and happens to be on of the hardest class of permanents to remove to a card that, busted as it may be, 'only' drops a card fron your hand into play.

Oath tutors, cheats mana costs while it locks out whole strategies and if you think it's semantical at all, well I would not mind giving you a Delver if I get a Griselbrand. Seems fair.

Difference S&T - Oath of Druids:

1) CMC - 2U to 1G - this mean OoD is faster, but.. you must pass the turn so let say it's tide.

2) Both permanents doesn't have haste - tide, but while Oath fetch only a creature S&T can put any permanent - for example Omniscience which is probably closest "I win the game".

3) Symmetry - S&T is 100% symmetrical both players do the same - put permanent from hand to play, while Oath of Druids is conditional - proper build can break symmetry.

4) Activation of Oath of Druids feed graveyard stock, which open options - Show and Tell can't do that.

5) Show and Tell is two card combo - you need a good target in hand opposite to Oath of Druids which is conditional board state 1-card combo which is main reason why it is banned.

Show and tell should not be banned

1) Legacy is about doing powerful things. It is the only format outside of vintage where you can do that.

2) Legacy is not about grindy rock decks or fast agro which defines modern and standard

3) Are show and tell decks dominating like Miracles and Delver variants? The answer is of course no.
If all top 7/8 top decks in a 100+ tournament were show and tell decks, then I would agree, But this has never happened to my knowledge and if it did, it is
not consistent.
If Oath were unbanned, you might see 7/8 oath decks in top 8. Oath is good deck even in vintage.


4) This thread is about discussing the banning of cards, but we need to discuss the unbanning of cards and
banning show and tell is counter productive

5) Oath needs to stay banned for the reasons cited above, but survival does not and it was a knee jerk reaction the last time Wotc banned it. They
did not give the community long enough to adjust.

6) dig through time is also fair and needs to stay unbanned

7) I am tired of Wotc and their ban hammer. Look at how long Worldgorger dragon stayed on the banned list. I have not even seen one
WorldGorger dragon deck make top 16 let alone top 8.

8) Black Vise, Earthcraft, Survival of the Fittiest all need to come off. This will add more diversity to the format that is dominated by blue.

9) banning brainstorm is also a horrible idea. This card defines legacy. Let us be clear here Modern is worse than Legacy. It's not different.
It's worse. In Modern you pit 2 good/okay decks against each other in MTG history. In legacy you pit 2 of the most powerful decks in MTG history against each other. Let's take omnitell for example. Yes, you can win on turn 2 or 3. However, the other
guy/girl can play too. For example, first turn Thoughtseize, duress or force of will etc.

Sultai Delver 1st Bob Marshall StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Death and Taxes 2nd Travis Cowley StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Dredge 3rd Eric Copenhaver StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
4-Color Delver 4th Ben Rivello StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Miracles 5th Christopher Hawker StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Miracles 6th Bernard Liberati StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Miracles 7th Rob Long StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Grixis Delver 8th Jonathan Sukenik StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore


Starcity top 8 in baltimore - Not a single show and tell deck

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Originally Posted by dragonwisdom

Sultai Delver 1st Bob Marshall StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Death and Taxes 2nd Travis Cowley StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Dredge 3rd Eric Copenhaver StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
4-Color Delver 4th Ben Rivello StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Miracles 5th Christopher Hawker StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Miracles 6th Bernard Liberati StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Miracles 7th Rob Long StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore
Grixis Delver 8th Jonathan Sukenik StarCityGames.com Premier IQ 2015-06-28 Baltimore


Starcity top 8 in baltimore - Not a single show and tell deck

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... but how many DTT?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

... but how many DTT?

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Link

Eight out of a possible thirty-two in the top eight. Zero out of a possible sixteen in the top four. Twenty out of a possible sixty-four in the top sixteen.
I didn't check the D&T list. I hear decks can't compete without blue, so maybe they splashed?

Edit - two Delver decks in the top four without DTT. Is this a fluke, or is it possible that DTT has been overplayed lately and players are catching on? Serious question, I only play Lands these days and I'm not much of a tempo expert (I've never cast a Delver in my life).

Unfortunately I don't think we're going to see any changes. Dig just hasn't put up enough results to warrant a ban, and neither has anything else. I guess we've found a way to have a meta that's both not fun and balanced.

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Edit - two Delver decks in the top four without DTT. Is this a fluke, or is it possible that DTT has been overplayed lately and players are catching on? Serious question, I only play Lands these days and I'm not much of a tempo expert (I've never cast a Delver in my life).

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The big thing is that people have figured out that RUG and BUG aren't dead and actually have favorable matchups against UR and Grixis if you play and build them correctly. The Delver landscape is hazier than it was during the Cruise era, but the versions without Dig are still viable options.

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Originally Posted by btm10

Unfortunately I don't think we're going to see any changes. Dig just hasn't put up enough results to warrant a ban, and neither has anything else. I guess we've found a waybto have a meta that's both not fun and balanced.

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This. Ihate digthrough time. It suppresses A lot Things and its miserable for any non dig deck to even attempt to keep up With especially any non blue deck

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Originally Posted by btm10

Unfortunately I don't think we're going to see any changes.

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I'm still crossing my fingers for an unban or two, but I'm not holding my breath.

And unban might be a way to shake up a format (which many people seem bored with lately) without any controversial bannings.

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Originally Posted by btm10

Unfortunately I don't think we're going to see any changes. Dig just hasn't put up enough results to warrant a ban, and neither has anything else. I guess we've found a waybto have a meta that's both not fun and balanced.

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Which is why we need an UNbanning. Survival, Vise, Earthcraft, Recruiter, Hermit Druid, and Mind Twist could be unbanned safely to shake things up.

There's only three bans that make sense to me, in order of likeliness:

Top - for the same logistical reasons it was banned in Extended and Modern
Counterbalance - sometimes attacking the less broken card of a combo is more fun for the rest of the decks
Delver - if you want to go the "let's try make other aggro decks viable and ban Wild Nacatl" route

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

I'm still crossing my fingers for an unban or two, but I'm not holding my breath.

And unban might be a way to shake up a format (which many people seem bored with lately) without any controversial bannings.

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Unban Earthcraft/black Vise/Mind Twist--->nobody cares

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

This. I hate dig through time. It suppresses A lot Things and its miserable for any non dig deck to even attempt to keep up With especially any non blue deck

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Baltimore could be a fluke, but the successful Team America, Canadian Thresh, and 4-Colour Delver lists all declined to run DTT. Only U/R and Grixis ran it (for tempo decks).

Maybe it's not the best card some of these decks. Delver decks have been in recession lately - maybe dropping DTT will put them back on the map and shake the meta up a little?

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Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

Unban Earthcraft/black Vise/Mind Twist--->nobody cares

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I think lots of people would care, and fresh decks would be tested all around the world.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

Which is why we need an UNbanning. Survival, Vise, Earthcraft, Recruiter, Hermit Druid, Mind Twist, even maybe Mystical Tutor could be unbanned safely to shake things up.

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I think a fraction of that would be enough for a little shake-up. I can't see them unleashing all that at once. We'll be lucky to see a single card come off.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Link

Eight out of a possible thirty-two in the top eight. Zero out of a possible sixteen in the top four. I didn't check the D&T list. I hear decks can't compete without blue, so maybe they splashed?

Edit - two Delver decks in the top four without DTT. Is this a fluke, or is it possible that DTT has been overplayed lately and players are catching on? Serious question, I only play Lands these days and I'm not much of a tempo expert (I've never cast a Delver in my life).

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I just asked because I was witnessing that DTTs image problem is, that its fueling Delver decks at least as much als OmniTell or Miracles. I would go that far and say the mayority of DTT played in Legacy are within Delver shells

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I just asked because I was witnessing that DTTs image problem is, that its fueling Delver decks at least as much als OmniTell or Miracles. I would go that far and say the mayority of DTT played in Legacy are within Delver shells

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What's your take on the three Delver lists in the top sixteen (two in the top four) running without it? Do you think pilots got lucky despite some questionable card inclusion choices, or that maybe they are onto something?

I'm being completely sincere - tempo ain't my style.

Edit - obviously Delver decks have had success with DTT! And one event obviously doesnt erase that. I'm just wondering if it turns out the card is not a significant improvement (or even is a minor set-back) for certain Delver builds. I suppose I could browse through the last several pages of each of the five or so Delver threads...

If there's one thing that keeps me reading this thread it's the hilarious cognitive dissonance displayed by Legacy players shitting on Modern.

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Originally Posted by dragonwisdom

9) banning brainstorm is also a horrible idea. This card defines legacy. Let us be clear here Modern is worse than Legacy. It's not different.
It's worse. In Modern you pit 2 good/okay decks against each other in MTG history. In legacy you pit 2 of the most powerful decks in MTG history against each other. Let's take omnitell for example. Yes, you can win on turn 2 or 3. However, the other
guy/girl can play too. For example, first turn Thoughtseize, duress or force of will etc.

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Can we all just take a second to realize that Vintage is the place for the most powerful decks in MTG history, and Legacy is the place where you pit 2 good/okay decks (with an almost *completely* arbitrary ban list, we can all agree) against each other in MTG history? Like, come on, if you want to shit on Modern be my guest, you're on a Legacy forum, but stop justifying it with stuff like this.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

What's your take on the three Delver lists in the top sixteen (two in the top four) running without it? Do you think pilots got lucky despite some questionable card inclusion choices, or that maybe they are onto something?

I'm being completely sincere - tempo ain't my style.

Edit - obviously Delver decks have had success with DTT! And one event obviously doesnt erase that. I'm just wondering if it turns out the card is not a significant improvement (or even is a minor set-back) for certain Delver builds. I suppose I could browse through the last several pages of each of the five or so Delver threads...

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I don't dare to comment on tnis tournament or specific developments of aggro-control subtypes, but during the GP weekend EVERY Delver/Blade variant I faced played a certain number of DTTs

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

Which is why we need an UNbanning. Survival,

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Biased due to owning a play set, but it feels like the ban was never fully justified to me, and the power creep weakens its strength.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

Vise,

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I would love this due to owning multiple alpha printings, but this I am a bit on the fence about, as it is either a slightly better bolt, or a clock you can not deal with. Vise supports Land/Mana Denial/Desctuction strategies.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

Earthcraft,

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The combo is not what it once was, the game is aster then it was back then, and there are plenty of answers now. Th card is probably safe.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

Recruiter,

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Yes please, anyone familiar enough with their deck to be properly playing it in a tournament can pull off the search and stack in a couple minutes, Goblins also needs a boost.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

Hermit Druid,

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WTF are yo smoking, this card is NOT safe, it is a 1 card combo that goes off on turn 2, and can be built to be able to go off on turn 1... The card is not safe.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

and Mind Twist could be unbanned safely to shake things up.

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Without the artifact mana of vintage I think this card is safe, and if twist becomes a problem Misdirection (and similar cards) already handle it nicely.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

There's only three bans that make sense to me, in order of likeliness:

Top - for the same logistical reasons it was banned in Extended and Modern

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Logistics bans when the problem is the player and not the card do not make sense,
People complaining about top is the same problem as people complaining about Fetches taking to much time, 90% of the problem is not the card, but players who either do not know how to use the card properly, or are staling. The only time you should need to think heavily after a top is after a shuffle when there are 3 new cards, as opposed to 1 new card.
Wizards has needed to re-work the stalling rules for years,

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

Counterbalance - sometimes attacking the less broken card of a combo is more fun for the rest of the decks

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Counterbalance is not a problem, Heck they have made enough cards that get around it that it is not funny.
Cavern of Souls (ever notice that both Delver and Pyromancer share a creature type), Vexing Shusher, Abrupt Decay, a well timed Krosan Grip...

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

Delver - if you want to go the "let's try make other aggro decks viable and ban Wild Nacatl" route

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Delver is a mistake, and it probably deserves a ban.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I don't dare to comment on tnis tournament or specific developments of aggro-control subtypes, but during the GP weekend EVERY Delver/Blade variant I faced played a certain number of DTTs

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I think people are still trying it out; but I also think that the popularity of the Pyromancer+Dig Delver variants exceeds how good they are relative to RUG and BUG. Especially when you consider that their matchups against RUG and BUG (especially RUG) are pretty rough. I've been playing a Euro-style BUrG list for the past couple of weeks and it's been very good, but it uses Dig very differently from how the Pyromancer/Swiftspear lists use it.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

If there's one thing that keeps me reading this thread it's the hilarious cognitive dissonance displayed by Legacy players shitting on Modern.



Can we all just take a second to realize that Vintage is the place for the most powerful decks in MTG history, and Legacy is the place where you pit 2 good/okay decks (with an almost *completely* arbitrary ban list, we can all agree) against each other in MTG history? Like, come on, if you want to shit on Modern be my guest, you're on a Legacy forum, but stop justifying it with stuff like this.

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It's hilarious, the Legacy high horsers who look down on Modern don't realize Vintage zealots are laughing their asses off at their claims of power.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

It's hilarious, the Legacy high horsers who look down on Modern don't realize Vintage zealots are laughing their asses off at their claims of power.

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The sentiment of so many dozen Vintage players cuts deep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKie-vgUGdI

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Originally Posted by sjmcc13

The combo is not what it once was, the game is aster then it was back then, and there are plenty of answers now. Th card is probably safe.

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Squirrel Nest is kinda crappy; tapped 1/1s with summoning sickness are a lot worse than anything that runs Earthcraft can already do. The real danger of Earthcraft is how it turns every creature into a potentially crazy manadork, allowing allow multiple uses of a given land. An Argothian Enchantress can now tap for GG, GW, or something like WWWWWWWWWWWWWW, speeding the deck up a little bit while cantriping. Still, nothing really dangerous.

I have no idea if it would be played in Elves, but that's probably what gives anyone a bit of pause. Giving the deck another insane mana engine that'sa little more flexible (if less potent) than Sentinel/Druid might be scary. Then again, the deck is so tuned that it might not even fit in there.

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Originally Posted by Jamaican Zombie Legend

An Argothian Enchantress can now tap for something like WWWWWWWWWWWWWW

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Originally Posted by Earthcraft

Untap target basic land

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No. It's actually pretty shitty. No Cradles. Just basics.

Lol, ten years I've had one in a binder and I've never RTFC properly. Still can live the dream untapping multi-sprawled Forests. Enchantress....now skyrocketing to Tier 3!

Yeah, no reason not to unban.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

It's hilarious, the Legacy high horsers who look down on Modern don't realize Vintage zealots are laughing their asses off at their claims of power.

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At least in my area, a lot of the early Legacy players were disgruntled Vintage players who defected after the BS/Gush/Ponder/MS restrictions. As one local exasperatedly it - "they restricted blue"!

Some big differences though comparing Modern to Legacy vs comparing Legacy to Vintage.

Legacy and Vintage are managed by pretty much identical philosophies. The only difference is that imbalanced cards are banned in one format but restricted in the other. Anything that's not imbalanced is fair game (except ante, dexetertity, and side game mechanics).

Modern arbitrarily excludes half of the games history and is managed by is very different philosophy including using the banned list to enforce a desired artificial pace (and style) of play.

I won't "look down" on Modern nor its player base. But the very principles upon which it was founded turn me off personally. One day I'd like to try my hand with Valakut, just because I like winning with lands, but I doubt I'll ever be willing to pay for the cards.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

Some big differences though comparing Modern to Legacy vs comparing Legacy to Vintage.

Legacy and Vintage are managed by pretty much identical philosophies. The only difference is that imbalanced cards are banned in one format but restricted in the other. Anything that's not imbalanced is fair game (except ante, dexetertity, and side game mechanics).

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Hah, this sounded intelligent for a second.

Then I remembered the most common decks in Vintage play one (or more) set of the following banned Legacy cards.
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
4x Gush
4x Oath of Druids (usually accompanied by 2-4x Mana Drain)

The format defining decks in Vintage do not play singleton cards that are banned in Legacy. The most prominent Vintage decks are completely focused and built around using 4x the cards that are banned in Legacy.

Legacy's ban list doesn't follow rhyme or reason except for, as you put it, " using the banned list to enforce a desired artificial pace (and style) of play."