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Yes and No. You're assuming both Teeg and Sylvan survive, or you're able to set up the lock. They could also just run you out of lands and then get you. but, I do know your point since I've been there. Safekeeper is a hell of a card.
But, there's really nothing we can do. Wait, there is. It's called Sylvan Library. They have excellent selection, and we can match it. They only have 1 Council's Judgment, so never fear. Usually Miracles doesn't come back from 1-2 Ancestral Recalls on my end.
-Matt
Going to try out a list this week. I'll just call it Mav-Rock since it isn't a clear definition of either.
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
9 Fetches
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
SB:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Rest in Peace
1 Choke
2 Zealous Persecution
Need to cut a card from the SB. Dunno what. Maybe a Revoker or the Needle. Probably Needle. KOTR doesn't have many things to search up, but he is a fat man. I lack Goyfs unfortunately :/
Knight into karakas or wasteland is still nuts, especially with all of the dark depths floating around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Is Loam 2 really better than gsz 1?
Probably not since I lack anything really worth Loaming back other than Wasteland really. I was trying to figure out a way to fit in a Green Sun or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
We had our monthly legacy event here in Manila yesterday (20 July) and I piloted junk.
46 players, 6 rds of swiss with cut to top 8. I went 4-2 and here’s my Mus
TES 2-0
MUD 0-1
Burn 1-2
Sneaky Show 2-0
Dredge 2-0
URW blade 2-0
For tourney report here, http://www.syntaxassassin.com/4-2-wi...n-junk-at-d4d/
Post your list here, the link is not working.Quote:
Originally Posted by paeng4983
-Matt
This weekend i ended up playing legacy, in a small 8-man tourney. I ended up 1-2, but being my first legacy tournament, I wasn't disappointed at all.
23 land
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
15 creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
6 permanents
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
16 spells
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thougthseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lingering Souls
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
Sideboard:
2 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Golgari Charm (should be zealous persecution)
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Grafdigger's cage
I felt the Batterskull is needed, it might just steal some games being dropped at t3 (t1 discard, t2 mystic, t3 batterskull). I felt like I had game against everything, but that my manabase was a hindrance. Not having the correct fetchlands made me lose games to Wastelands, and too many basics didn't provide a consistent manabase.
A small report (and a note, i drew 0 dark confidant in the total 7 games...). I do not recall the exact sideboards, but I have a rough idea
I went 0-2 vs BUG shardless control. Game one I ended up losing the top deck war, due to him having ponder and brainstorm for the late game scenarios. I saw no lingering souls, no confidant or sylvan library, which would have enabled me to get more advantage. I brought in engineered plague and golgari charm and one needle. On game two, i sneak a stoneforge t2 after making him discard his force of will, he didn't have green to decay the mystic. I end up fetching the jitte, and dropping it, but it is not even close to a batterskull. All my other threats get killed, in a true 1 for 1 war. My stoneforge beatdown ended up bringing him down to 2, but baleful strix into true name end the fun. I end of turn kill them with golgari charm, and get him to 1. Next turn, he goes ponder, strix, true-name. I have to hold my stoneforge back and he starts beating me with tar pit. I end up finding a sylvan library, and choose to lose 4 to try and dig a bit, and get down a goyf that gets Forced (hardcasted). A 3rd true-name and it looks grim, and I end up dead... The next card I would see with library is the engineered plague for those pesky fish.
Game 2 versus BUg Standstill with chasm Skulker
I draw poorly, mulligan to 6, get wastelanded to no lands, draw all the forest and end up dead to mishra's factory beatdown. By now I had not seen standstill or mishra's factory. I bring in golgari charm (as i suspect true name is present, pithing needle for the man lands and thalia, since I had seen no creatures until then. I get my deathrite into stoneforge, get a needle on mishra's factory (that were is two first lands), get toxic deluged, drop a goyf and a jitte and see a chasm skulker into brainstorm, I equip goyf and swing. He fetches for green, decays jitte, drops standstill and passes. I keep swinging with goyf and eventually the squid gets too big. I have to break that standstill, which will make the squid a bigger problem. I have not seen swords to plowshares, so i just decay the guy and golgari charm the squids. He has another one and brainstorm into standstill again. I do the same thing, but it gets ugly when my 2nd golgari charm gets forced.
That squid guy is a nightmare, and no one was happy to face it, it just runs away with games if unchecked, and unless it gets exiled, your opponent gets a small army to boot...
Round 3 vs dredge: game 1 I just get dredged. I bring golgari charm, nihil spellbombm, graffdiggers and surgical. I get a deathrite turn one, my opponent drops a putrid imp and discard a golgari thug. I get to kozilek and get rid of careful study and remove his dredger with deathrite. A turn 3 engineered plague on zombie kills his discard enabler and he now ahs to find a discard outlet. In the meanwhile, I get a goyf to beat him down and that's about it. Game 3 I get to drop deathrite turn 1 again, into scavenging ooze turn 2 and remove one of his dredgers. He has breakthrough and things get ugly, but engineered plague on horror for ichorid and ooze eating the bridge from below leaves me with a favorable board state. I just grind it out, removing any dredger or bridge, which is too much for him.
Overall, the manabase needs some work (I was borrowed loads of cards, and no one had fetches for me, due to a modern tournament the same day), but the maindeck felt solid. I wanted a batterskull plenty of times, that would have won me at least two games. Golgari charm was nuts every game, but with lingering souls in the deck, zealous persecution seems a better card. Engineered plague did a stellar job when it showed up to stop dredge and had i found it again true name (or the squid guy...) it would carry myself to a much better board position. I didn't face miracles, and do not know how that would have ended up.
Legacy was a lot of fun, and compared to the modern version of my deck, I only need to get some scrublands, wastelands, batterskull and stoneforges which is not near as bad as I would have imagined. The BUG shardless control player ended up winning the tourney, splitting the prize with 12-post.
I really wish I had seen some dark confidants in any of the first 4 games, where the card advantage it provides may simply win the game on the long run.
I played a game against rug delver after the tourney and was destroyed by stifle, wasteland and daze, and the lone delver got me from 20 down to zero.
Grats on your first tournament! 1/2 is not bad for a first venture into Legacy, and it looks like you have the right attitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by G_g
I read through your report, and share my thoughts.
Yes, the manabase could use some work. I tend to play 1 of each basic in Junk, and only occasionally play a 2nd swamp (the 2nd swamp guarantees I can cast Liliana, or Hymn if I 'm running it off just basics). I'd def get 4 Verdant Catacombs, and 3-4 Marsh Flats. I usually run 3 Bayou and 2 Scrubland. As I'm sure you noticed, access to black mana is paramount in this deck.
I totally agree with the Batterskull. For years, I was auto-including it with any Stoneforge list. When I got caught up on this Junk thread, I noticed that recently some folks were dropping it, and just running Jitte with 1 or 2 Swords. I gave it a shot (40-man and 8-man tournies) , and I really felt the lack of Batterskull. It's still a personal preference thing, but I just like having the option of t3 Batterskull, and the late-game it provides is super good.
How did you like Duress out of the board? I've considered running it, but I usually max on Thoughtseize and Hymn/Inquisition. Was it a card availability issue?
I knew some of the locals played burn and miracles. In those respective cases I'd rather have duress than thoughtseize and miracles. I have not played against TES, ANT or doomsday (despite having played a lot of spanish inquisition online a few years ago). I know for a fact against plenty of storm matchups, extra discard is the only way to beat them when you do not have counters. Yes thalia and gaddock teeg can slow them down, but they can just bounce them in the key turns. We do not have a fast clock (I'd say around turn 5 or 6), so keeping them away from the combo pieces is helpful. There are a few other corner cases where duress is better than kozilek (MUD, 12-post, sneak attack etc). Those spots might be used with something else, but only more games will tell. I kinda want to get a karakas, bojuka bog knight of the reliquary package, but the cost of that land is prohibitive. Maybe diabolic edict is a good option for when that emrakul or griselbrand show up, as it still forces true-name to be sacrificed against bug, deathblade and assorted crap.
Why don't we play rest in peace? (I know it screws our own tarmogoyf, but we still have some other creatures to be equipped, as well as lingering souls) It screws any deck that needs to interact with graveyard, slows reanimator a lot and stalls opposing goyfs and nimble mongoose and the like. Deathrite and ooze mainboard seem to be worth it, and with the extra grave hate in the side, RiP may be overkill.
As anyone tried pack rat for the grindy match-ups? I have been using it well in modern, especially paired with lily. Fortunately, there terminus isn't a widely played card.
Small rules question, what is the converted mana cost of a chalice of the void with x=2 when it is on the field? 0 or 4? If 0, we can kill it with decay, if not, I think we might need krosan grip, since almost all of our dudes cost 2 mana.
Chalice (already on the batlefield) mana cost is always 0 no matter how many counters it has.
My Golgari Rock deck with Natural Order. Lock em down and bring out Progenitus!
Mainboard:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Go for the Throat
4 Thoughtseize
4 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Natural Order
4 Pernicious Deed
Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
4 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Sinkhole
4 Golgari Charm
4 Beast Within
Mana Curve:
1 = 12
2 = 12
3 = 12
4 = 3
10 = 1
Mana Symbols
Green = 40
Black = 25
Throwing a bunch of good cards in a pile does not make a good deck. I would recommend cutting the Llanowar Elves OR the Pernicious Deeds. Keeping both is sort of a non-bo. Go for the Throat is suboptimal. And only 4 discard does a bad job of disrupting your opponent and of protecting your combo. Here's the direction where I would go with your list:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor Hammer
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Malestrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Natural Order
1 Sylvan Library
22 Land
A more control shell would probably be -2 Birds of Paradise, - other stuff, + Pernicious Deed
I definitely like Birds of Paradise over Llanowar Elves. I agree that Hymn to Tourach and Liliana of the Veil are a nice fit for this deck, but I kind of wanted to gear it to deal with threats as they hit the board and see how that works out. If it doesn't seem to be working I'll probably make the adjustment.
First and foremost, why? The mix of removal and discard has been proven effective for a long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor Hammer
Second, that strategy is inherently flawed. It only works for a narrow group of decks. The number of decks that put threats on the board in the manner you are referring to AND the only cards in their hands you have to worry about are more threats (meaning removal can take the place of discard) are strict creature decks. You'll beat Goblins and Maverick with your deck, but never touch Miracles, any sort of combo deck, and a skilled tempo player will crush you.
The reason why is mostly because I'm running Liliana and Hymn in another mono-black infect deck, and I originally wanted this to be a non-elves mono green deck. I found that you can't really build a competitive mono green deck unless it's an elf deck, so I decided to splash for black. I recently re-fashioned my legacy decks to all mono color, one for each color of magic. Blue is CounterTop, Red is burn, White is D&T, Black is Discard and Infect, and Green is what you see here. I decided to do this to allow myself to enjoy a completely different flavor with each deck I run with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
Also, if I run into a miracle deck, I'm going straight after their lands by siding in Sinkhole and Beast Within to compliment the Wastelands.
That sounds great for flavor, but the "I'm running those in a different deck" thing has been cropping up elsewhere. Do folks not realize that they can move cards around?
Also, you're not running Elves, you're not running Rock, you're running a sub par amalgamation of the two. That's not a winning strategy.
This deck has nothing in common with Elves, it's simply a more permanent removal heavy version of the Rock. After taking out Llanowar for Birds of Paradise the only elf in the deck will be Deathrite, and pretty much any deck that can accomodate Deathrite has it in it. Deathrite Shaman and Natural Order does not an Elves deck make.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
Let me amend that. You're grafting the NO plan into a deck where it doesn't seem warranted, in a way (llanowar elves?) that is clearly suboptimal.
Also, answer my other query. Why should boards designed for competitive play work around pseudo-budget concerns? You have cards better suited for the meta at large in these colors. If you want a NO-Junk esque deck, go onto mtggoldfish and find NO-Junk Depths. It has a much stronger approach.
Homeboy Thor Hammer has been dropping into several threads making some sub par suggestions.
This is telling. Clearly, you have some pet decks and I'm all about enjoying the flavor of the game. But it's kinda weird to drop into threads for established archetypes and try to discuss your pet deck builds within the framework of those archetypes. I've seen you do this in the Elves, Miracles, and Deathblade threads (I read this forum way too much). And now in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor Hammer
It's fine and dandy to come in with some off-the-wall ideas that work for you in your pet deck/super local meta. But you shouldn't expect people to just go with you and your super personalized suggestions.
There will be some pushback. And rightfully so.
People in these threads are trying to optimize their decks for bigass tournaments against experienced, deadly wizards. If you are going to suggest something relatively wacky, you need to have some reason for it. And those reasons need to be more compelling than an random anecdote or your recent 3-0 finish at a local weekly event.
With Vorthos love and casual tryhard affection,
danyul
I've never even posted in the Elves thread, and the only point of contention I encountered with my Deathblade deck was the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
WTF are you talking about? I don't expect people to "go with me". Show me one instance where I try to convince anyone else why they ought to build their version of deck X like mine. If anything I'm just looking to share ideas and insight. You're the one trying to push people into a certain build they may not be interested in.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
Pushback? Against what? It's not like I'm trying to convince people to build their decks the exact same way I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
This is a discussion forum and I enjoy discussing various deck builds. If you don't have an interest in the builds I post you are free to skip over them.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
I'm all for constructive criticism, but you people who whine just because you don't want to see a build version you're not familiar with are just plain pathetic and annoying.