I was thinking the same thing. Portent is better for miracles, Ponder is better if looking for lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
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I was thinking the same thing. Portent is better for miracles, Ponder is better if looking for lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
I think a reasonable swap would be to cutdown to 3ish predicts, 2 counterspells, 1 Vclique, 0 entrea and add 4 portents + 1 Terminus.
I'm having so much fun with Unexpectedly Absent and Predict.
You're insane if you cut any Ponders.
Fun does not equate to competitive; I can describe anything as cute or fun. This is essentially 2-card to generate small CA while dealing with a permanent. If you only have UA, the best you can do is to catch your opponent off-guard when he breaks a fetch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
I have no preference on the UA+Predict package, as we should innovate, but why does this package have to be in Miracles Control? Could I not run this package in a non-Miracles Stoneblade/TNN shell? As in, why in this thread? Why not create a separate deck/thread that would center around this package? I would imagine something fair in Esper would be great, why is this a good fit?
What you're describing is a package, and idea, but not a deck around it. It's here in this thread because Whitefaces is still playing it in the Terminus shell since the whole package is able to manipulate the top card of the library. We're not trying to cheese with time walking the opponent over and over again, he's playing it in a competitive shell because Terminus is still totally sustainable and still powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
How is the 3 CB + 4 Portent build working for everyone? I've been doing very well in my limited testing. Again, fuck the CFA exam.
I'm running the 3 CB + 4 BS + 4 Portent + 3 Ponder. Sometimes it's annoying to look for a land via Portent, found it, but missing the land drop because you cannot draw the land that turn. The synergy of Portent + Terminus is golden. One game I found Terminus in the last possible turn via Portent, getting rid of TNN. That's about as good as it could get in the post SDT world.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
Very tempted to run 10 Blue cantrips + 1 more land. The tempo delver decks with Stifle can be rough with the typical 20 lands.
I'm re-considering soothsaying as an option on the table, so many directions.
You are all playing way way to few cantrips.
The reason miracles was so good was because it was very consistent. If you count top as a cantrip most lists had 12-16 cantrips. Now most of you seem to think you can do the same with only 8-10 while replacing the other cards with unless stuff. You can try that for a while but you will never find it as consistent, the stuff you get to play in the extra slots might look good though. Trying to go down on cantrips when you don't have top is insanity, you should go the other way and add more. We all know that the deck can sink a mana or two into cantriping almost every turn and be fine, otherwise we wouldn't have been able to use top before the ban.
Top was pretty insane that it turned every fetchland into a cantrip. With that in mind having the full 12x 1cmc cantrips seems to be most logical concession to make. Besides if our deck just wants to play key spells and Snap them back over and over again (Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorm, Predict, etc) I could never view running more cantrips as wrong.
Hi guys, long time lurker and first poster here.
I tried the UA+predict engine tonight (2-4 each) with 3 terminus and I find it to be really good for CA and to set instant speed terminus. Things i've noticed 1) u don't really need to always cast instant speed terminus as the card is plenty good when u cast it in your draw step and 2) UA is not the portent enabler as some people think, it is simply another permanent removal that goes well with predict. Bs+predict, ponder+predict, jace+predict (I played 3 jaces) is the real CA engine and incidentally it also help casting terminus at instant speed.
Portent is pretty bad as it doesn't help with land drop and I think is too much of an issue for it to be playable. As other used said I will play the full 4 ponder and 4 brainstorm and even some preordains (or portent if someone think it is really worth) it). I tried 4 snap 2 clique 3 jace as my wincons and I swapped the cliques with 2 mentor as they don't die to reb effects and because we can't counterlock the opponent and we need to close the game fast. We play a lot of "air" so mentor is still good. 3-4 counterspell and even some fluster storm maindeck are pretty much mandatory right now.
Sorry for the wall text and hoping to help in the conversation :tongue:
Portent should always be played in tandem with a playset of Ponders. If you sequence Portent as the first and last cantrips you would cast in a game missing land drops wouldnt be the problem.
Portent is absolutely critical to the function of this deck. If anything, I think the main points up for debate right now are the ratio of counterbalance to counterspell/spell pierce & council's judgment vs Absent vs oredcit ratios.
This is the core:
* 20 lands (Maybe 19 if we go heavy on predict?
* 4 Ponder
* 4 Portent
* 4 Brainstorm
* 4 Force
* 4 STP
* 4 Terminus
* 4 Snapcaster
* 3 Jace
Regarding to the choices of cantrip, apart from portent and predict, is it good to jam 1 or 2 See Beyond? It doesn't create CA, but it guarantees two new cards plus a shuffling effect (get rid unwanted miracle card or lands), without any setup required. I can see out of 4 predict, there can swap 1 or 2 with See Beyond.
Unexpected Absent is not a very good removal, it is questionable to play it just for accommodating full set of predict.
Going too heavy on cantrips past the initial 12 removes any room for counterbalance. You guys are sleeping on the card, it's extremely easy to setup in this shell.
Edit: Just played vs osmanogunez with Turbo Depths. I got him, but his build with portents looked strong.
Edit 2: So I played around 5 matches with the predict+counterbalance build listed below on MTGO and jesus christ - this feels VERY reminiscent of the old DTT era Miracles deck. You just bury your opponents in virtual and real CA. Maybe it's because most forms of anti-miracles hate has left the format, but this feels very strong.
* 4 Flooded Strand
* 4 Scalding Tarn
* 2 Arid Mesa
* 3 Island
* 2 Plains
* 2 Volcanic Island
* 3 Tundra
* 4 Snapcaster Mage
* 1 Unexpectedly Absent (Unexpectedly easier to use than Council's Judgment). Predict trick is just icing on the cake.
* 3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
* 4 Portent
* 4 Ponder
* 4 Brainstorm
* 3 Predict
* 4 Swords to Plowshares
* 4 Terminus
* 1 Counterspell
* 1 Spell Pierce
* 4 Force of Will
* 3 Counterbalance
Sideboard
* 3 Pyroblast
* 2 Blood Moon
* 2 Disenchant (Wear/Tear is kind of mediocre these days)
* 2 Surgical Extraction
* 1 Containment Priest
* 2 Ethersworn Canonist
* 1 Flusterstorm
* 2 Vendilion Clique
Been waiting all morning to post this. http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...gue-2017-05-19
It's happening!!!!
Is that seriously 0 STP maindeck?
I'll let him elaborate, but he likes the core of his decks to be as "blue" as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
I've been playing with the shell too, it feels really good. Predict is still great.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
I've tried Counterbalance and come to the conclusion that it's not good enough though. You use a lot of resources to maintain it when those resources can be used to deal with what the opponent is doing anyway. And when it's bad its been really bad.
I also feel like a splash is unnecessary now.
Very excited to hear more about that 5-0 modo list. The 0 maindeck StP kinda scares me too but the deck looks very consistent.
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You held out on us :cool: Finally I see something I like for GP:LV.Quote:
Originally Posted by It Is Unfair
That list looks sweetQuote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
Just explain the rationale behind 0 STP main-deck, and the 4 (4!!!) Unexpectedly Absents in the main-deck. What cards are the Absents shining against?
Unexpected + Portent + Predict + JTMS = a soft lock that time walks the opponent repeatedly until you trivialize their threats with your infinite card advantage engine. Absent is an enabler for it. You likely will want some number of plows in the main, but you can handle almost everything if you setup Terminus at the correct time. The concept isn't to terminus when you can, terminus when you have to, and then untap and slam or time walk them repeatedly. It might seem cute but it happened a lot in the league he played. He time walked Bahra_ 5 times while ticking up to a Jace ultimate :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
EDIT: Remember that this is just a shell, a first draft. It will need a lot more work and tuning, but it's a proof of concept :)
People get too excited over the 0 MD StP. The more interesting aspect is the lack of Red Blast effect, no red splash, focus on B2B. Instead, there's 1 Hydro blast. That's a more revealing trend, or just MTGO inbreed.
Keep in mind MTGO has very few DnT decks, many players refuse to get digital Ports, even if they have the tix. This is the opposite of real life paper event. Therefore if your goal is GP:LV, you need to adjust accordingly.
Pyroblast was, while still good against a lot of other decks, primarily for the mirror. My first few drafts of the deck were UWr still, but it's unnecessary imo. Back to Basics has been fantastic in doing a Blood Moon impression. Without Counterbalance to lock up the late game I feel like the deck needs something with as high impact as B2B/Moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Hydroblast is indeed a nod to the MTGO meta, there's a lot of red decks. It might not be needed irl.
FWIW one of the matches ItIsUnfair played against during that league was Bahra on DnT, who he easily 2-0'dQuote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
That's a bit of a exaggeration. I only got to do it like 3 times before I found entreat to win with that instead. And I was brainstorming with Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
Absent is good against any non-land permanent, even if you only cast it on something low impact such as a Deathrite Shaman in order to set up one of your predicts. Its best against CotV and planeswalkers, something that most of the other lists had big problems with and where you trade even or up in mana efficiency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
The 0 maindeck stp was an experiment. I think it worked well over all, at least in that league, but for a GP or such 2 Swords to Plowshares is probably necessary in the maindeck, just so that you aren't completely dead to a game one Gaddock Teeg or Goblin Guide, and it is also nice to have a removal that is better with snapcaster mage. However I don't think all 4 is necessary in the 75, that is just way to much removal and you will struggle with many other things.
In terms of GP preparation, what about the commitment for B2B and no Red splash? Pyro shines against Show and Tell, and some BUG mid-range (multiple TNN, Leovold) decks, do you miss Blast at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by It Is Unfair
Curious as to how you're able to consistentlyTerminus TNN.
I agree regarding Back to Basics. While it feels "cheep" whenever you steal a win with some kind of lockdown or prison enchantment, that has always been one of miracles strengths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Just trading 1 for 1 and hoping to draw the correct card at the correct time only works so far, especially if people start to adapt with weird stuff like Night's Whipser, Sanctum Prelate or Garruk like before the ban.
Regarding Pyroblast I still think the card is powerful, but I agree that it is not a must have any more, the fact that there is no single card like Counterbalance that you just can't beat in the control mirrors makes it a lot less necessary right now as well. If I see a lot of Ancestral Visions or deck with 4 Jace returning I'll want Pyroblast again though.
Hydroblast is good, and especially since I didn't play 4 Swords to Plowshares I wanted more cards against the aggressive decks, and they do happen to be red most of the time, it is also good against all the Blood Moon stompy decks and all the Sneak Attack decks, both of which are quite popular online like you say.
Of course I do, but I can't have it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Straight UW miracles has been viable for a long time, it even made top 8 of two GPs last year (Kouichi Miyabe in Chiba & Christopher Walton in Columbus) as well as a few other big finishes. And now without any CB mirrors it is better than ever, even though there are still other good blue spells left of course but that will always be the case in legacy.
Is 4 Unexpectedly Absent necessary to support the Predicts, or could we possibly shave some from the deck?
For example, would running a 2/2 split between Unexpectedly Absent and Swords to Plowshares make Predict a bit too unreliable?
Well we have now something to work on. It is clear than 12-cantrips is the good number and Portent can help to setup Terminus to make it consistently enough.
I'm happy to watch Predict still here, after the ban I never abandon the card. When Caleb started to play his Not Quite Miracle with Absent, I saw the interaction and test it also.
I didn't find it that good at the time, and I'm not sure that 4 is the right number; I do believe we're lacking information on how the meta is gonna elvove and the stock list will rise.
Also, I do believe that Counterbalance in one slot is a correct number. In the past with Top, the card was so broken that we would have it in 2 to 4 copies, and accept that sometime drawing too many would be clunky, but right now, the card is still busted, as creating virtual advantage and locking out your opponent in the late. Also, the card trickes nicely with Predict, which seems to be the main engine of the deck in terme of CA right now.
Same for B2B, I see little argument for not maindecking one, as some users as done with Blood Moon, as it locks your opponent out of the game and cut your opponent ressources to fight against Jace.
On sideboard, I do believe that we should focus a large part of it on Combo match-up. Our ability to grind and reset will put us in a position that will make creature.deck a prey for us.
Canonist is imo mandatory, not only for Storm but also for the Aluren, which is horrible right now.
I'm starting to think that Humility could be a decent option too.
Overall good job, we must stay focus, we need to test different option and keep sharing information. Miracle will rise again, Draw-Go is not dead.
I'm only fiddling with 12 cantrips and 4 Predicts because the dinosaur Hatfields did it with their Not Quite Gro lists in the Werebear days.
I do think you can shave some. The decklist I played is not tuned to the perfect numbers yet, and might never be. I also believe that there is a even better miracles list getting posted among the 5-0 decks tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by silly
Normally I jokingly give people the tips to not touch anything I ever 5-0 with, because it is not always the best lists and definitely not for everyone. I mean come on, I have 2 different 5-0 lists with Erayo in them during this past week or so.
And in this case I would say that you (and everyone) should test things out themselves, and if they don't like the numbers tweak them, and if you don't like trying to take the deck in this direction change everything. I know not everyone wants the deck as blue and full of cantrips as I do for example.
Can someone please PM me the current preferred breakdown of unexpectedly absent/STP? I have a legacy invitational qualifier for China's legacy championship tomorrow.
I think you take Itisunfair's decklist and go -2 Absent, +2 STP, like he said. That was honestly my gut anyways, as there isn't much else to cut. I really want to add STP #3 in the main-somewhere, but don't know where.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
edit: where are the Monastery Mentors? So many cantrips, and if you are "time walking" opponents then doing that with a Mentor in play is GG, no? Also, thoughts on Humility?
"Humility is the best card against sneak and show, death and Taxes, Aluren, food chain, Maverick, Goblins, lands, 4c loam, merfolk" taken from the UW Standstill thread, but the poster had a point and thats a huge part of the meta right there.
Mentor is worse without Top to support it, but even so I'm surprised by the lack of Mentors around. With these lists running 12 cantrips and all the other stuff, and with how anaemic the win conditions are in the lists floating around, it honestly surprises me. Didn't people start leaning to 3 and even 4 Mentor lists to start being able to apply pressure and have more than very slow win-cons? And that is with the safety of CB+Top. I'm probably wrong since no one's really running the Mentors, but I'm super curious what people's reasoning is on it, so I can adjust my thought process about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
Also, Humility is bonkers. I've been playing around with it a bit lately and I've had people vial in a Flickerwisp targeting Humility. Me: 'Nope.' GSZ for a Rec Sage? 'Nope.' It's very powerful, and 4 CMC makes it just that bit better, avoiding Decay.
Hello all,
This is my first time posting, but started following this thread a few months ago as I got back into the game after several years and picked up Miracles. I just played in a league with the list that osmanozguney went 5-0 with the other day, https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/648213#online, and wanted to share my experience.
Overall, the deck felt extremely well balanced and ran very smoothly. The card advantage gained from Predict was insane as ever, and though this list only runs 8 cantrips, I never really have any trouble setting up Miracles. Unexpectedly Absent performed very well in tandem with Predict during a few key situations and won me a couple of games.
Match 1: BR Reanimator W (2-0)
Neither game was very close, especially game 2 with +3 Surgical Extraction, +3 Flusterstorm
Match 2: UW Stoneblade W (2-0)
I was a bit unsure how this matchup would be for us, but the 4 Predict / 4 Snapcaster Mage plan just buried my opponent with card advantage
Match 3: Elves W (2-0)
This felt just like the good old days, but even better because my opponent, unsuspecting of Terminus no doubt, decided to go really wide game 1 and got punished hard for it.
Match 4: Grixis Delver L (0-2)
So this result is a little embarrassing since I am used to destroying Grixis Delver with Miracles, but oh well. Game 1, I couldn't find any removal and lost the tempo battle to Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland. Game 2 was very close and came down to an incredible sequence of draws from my opponent. I am eager to get in more reps with this deck against Delver, and feel that we are still favored here.
Match 5: BR Reanimator W (2-1)
So long as our opponent isn't on the play with a nut draw, we are in great shape with this list. With a bevy of counterspells, snap casters, and surgicals, they are in a lot of trouble.
I'm disappointed I couldn't pull in the 5-0 for the home team, but I am really excited about this list and looking forward to playing more.
Try this out. Whitefaces just got another 5-0 with this 75Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
http://i.imgur.com/bylAltb.jpg