My bad. The Elves thread has so much randomness. I get names mixed up.
As for the rest of your post: K. Keep on keepin' on then.
Tell me more about this Natural Order plan.
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My bad. The Elves thread has so much randomness. I get names mixed up.
As for the rest of your post: K. Keep on keepin' on then.
Tell me more about this Natural Order plan.
You might start here:http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/11379#paper
On the stack it is a 4 CMC spell, but once it hits the battlefield, its cmc is 0. So it can be decayed no matter how many counters are on itQuote:
Originally Posted by G_g
NO into Proggie? Just trying to drop a bomb mid game if the matchup is a grind.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
My apologies for getting my tighty whities ruffled. But really, look at the link. It seems closer to what you're looking for. It was discussed on the Maverick thread here and on Salvation recently.
An aside, I don't really like NO-Proggie right now. Terminus, Liliana, etc. I think Elves is the best shell for it, add it can Hoof ftw that turn.
A NO Junk list should look like this:
4 Deathrite shaman
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar
14
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Natural Order
2 Green Sun's Zenith
12
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
8
+3 Extra (manipulation, hand disruption, etc.)
23 lands with 2 Dryad Arbor
You need to still be a real function deck without Natural Order, that's the problem with most NO decks. They suck balls if they're not hitting the Natural Order.
-Matt
Everytime I see a NO deck without Brainstorm I always think it needs a way to pitch Progenitus so it can shuffle back. Maybe a GB Version with Liliana?
I like that NO concept. Megadeus has a crucial point there. Those last 3 slots should definitely be Liliana of the Veil. And the Qasali Pridemages should probably be Reclamation Sages. We COULD cut white after that, but StP is great and white SB options tend to be excellent.
I agree with Liliana in NO builds (and, normal Junk builds for that matter). An extra out to ditching your Progenitus is a nice kicker, but even when you don't draw Prog, Liliana is very strong against the decks that would counter your NO. If you happen to draw into NO, you can whittle away their hand to clear the way for Prog. It's also worth noting that against a deck that Liliana will often be cast the turn before you Natural Order. Liliana is scary for counterspell decks, and they might just blow their Force (pitching, say a Spell Pierce of whatever). Then Natural Order has an easier time resolving even if Liliana didn't hit the table.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
We could cut white, but in my years of playing various Junk builds, mana doesn't tend to be a problem for the deck. If you can figure out when to go Duals, and when to go Basics, mana isn't a big enough liability that I would consider cutting StP. And like you said, the sideboard really offers some powerhouses. Teeg, Thalia, Zealous Persecution, and many others. The power they offer is worth the low effort of making your mana work.
Creatures [12]Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Instants [9]
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution
Sorceries [10]
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Lingering Souls
Planeswalkers [3]
3 Liliana of the Veil
Artifacts [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands [23]
1 Karakas
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
Sideboard [15]
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
1 Karakas
1 Duress
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
1 Choke
I gotta say, you're drifting far from The Rock and very much into Deadguy territory: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post748016Quote:
Originally Posted by paeng4983
I've been straddling that line for a long time. I've come to feel that The Rock requires "rocks" aka big, strong creatures to build your board state around. A deck with no Knights and no Goyfs is difficult to call a Rock deck.
It's weird how Legacy decks can do this. Two BUG Delver decks can differ by 8 cards and both still be called BUG Delver, but if it changes only 4 cards, it can be identified as BUG Midrange.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
The Rock might be THE poster boy for this, though. Even the name of this thread, "The Rock" I feel interchangeable with "Junk." I've played The Rock in a 3 round tournament and my opponents had 3 different names for it (Dark Maverick, Deadguy variant, and Junk).
Bottom line is, call it what you want, the play style and colors is what makes The Rock what it is. Black, Green, and some amount of White. Cheap creatures that are powerful, though don't necessarily end the game as fast as possible (Lingering Souls counts as a powerful creature with equipement). Disruption in the form of Wasteland, discard, removal, and sometimes hatebears. Some form of card advantage, be it Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library, or Hymn to Tourach. Attack them to death (with 1/1 Souls, or Deathrite Drains, or Goyf, or Progenitus).
This is ideally what I want my Rock deck to look like.
Mainboard:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
4 Dark Confidant
1 Progenitus
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Natural Order
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
4 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Sinkhole
4 Golgari Charm
4 Beast Within
Mana Curve:
1 = 12
2 = 16
3 = 8
4 = 3
10 = 1
Mana Symbols
Green = 32
Black = 34
i am not sure if you want this to be tournament viable, though i admit it looks just 10% better then the previous listQuote:
Originally Posted by Thor Hammer
sideboard by the way is utter crap (sorry, really did not know how to make this clear in a more mannered way).... and its 16 cards
if you want to keep your deck 2 colored, that is fine by me, but you really should look into how different packages are build from
for instance your natural order package is just 50% present, simply because Green Sun's Zenith should be used instead of bird of paradise with 2 dryad arbors to ensure you allways have a creature to sac to natural order
after that your should inform yourself what is good in what colors for GSZ, and so on
i assume you have little to no expirience in competitive legacy tournaments, in which case i suggest you read about the last 50 pages of this thread (even if this seems abysmal, ............if you are really intrested in this deck just do it)
otherwise i would also suggest you the "nic fit Thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...enith-Control))
but please read through all this stuff, because that is the only way that you will learn a lot about the different decks out there, and hopefully your new pet-deck, and all about its matchups,..... which matchup is favorable, which one is unfavorable and the reasons for this
i hate it to be the bad guy, but from the list you posted it is fairly obvious that you have not much expierience with this deck(no offence please)
it cannot run with only 20 lands
your manacurve is way to high
you will need double green and double black mana, whick is not easy to achieve
you have lots of bad topdecks for lategame (bird of paradise)
you have no way to manipulate library
you have no card selection / toolbox approach
all of those points are essential for this deck (and i am sure i forgot to mention a lot)
therefore my suggestion of reading through the last 50+ pages of this thread (i would even recommend reading the whole thing if that would not be that much)
after you have done so, you should have a very good idea how this deck works, and why it works the way it does, .... and what the big differences are to the list you suggested (which would still be ok in a casual-enviroment)
I still don't know why you aren't running 4 copies of Green Sun's Zenith. That would allow you to diversify your threats and your answers.
You're also running Dark Confidant as a playset alongside Progenitus, Natural Order, Liliana, and Eternal Witness. 2-3 Sylvan Library would be much better, especially in a burn heavy metagame.
As noted above, your sideboard is a.) Illegal and b.) Bad. Not trying to offend, but 4/4/4/3 sideboards don't really cut it in this format. Giving your opponent a 3/3 beast is terrible when your only ground threats are Goyf and Progenitus.
Also, as noted above, you're running too few lands. In, say, Maverick (a midrange deck with 8-9 mana dorks and wastelands) 22 is the norm. Just because you have basics does not mean you'll be able to cast all your spells.
As noted above, please read a chunk of the thread. It does a disservice to the contributions of other posters to not do so.
Please look at the link I posted; apart from Elves!, it seems to be one of the better NO shells.
I'm definitely going to replace the Dark Confidants with 2 x Sylvan Library and 2 x GSZ.
This is starting to look pretty solid now...
Mainboard:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Natural Order
2 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
4 Swamp
Sideboard:
4 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Sinkhole
4 Golgari Charm
4 Pernicious Deed
Mana Curve:
1 = 12
2 = 16
3 = 8
4 = 3
10 = 1
Mana Symbols
Green = 36
Black = 30
This is a discussion board, not a "post your list and wait for ideas board." Discuss why you are opting out of the other changes suggested. Many of the original criticisms still stand - why aren't they addressed?
i can't help myself but having the same impression.... it seems a little bit to me that you (Thor Hammer) want us to build your deck.... really i do not intend to offend you at allQuote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
but i would like you to see it this way.... it is your deck, so put some effort into it, by READING AND RESEARCHING
and the only thing you changed was dark confidant for 2 librarys and 2 GSZ (and in the sideboard beast within for maelstrom pulse......... but it still has 16 cards)
still only 20 lands ......and your manabase sucks
still a full playset birds where you need none (or at most 1 as manafixer.... but only if you run a full playset of GSZ)..... did it never happen to you that you had only a land in hand and a manadork and the manadork got killed?, and you drew no other land......... that is a serious flaw in deckbuilding
and i do not think you got my point of double black mana and double green mana........hymn to tourach + liliana vs. witness + natural order............ i am not sure if you realize how hard it is to get to double BB + GG, even in a 2 colored deck
again, PLEASE READ THROUGH THIS THREAD and a lot of other threads like the ones we pointed you at like nic fit, and of other decks using the Natural Order Package, so you can see the similaritys (basically everyone is running a minimum of 3 GSZ) and what cards can help that plan, and what cards you should avoid using
i am telling you this all because you will not feel happy or really satisfied with a deck that you did not put effort in building (at least it is like this for me)
also you will not be able to pilot it successfully if you do not fully comprehend the cardchoices
Man, I really hate the burn matchup. It's really not that great anymore, even with SFM and Jitte. It's not unwinnable, but I've been coolered the past three weeks in a row at our weekly by someone playing Burn.
I'm not going to pack slots for it, and the meta will eventually shift, but it's a stupid deck and I hate it :P
-Matt