[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by jin

I was trying to avoid Lightning Crafter, but there you go. LOL. I quoted this one because I was working on it for awhile and couldn't figure it out. I could only deal 16 damage. What did I miss count?

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T1 Lackey
T2 Skirk Prospector + Goblin Sharpshooter
T3 MWM + Ringleader + SGC

T1 No damage
T2 Lackey attacks (19)
T3 Tap Sharpshooter (18)
Cast MWM, sac MWM, tap SS again (17)
Sac both tokens, tap SS twice (15)
Cast Ringleader
Attack With Ringleader + Lackey + Prospector (11)
Put SGC into play
Sac 2 tokens for mana and one for SGC, tap SS thrice (6)
Sac Lackey + Ringleader for mana and SGC to itself, tap SS thrice (1)
Sac Prospector for mana, untap SS one last time to kill. (0)


As for the new goblin, it's on page 303 starting on post #6049. And yeah, RR is just not going to be good enough I suppose, but even at 1R he'd have a hard time making it in.

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Originally Posted by InResponseForceOfWill

No discussion on here yet about the newly spoiled Goblin Wardriver? I don't think he'll see play. If he was 1R instead of RR, I'd sure as hell make room for some.

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go a few pages back, we went through it already

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Originally Posted by Nameless One

T1 Lackey
T2 Skirk Prospector + Goblin Sharpshooter
T3 MWM + Ringleader + SGC

T1 No damage
T2 Lackey attacks (19)
T3 Tap Sharpshooter (18)
Cast MWM, sac MWM, tap SS again (17)
Sac both tokens, tap SS twice (15)
Cast Ringleader
Attack With Ringleader + Lackey + Prospector (11)
Put SGC into play
Sac 2 tokens for mana and one for SGC, tap SS thrice (6)
Sac Lackey + Ringleader for mana and SGC to itself, tap SS thrice (1)
Sac Prospector for mana, untap SS one last time to kill. (0)

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Wow, I got up to 6, but I just couldn't figure out how to finish. That was great. Makes me rethink the values of skirk prospector...

Another fun one:

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief + Warchief
T3 Matron + Skirk Prospector + Sharsphooter + Matron + Matron + Matron + SGC

T1 Lackey
T2 Lackey + Lackey + SGC
T3 Chieftain + Skirk Prospector

T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Skirk Prospector + Skirk Prospector
T3 Warchief + MWM + Ringleader + MWM + Ringleader + MWM + Matron + MWM + Warchief + Matron + Ringleader + Piledriver + Piledriver

The above one is absolutely ridiculous ofcourse... (if you add some SGC/Lackey/Stingscourgers you can even pull this off against blockers though)

T1 Lackey
T2 Lookout + Chieftain
T3 Lookout + Mogg Fanatic

T1 Vial
T2 MWM + Skirk Prospector + Warchief
T3 Instigator + Ringleader + Lookout + (SGC/Lightning Bolt/Sharpshooter)

^ that is probably more elegantly played this way:
T1 Skirk Prospector
T2 Instigator
T3 MWM + Warchief + Lookout + Sharpshooter/SGC, but well then you'd be 1 damage short! And we can't all have Prospector on turn 1 ;)

And another three without a 2 drop this time (opening up for t2 removal on a blocker):

T1 Lackey
T2 SGC
T3 Chieftain + Skirk Prospector + Lightning Bolt

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief
T3 Piledriver + MWM + MWM

T1 Lackey
T2 Warchief
T3 Piledriver + Piledriver + (Lightning Bolt/Lackey/Mogg Fanatic/MWM/Stingscourger/Bushwhacker/Lookout/Tar Fire/Goblin Mime...)

And another vial one:

T1 Vial
T2 Piledriver + (Skirk Prospector/Lackey/Mogg Fanatic/Bushwhacker)
T3 Piledriver + Chieftain

If I get it correctly, Lackey + Piledriver + Kiki need no other card to be a turn 3 kill. Just make a copy at opponent's end step, so that it stays around for your turn and attack for 22 with triple Piledriver plus Lackey.

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Originally Posted by bruno_tiete

If I get it correctly, Lackey + Piledriver + Kiki need no other card to be a turn 3 kill. Just make a copy at opponent's end step, so that it stays around for your turn and attack for 22 with triple Piledriver plus Lackey.

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You got it correcty.

Hey Two,

What does your current list look like?

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Originally Posted by bruno_tiete

If I get it correctly, Lackey + Piledriver + Kiki need no other card to be a turn 3 kill. Just make a copy at opponent's end step, so that it stays around for your turn and attack for 22 with triple Piledriver plus Lackey.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

You got it correcty.

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Wait just a minute! I thought the whole "In Response To The End Of The End Phase" stopped working circa 2000. People always tried adding mana in response to the end of their opponent's turn, then using that mana at the end of their untap step to combo off. But that doesn't work anymore, right? You can't do something in response to the end of the turn because priority still has to pass before turn ends. There's no gray area between turns, so you can't make a Piledriver token that would stay around for next turn.

In other words, I believe you guys are mistaken.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Wait just a minute! I thought the whole "In Response To The End Of The End Phase" stopped working circa 2000. People always tried adding mana in response to the end of their opponent's turn, then using that mana at the end of their untap step to combo off. But that doesn't work anymore, right? You can't do something in response to the end of the turn because priority still has to pass before turn ends. There's no gray area between turns, so you can't make a Piledriver token that would stay around for next turn.

In other words, I believe you guys are mistaken.

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A lot of cards say: Untill the beginning of the next end step...

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Originally Posted by bruno_tiete

If I get it correctly, Lackey + Piledriver + Kiki need no other card to be a turn 3 kill. Just make a copy at opponent's end step, so that it stays around for your turn and attack for 22 with triple Piledriver plus Lackey.

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Works I believe, I should've read Kiki-Jiki and figured that out ... guess I've become too confident in my card-knowledge...

As for (nameless one):

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Warren Instigator
1 Skirk Prospector
3 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Stingscourger

4 Aether Vial

4 Mutavault
18 Mountain

Sideboard:

3 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Relic of the Progenitus
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Because I don't use Wasteland I feel comfortable running 22 lands, the 2 Warren Instigators in the main deck are very nice against combo, which comes around in many variations (Belcher/Storm Enchantress/Eggstorm/Dream Halls/Ad Nauseam/Depths). There is also quite a bit of Merfolk around, so I like to have all 4 Gempalm Incinerators in there as well as the Stingscourgers. (Bouncing a lord can sometimes be enough to turn combat in your favor.)
The Stingscourgers have nearly always been great, but I think 2 is enough, often when you need them you can find them. The 1 Skirk Prospector is there just because I like the guy. And I hate keeping hands without 1 drops.

The Sideboard is a bit whacky. Quite a few Engineered Plagues come around, so thats why there are 4 lords in the board. I often just take out one or two Ringleaders, a Siege-Gang and the Warren Instigators.
The Jittes are there to fight off other Jittes (Often in aggro vs aggro, Jittes are very good, so I figured, why not play them instead of artifact hate?)
The Scrapper is there to tutor for if you get completely owned by some artifacts (like Jitte)...
I take out a Ringleader, a Chieftain and a Stingscourger just because I have to make the cuts somewhere.
Against Stompy/Slivers/Zoo I board in the War Marshals, Sharpshooter and the Jittes. Taking out the Stingscourger, a Matron an Instigator and a Vial.
Reanimator needs Relics, unfortunately they also bring in Plagues, so I have to board in lots, often the Vials have to go here...
Against non-creature combo, I take out the Stingscourgers & Incinerators and put in the Mogg War Marshals, Chieftain, Sharpshooter and a Liege. (although I'm starting to believe I should put a Kiki-Jiki in my board)
The combo players in my area simply don't have all the cards to make their decks the best possible builds. Without the LEDs you can actually try to race the Belcher player for example...
There is no pure control deck in my area...

So all in all, this information was probably mostly useless, just because I never play on big tournaments. My deck is kind of converted to mini-metagame version of Goblins. That doesn't mean I can't think big. I know what is out there...

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

In other words, I believe you guys are mistaken.

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Kiki Jiki reads: Tap: Put a token that's a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control onto the battlefield. That token has haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.

End Step is, well, a Step... and you can do things in that Step, like copying something with Kiki-Jiki. Since the beginning of your opponents End Step has already passed, you will only need to sacrifice the creature "at the beginning of the next end step", also known as your End Step, so the creature survives to attack in your turn.

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Originally Posted by Nameless Two

The Sideboard is a bit whacky. Quite a few Engineered Plagues come around, so thats why there are 4 lords in the board. I often just take out one or two Ringleaders, a Siege-Gang and the Warren Instigators.
...
The Scrapper is there to tutor for if you get completely owned by some artifacts (like Jitte)...
I take out a Ringleader, a Chieftain and a Stingscourger just because I have to make the cuts somewhere.
...
Against Stompy/Slivers/Zoo I board in the War Marshals, Sharpshooter and the Jittes. Taking out the Stingscourger, a Matron an Instigator and a Vial.
...
Reanimator needs Relics, unfortunately they also bring in Plagues, so I have to board in lots, often the Vials have to go here...

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1 - I think you're taking out Ringleaders too often. I mean, if we dillute our deck, bringing in non-goblin cards, it's acceptable taking them out, but you're bringing in 4 Goblins, and taking out Ringleader? That's just wrong.
2 - Don't take Vial out against Stompy. Their the best out you have against Chalice / 3Sphere. And don't take Matron either. It can search for high cc goblins, that win the game, like SGC.
3 - Vial needs to stay against Reanimator. Their your best shot against an reanimated Iona (by best I mean only). Here I think it could be acceptable to take out a Ringleader, because you really don't want to win the game on the back of card-advantege, but you want to race them.

Scatman X, you are right!

I often find myself with many Ringleaders or Matrons that can find Ringleaders anyways, which is why they so often get the cut... I should probably not do it... but have any better suggestions? Keep in mind that there are high converted manacost goblins coming in aswell...

Ah yeah, the local stompy version doesn't run Chalice/3Sphere, its a green stompy deck, quite unlike the Faerie/Dragon stompy versions... sorry for confusing you all!

Vials, keep em in against Reanimator... ofcourse I should do that, that was just stupid.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

A lot of cards say: Untill the beginning of the next end step...

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Kiki Jiki reads: Tap: Put a token that's a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control onto the battlefield. That token has haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.

End Step is, well, a Step... and you can do things in that Step, like copying something with Kiki-Jiki. Since the beginning of your opponents End Step has already passed, you will only need to sacrifice the creature "at the beginning of the next end step", also known as your End Step, so the creature survives to attack in your turn.

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I never knew that Kiki had errata. The printed text is just "Sacrifice it at end of turn."

Are there any other fun goblins tricks you all know?

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

I never knew that Kiki had errata. The printed text is just "Sacrifice it at end of turn."

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I don't think that's an errata for Kiki but all older effects reading "Sacrifice it at end of turn" now trigger at the beginning of the end step. Or am I incorrect with that?

All this talk of EOT Kiki makes me wanna try it =)
This is my current deck, i am thinking about taking out my cheiftain or a MWM. Any opinions?

CREATURES (31)
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Siege-Gang Commander
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

INSTANTS (3)
3 Lightning Bolt

ARTIFACTS (4)
4 Aether Vial

LANDS (22)
14 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

SIDEBOARD
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Goblin Chieftain
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vexing Shusher

Kiki jiki is actually terrible. Its the definition of a win more card. If they have removal, he way worse than a ringleader or a siege gang. If they don't have removal, you should be winning anyways.

Nameless, I highly recommend cutting mutavaults for wastelands and ports. This deck is so much worse without them.

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Originally Posted by JonBarber

Kiki jiki is actually terrible. Its the definition of a win more card. If they have removal, he way worse than a ringleader or a siege gang. If they don't have removal, you should be winning anyways.

Nameless, I highly recommend cutting mutavaults for wastelands and ports. This deck is so much worse without them.

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Kiki - Jiki is probably only good in the combo matchup. Since they lack removal...

And I know Jon, I just don't have the Wastelands and Ports. It plays different without them for sure...

Kiki-Jiki is not terrible. It gives you the edge in matchups where you must play as a control player, generating incredible card advantage. Even if your opponent has a removal, kiki has haste, so you can copy a matron or ringleader or anything. Actually, is very rare that kiki gets killed, because usually at the time when you play kiki, your opponent has played his removal in other goblins.

It's like Wort, but wort costs 1 less and dosn't have haste. I still think that comparing him with SGC is not correct, because SGC is much more mana dependant, and his role usually revolves around giving you instant win (when dropped with lackey) or delivering the last points of damage.
Kiki's role is usually overwhelming an aggro opponent when the match has reached the late game.

But really, Kiki is a complement to SGC and to all the deck. I like to think of him as the goblin planeswalker, because every turn you get a bunch of new effects and cards. And, he is so much fun! :tongue:

Ps: Try testing him against Zoo, he's been great for me.

I agree, he's great, but only when you've landed a Matron, or a Ringleader, or a Siege-Gang Commander- cards that give you the inevitable CA that wins you the MU's when you need them. Furthermore, you're valuing SGC wrong - he's as good of a control tool as he is an aggressive tool. On top of all this, those 3 sources of CA are strong on their own (ripping them off the top) and fairly strong against removal.

Kiki can also do great Job with MWM, Piledriver or Chieftain or even Sharshooter in Play. So I dont see the reason not playing him. He a ridiculous CA machine and want to be played.
Btw. Stingscouger and Kiki in Play is a Bounce every Round.

Is it really necessary to list all the things Kiki-Jiki can do with the rest of the deck? It doesn't take a genius to see that he is golden when there are other goblins on the battlefield, but therein lies the problem; Kiki NEEDS other goblins to be effective. Hell, Kiki needs other creatures to be of any use at all! If you're gonna be running a 5cc goblin, I don't see any reason to choose Kiki over SGC. Both cards can break stalemates, but Commander is less dead in more situations.

- SGC has a less prohibitive mana cost, and let's face it, you're not always gonna be able to cheat your bombs onto the battlefield.
- Who would you rather drop turn 2 during a Lackey activation? SGC gets my vote.
- And the number 1 reason to not run Kiki: He is a DEAD top deck whereas a top decked SGC can swing the game in your favor, if not win it outright. Of course, a competent goblin player would do their best to avoid this scenario, but alas, it does happen from time to time.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Kiki-Jiki when he gets going, but in the end, I'll take the safer (if not equally powerful) bet in SGC.