I know ItIsUnfair didn't try mentors because he sold his mtgo ones, and the story is that this deck has existed for two days. Try everything! I have been trying mentor myself and I think it's amazing still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsinne
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I know ItIsUnfair didn't try mentors because he sold his mtgo ones, and the story is that this deck has existed for two days. Try everything! I have been trying mentor myself and I think it's amazing still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsinne
Ladies you can thank me later: Riptide Laboratory.
Even if the thing get's hit by a Wasteland it is at-least bouncing a Snapcaster back to your hand once. And if it doesn't get Wasted, good luck to your opponent dealing with recurring Snapcasters and Cliques.
Jace and Karakas are both just better
I agree. Not sure where Riptide is gonna put us, the fact it doesn't provide any colours is horrible in a world where we are trying to play both Absent and Counterspell.
Yep. As much as I love Riptide Lab it's not where this deck wants to be.
I like this main board a lot! I think 2 Cliques seems like a good concession to combo matchups while never really being a dead card (it can even activate Terminus for you in a pinch), and a couple Swords can't possibly be wrong... right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
I'm still undecided on the red splash. REB/BEB and Pyro/Hydroblast were some of my favorite cards when I first 'played' the game as a kid, and still seem good against Delver (extra removal), TNN/Leovold (fight on the stack), etc. And Blood Moon is a little more of a 'game over' than Back to Basics against a lot of decks. But being able to play even more basics and fit in a Karakas does seem pretty nice.
This is just level 1! Splashes can be explored once we figure out what the core needs to look like! Remember that Miracles was UW with no splash for a long time, until it came more and more in focus by the rest of the metagame, and then the Red splash began seeing play. Once we focus down the core, it might start being more competitive and the mirror might be being seen, so we might want to splash later!Quote:
Originally Posted by AppallinglyDull
On the B2B / Blood Moon match-up : Blood Moon is often stronger as it will lock your opponent out of the game, but it is way easier to play around Blood Moon, while B2B won't stop your opponent to draw active lands but the effect is inevitable. Your opponent will slowly get locked and won't be able to play around it.
Volcanic Island in the mainboard has always been a concession, let's look if we still need it.
I agree that Blood Moon would be better in the deck than B2B, especially now that we don't rely on the fetches with SDT. But I don't think it's worth splashing for at the moment. One of the most powerful things about the deck has been the smooth manabase. Now I'm on 5 Island, 2 Plains, 1 Karakas, 4 Strand, 4 Delta, 1 Mesa, 3 Tundra.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestalim
Part 1 of 2 5-0's from Whitefaces:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...gue-2017-05-20
I totally get that it's still new and back to the drawing board, but was just a bit curious as to why no one's been discussing mentor. Will you be sharing your mentor list anytime soon? Super interested in a mentor version of newiracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
I played this list in an 8 man at a shop in my area. It was primarily to test if the shell was good but I still managed to split in the final.
After the tournament I made some changes to the list. If I had to play tomorrow this is what I would play:
3 snapcaster
2 monastery mentor
3 jtms
4 terminus
3 stp
2 unexpected absent
4 predict
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 Counterspell
4 fow
2 flusterstorm(a bit of a meta call ATM)
2 preordain/portent (still not sold on portent
4 flooded
3 scalding
2 mesa
3 tundra
4 island
2 plains
2 volcanic
Sideboard
2 surgical
2 bmoon
2 cannonist
2 containment priest
3 reb effect
1 mountain
I'm still playing the red splash as the bloodmoon are alot better now without being forced to be conservative with our fetchlands and because reb effect are still good. The first draft had vendilion in the maindeck but i found it to be too fragile and slow as a clock so I swapped to mentor that helped me win from bad situations without having all my wincons weak to burn spells or reb effects.
Back to basics imo is not really good as it get blasted and doesn't shut down lands.dec.
I know I can sound a bit biased about mentor as I really like the card but it won me so many matches that I would never go outside without him in my 75.
Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk
Is disenchant or wear//tear just not a thing any more? Feel like these lists lean on UA a lot, and Flicker in resp to UA could be a blow-out.
We're no longer red for W/T and we no longer run Counterbalance, and Disenchant can't set up the Predict tricks like Unexpectedly Absent can. If you are seeing a lot of artifacts/enchantments (Sneak, Aluren, Chalice) in your meta I think Disenchant could still be a solid SB option.
This has to be the worst kept secret prior to the GP ever.
https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...iracles-legacy
REALLY close 4-1 miss with the counterbalance variant above. Boys, I think we are in action.
Here is my sideboard
* 2 Faerie Macabre (surgical is expensive)
* 2 Ethersworn
* 2 Vclique
* 2 Back to basics
* 2 Flusterstorm
* 2 Disenchant
* 1 Swords to Plowshares
* 2 Monastery Mentor
God speed. I am a longtime High Tide player and nothing, I mean nothing, would make me happier than a UWx Control variant taking over that doesn't hard lock me CB-Top. I also can get behind this deck, at is doesn't run that obstrutive combo and is as fair as the next deck.
I think Terminus as always is the bees knees, especially in this format where Leovold can prevent you from drawing. You need to find CA in different ways, and this deck is very, very good at that.
Lastly, I get not wanting to try to splash a colorless land in Riptide Laboratory in the UWr lists running 0 Portent, 20 lands, and a 3rd color. If that can find consistency though, I think so can too a Riptide Lab in a UW list running a full suite 4/4/4 Ponder/Portent/BS and 20 lands. Karakas does something similiar, but it can't be used to abuse SCM, and I don't want to be ticking down Jace to -1 my SCM when I can just have a land out doing the same. It might suck (I really don't know as it was just theorycrafting) but at least try it before you knock it.
I'd rather run the old legend combo with Vclique/Venser + Karakas.
Note to everyone - What are your thoughts on using the counterbalance lock out of the sideboard? It's not particularly good vs certain matchups G1 (Anything with Abrupt decay), but absolutely can crush decks like Grixis Delver/Storm out of the board.
Glad this deck is still viable. I jammed some games today and the deck felt great. I played a list similar to the recent UW modo ones with a slightly random sideboard:
8 fetch
3 tundra
6 island
2 plains
1 karakas
3 snapcaster
2 clique
3 jace
1 entreat
4 portent
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 predict
4 force
3 counterspell
1 flusterstorm
3 unexpectedly
4 terminus
SB
3 canonist
2 containment
3 surgical
2 B2B
1 blast
2 plowshares
2 flusterstorm
I played some preboard games against D&T; it was sort of similar to the matchup before, with the benefit that UA deals with equipment really nicely. I found that UA+Predict on Batterskull and SoFaI made the games pretty straightforward.
Next I played a bunch of preboard and postboard games against storm. Preboard was interesting since without CB, it was really important to get a clock on the table and then dig for redundant countermagic. Clique was predictably invaluable. It seemed like a bit of a coinflip matchup since the tempo of the extra land drop makes such a big difference. Having a stable manabase and lots of cantrips helped with consistency though. Postboard felt a bit one-sided - I boarded in the 3 canonists, 2 flusterstorms, the 2 StPs (for xantid) and 2 of the surgicals for my 3 UAs, 3 terminus, 1 predict and 1 jace. I found that my postboard games just saw my deck having overwhelming answers - it is very difficult with current storm sideboards to fight through force, counterspell and flusterstorm AND play around surgical AND dig for answers to canonist at the same time. One game in particular I got to karakas, three other lands and clique and the game just felt over.
I would like to try jamming some more games with mentors in the 75 somewhere, and also see if there's a configuration that lets me run some number of StP maindeck. One of the canonists in my board could maybe be a Meddling Mage (though I like canonist since it is a must-answer card against Storm, Food Chain, Elves, Aluren, etc) and I think the 3rd Surgical might be better served as something else (do we want Rest in Peace?). Anyway, I'm rambling now.
tl;dr - deck feels p good
I don't think you need Disenchants if you have UAs. But if you're not running them, then they're definitely needed. In this specific scenario involving a flickerwisp, UA and Disenchant both get blown out?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I've seen you naysaying about a lot of choices here and on Reddit (StP, SfM package etc)...we're just trying things out! Just because a list 5-0s doesn't mean something is set in stone.
No StP was an idea from ItIsUnfair, I tried it and it ran well the first league. The Stoneforge package in the sb isn't specifically for fair decks, but aggro decks. Since we no longer have CB to lock up the end game, we're more susceptible to bolts and things. I think we need something in that place to stabilize. The next league I ran two StP in the main with another in the sb, and two Mentors in the sb which managed to 5-0 too. I've been trying lots of different things out, even Baneslayer Angel. So before you bash stuff, please realise that we're just trying to understand what's working and what's not, there's a lot of work to be done.
I think Venser is even worse now that the mirror has gone tbh, but Clique and Karakas has been great so far!Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
Potentially. I played with a few CB in the deck to begin with and was really underwhelmed by them, I could see a couple doing work though. I'll give them a try some time!
Glad to hear it's going well!Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnza
I've played against DnT a couple of times online now, and yeah it feels pretty easy with UA + Predict on their equipment!
I'm happy to hear Storm is feeling positive too. It's obviously one of the best decks at the moment, and everywhere online, so wanted to overload on things for it if possible as game one is pretty bad (though you can definitely steal some if they have a slow hand). I'm now running 3 Canonists too. They've been worth their weight in gold as you can simply clock them and counter any removal on it.
I've played a few leagues with two Mentors in the sb, they were very good.
I can also confirm that mentor in the board is REALLY strong.
* Assuming no counterbalances in main, I presume we are running a 1 Entreat, 3 counterspell, 3 snapcaster, 1 spell pierce, 4 Predict "assortment" instead of 1 counterspell, 1 spell pierce, 3 counterbalance, 4 snapcaster, 3 Predict. Idk, but the card keeps performing for me, but I see the merit of the pure "CA" approach.
* What is the point of disenchant over unexpected #3-4? Absent covers even more ground than disenchant and has strong synergy with jtms + predict.
Here is my list I've had another close almost 5-0 with.
Maindeck
* 3 Tundra
* 9 Fetch
* 2 Plains
* 4 Island
* 2 Volc
* 3 Snapcaster
* 3 JTMS
* 1 Entreat
* 4 Predict
* 4 Brainstorm
* 4 Portent
* 4 Ponder
* 4 Terminus
* 2 Unexpected
* 3 STP
* 1 Spell Pierce
* 3 Counterspell
* 4 Force of Will
Sideboard
* 2 Mentor
* 2 Vclique
* 2 Flusterstorm
* 3 Pyroblast
* 2 Surgical
* 2 Blood Moon
* 2 Unexpectedly Absent
Mentor is good no doubt, I'm just not sure if it's what we're looking for in those slots. Do we want to/are able to stabilize the game by life gain from batterskull, or be proactive with Mentor? The SfM package is much better with Terminus, now that we don't have quite as much control over it I think that's a big factor too.
Disenchant is better than UA vs the Bloon Mood decks mostly, I'm not sure if we should be running any though. Currently I have 2 UA in the md and 1 Disenchant in the sb. I'll see how it goes, I like having a mix. I'm not playing any Spell Pierces, I'd prefer to have a Flusterstorm in that spot.
Have you found the red splash to be worth it? B2B is very good too in the Blood Moon slot. Pyroblast is obviously going to be insane in the mirror, but is it worth it otherwise?
Tested a few matches using Whiteface's list as a starting point, with a few adjustments.
Planeswalker (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (5)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Sorcery (13)
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Terminus
Instant (19)
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Predict
3 Unexpectedly Absent
2 Swords to Plowshares
Land (20)
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
3 Flusterstorm
2 Back to Basic
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
Thoughts
1) List ran alot smoother than expected. Unexpected Absence + Predict + Portent gives so many lines of interesting play.
2) Very fun using Portent on Opponents after they Ponder
3) Can't decide if the deck is really strong, or simply having the "surprise factor"
4) there is a simplicity to being just UW. Wastelands are really inconsequential. i do miss my Red Blasts though.
5) Stoneforge out of the board is quite good. Will test replacing it with Mentor as well
6) Back to basics feels quite lacking at times, and doesn't provide that GG feel that Blood Moon gives.
Actually i can't decide if the red splash is still worth. Blast effects a bmoon are still really good but a more stable manabase is always good too.
Tested against Delver and I'm pretty sure I can't play without at least 3 STP maindeck and 2 fluster as stifle is backbreaking.
Online the meta is really different but in real there's a lot of different decks and STP is still very good. Thalia is very good Vs those cantrip heavy decks and UA can be pretty hard to cast if u are playing against D&T.
Sent from my MI 5 using Tapatalk
Caveat, I was never a miracles player, as I found the deck boring. I'm much more interested in this version of the deck, however. I've posted the list I've been running below, and it's felt fine. So here's the question, why does the hivemind think that mutating this list to switch our one-mana removal for a two-mana bounce-to-library is correct? Just so that Predict is still a card?
Lands:
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
Creatures:
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Instants and Sorceries:
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
2 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgment
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Engineered Explosives
Sideboard:
1 Karakas
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
1 Pyroclasm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Blood Moon
There is a bit more to it than that. Partially it makes it so that almost every single card in the deck helps to set up predict of course. But it is also a catch all, which allows us to cut things like disenchant that takes up precious sideboard space, especially in a world without CB we need more sideboard cards against combo than we did before. Also, not everyone wants to do that, I just happened to 5-0 with 4 Unexpectedly Absent.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManaT
Also with this new list playing more jace than before and 4 portent, we suddenly have a lot more ways to control our opponents draw than we ever had before, so in a not insignificant subset of games we can lock our opponents out that way. When you are ahead in the game, there is no better feeling than knowing your opponent is going to topdeck their deathrite shaman again next turn, and then once again the turn after that because you also have an snapcaster, all this while you beat down with clique or brainstorm with jace every turn.
Granted, I did over simplify, and recognize that there is more utility there than just as a removal spell. But my gut feeling is that it's "too cute".
Similarly, your point about needing more room for anti-combo cards is well taken, but so far I feel that finding that room by removing the predicts is the better option.
I'll be sure to test the Unexpectedly Absent, though. I'm always willing to be wrong.
I too was a doubter of unexpectedly absent, but now feel that 2 (and most likely 3) + 3 STP is the correct number. This deck plays more like modern lantern control than traditional miracles due to the mass amount of fatesealing. Basically instant speed terminus, then slam a jace combined with an avalanche of CA via Predict. I like how Predict lets you become very aggressive with your force of wills since you can just overpower your opponent with predict. I don't say this lightly, but predict is basically a mini dig through time in this deck.
I've continued to test the counterbalance build and I still like what I'm seeing. Could you guys who are on the fence elaborate upon what you've seen?
UA basically is a decent enabler, as it's an instant. There're 2 enablers: Jace and UA. Predict and Portent are the pay off. I am pretty convinced on running at least 2 Predict, 2 UA, and 2 Jace, but everything else seems to be in flux. Currently there are 2 hot topics:Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
1. UW or UWr
Everyone has opinion on this, not gonna elaborate further.
2. is there a place for CB
Currently I've decided to test couple CB in the SB. We all know CB is inconsistent. When you want to really counter something, inconsistency is a big no-no. With that said, there're MUs in which having a blind CB on the board can be the key, aka Storm and Elves. Against storm, flipping 0,1, and the jackpot 2 all are great. Well, if LED is already on the table, flipping 0 is pretty useless, but everything else appears to be throwing off Storm player's plan. Permanent hate is much, much stronger than holding counter against Storm.
Venser is still the generic solution to everything. Everything from equipment to Prelate to Show and Tell permanent to any fair MUs. UB Reanimator has Show and Tell my Venser in before. Even against Iona on White, Venser as some values as an out.
I understand we can reset Vials and throw off equipments via UA, but DnT will eventually rebuild the board. If we can find an Entreat or abuse the tempo/CA gained in between then we surely will win, but often I don't find that to be the case. Hence I much rather just Disenchant and be done with the particular problematic permanent.
Small heads up. ItIsUnfair has top 8'd the Legacy Challenge with this. We have legs, friends.
Yep, a great showing!
I went 4-2 and came 18th. Lost to Infect and Team America, beat Sneak and Show, UB Landstill, Grixis Delver and Moon Stompy. I'm really happy with this deck.
Same decklist ?
Gratz to you Whiteface, if you have ant return let us know.
Quite similar, but I'm always changing a few things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestalim
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Portent
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Predict
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Unexpectedly Absent
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
SB:
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Containment Priest
1 Hydroblast
1 Supreme Verdict
Going forward I think I'm going to cut the SfM package from the SB, add in 2 Mentors and a Clique and take a Clique out of the md for a StP. And maybe cut the Karakas from the md for another white fetch or 3rd plains, but I'm not sure on that yet.
I made top 8 of the challenge with this list:
http://i.imgur.com/BbQcr7p.png
Maindeck:
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Portent
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Predict
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Terminus
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Unexpectedly Absent
Sideboard:
1 Back to Basics
1 Batterskull
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Containment Priest
1 Hydroblast
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Vendilion Clique
I agree with that. I also wasn't very impressed by the stoneforge package. It wasn't bad but it also wan't good enough to be given 3 slots. I'm not sure exactly what to replace it with yet but I'll try some different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Congrats to both! A couple questions, if I may:
How often did you Portent yourself to set up a Terminus/Entreat vs. Portent the opponent to control draw steps and/or set up Predict? (Obviously this is going to vary based on a lot of factors, but just curious for a general sense.)
How often did you draw miracle cards 'by mistake' (from Predicting the opponent, etc.) and then have to find a way to put them back into the deck? Did this change the way you used Brainstorm? Were you more conservative with not Brainstorm-fetching away cards because you were saving the Brainstorm for a miracle drawn at the wrong time?
What is your sense of how many games you won with Jace vs. Entreat vs. Snap/Clique beats?
* * *
I unfortunately don't have MTGO and have been struggling to get a different online method to work, but am really looking forward to testing this in paper the next time I get to play Legacy. Unfortunately that will be in a couple weeks, but on the flip side, maybe better players will have everything figured out for me by then. ;)
Awesome to see the continued results. I've got my Portent on order for some IRL testing. I'm also very interested to see what Oarsman comes up with given the Legend package remains intact, and one of the decks that package works well against is Show and Tell decks; that have been on the rise. Keep posting everyone!
So I had a thought - Counterbalance doesn't seem to maindeckable, but what about using it in the sideboard over Ethersworn? The card locks out storm while also having added utility vs delver/burn/traditional 1cmc heavy matchups.
Moreover, what is everyone's take on back to basics vs blood moon vs ruination vs from the ashes? I've been running 2x BtB in the sideboard, but sometimes I feel that blood moon would lead to more instant "ggs". I like how the red splash gives us more powerful sideboard options vs straight UW.
Finally, and on a stupid note, I'm going to order some of the missing sideboard pieces. Should I go for FBB Japanese or full art promos/dci?
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by AppallinglyDull
Portent into a Terminus does happen, but not as much as I initially thought. Portent has just been a really solid cantrip in general, being able to set up Terminus is a great bonus. It's used most of the time to set Predict up. I almost only use it in the late game on the opponent when it's pretty much wrapped up and I have a Jace/clock in play. As you say, of course it changes a bit based on what's going on, but it's been used with Predict and then a late game 'lock' more than anything else.
It happens as always. We don't have as much control over them as before so you do have to use Brainstorms a little more sparingly, but not as much as I initially though.
Jace is the number one win con. Sometimes it's technically Snap and Clique beats or an Entreat later on, but he creatures such an advantage that it's impossible for the opponent to come back. Mentor from the board has been great though, so there's that.
In other news, I just got another 5-0! Unfortunately my second one didn't get posted. This time I used the changes I mentioned above. +1 StP -1 Clique in the md, -3 sfm package +2 Mentor +1 Clique in the sb.
Edit to answer the below
Honestly, CB is too much unneeded work to maintain from my experience. Since other options are working I don't see a reason to incorporate one that hasn't worked already. Even vs a lot of matchups where you may want it (Elves, Lands for example) I was boarding them out anyway with SDT around.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
I had B2B for a little while, but Anuraag convinced me that just playing a third Surgical would be better for the Lands matchup. Moon and FtA are really nice vs lots of the bug decks etc, but I'm hoping Mentor will close out the games without these things. If I was playing the red splash I'd probably play a couple of Moons though, it's better than B2B.
Hey! Nice playing with you on MTGO the other day. My thought is that for Storm, Canonist is just better.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
- Even with a CB floating 1 or 2 on top, Storm can potentially still go off, but they have to get rid of Canonist. Canonist also provides an additional clock.
- The downside of Canonist is that ANT now runs 2x pyroclasm and a number of fatal pushes, and By Force SB.
- The main upside of CB against storm as i currently see it is that they no longer run decay - and aside from Echoing, have no way to remove a CB.
- Not sure if CB is consistent enough for Delver/Burn matchups though.
@WhiteFace/ItsUnfair
- How's the SneakShow Matchups like?
- What would you feel is currently our good matchups/bad matchups?
- For mentor, in my initial testing, does not play too well with Portent. It does generate a trigger, but does not allow us to chain cantrips well. Has that ever been an issue for you?
@Everyone
- I see alot less Decays now. Is it just me? or do you all have the same experience?
PS: is there anyone streaming the new miracles?