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It's definitely worth talking about. On the one hand, nobody wants to give away good decks, but on the other hand we need to agree on whether a deck does or does not work.
Mana Crypt + Donate + mass discard has been in my gauntlet since round 1 but worth making sure we all agree whether the deck does or does not work.
Isn’t the donate example in line with the rules as written? From the CR: “You” is the controller for permanents, the would be controller for spells and acitivated abilities, and the owner for triggered abilities.Quote:
Random effects always have the effect that is most favorable to the opponent.
Mana crypt is unlucky for the controller.
Emrakul shuffle is unlucky for the owner of emrakul.
Mana clash will do damage equal to the life total of whoever controls the spell. (When you would lose if the process stops and draw if it goes on forever, it is more favourable for the opponent if the effect stops)
I see I missed an apostrophe, so a search would not have found the cards with the ability I was referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
https://scryfall.com/search?q=oracle...rid&order=name
For these, if they're moving from a zone that's neither the battlefield or the stack,
then there is no controller, since none of the exceptions to rule 109.4 apply.
However, 108.4a and/or 109.5 probably fix anything which might need to be fixed in this respect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Which one is that?
my thought, including the epsilon exception
or
"For MC vs BB, I think MC should lose, even though the current rule has it win."
or
something else?
In any case, I now see the Mindslaver ambiguity in what I said. I think replacing "the effect's existence" with
"the match including an ability which creates the random effect" would fix that, although it's possible there are still others.
Incidentally, the particular Mindslaver example you gave is an epsilon situation, so
if that exception is included then the ambiguity's resolution doesn't actually affect it.
(I am well aware that there are probably other examples which would probably not be epsilon situations.)
YesQuote:
Originally Posted by dte
So glad to see a post where this is the only text printed, and nothing else!Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
I assumed that donating a Mana Crypt would (eventually) kill the new controller, and if we're trying to settle any uncertainty then my vote goes to that interpretation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxx!
Since you put parentheses around eventually, I'm checking:
Do you mean
in usually 7 turns
or
only eventually: If there is any finite number of turns which works for the Crypt's recipient, then it would be such a number.
?
My understanding of maxx!'s "eventually" was to mean "in <life total>/3" turns, but perhaps I'm just projecting because that's what I thought the rules would be. I also vote for the rules to be this way, but I don't mind at all if I'm overruled.
There are cards that cause other players to shuffle, like Soldier of Fortune, though they're just unplayable in this format anyway.
I'm excited to have another mathy person who talks about things like events with probability 0. Indeed, I think we've had situations before that involved shuffling every turn and drawing the "wrong" card every single time forever to make a draw, though I can't recall the deck in question and I don't think I'd be able to find it.
As for Mindslaver, I guess controlling another player doesn't cause you to control any of their cards, so if you Mindslaver someone who has Mountaint + Mana Clash in their hand, you can kill them on the spot. This seems fine to me.
PS: I put in everyone's scores who did a write up.Only Nasst is missing... but it's the same deck as Asthereal. And I think I beat Reeplcheep, but Reeplcheep wasn't sure. We're both at 24 points without the matchup, so bans are at stake! Looks like a lot of bans this time!
Standings for round 2:
1. alphastryk: 54 - 5,4
2. dte: 45 - 4,5
3. RoosterCocoa: 39 - 3,9
4. maxx!: 33 - 3,3
5. Phasmoid: 30 - 3
5. silkster: 30 - 3
7. GoblinSmashmaster: 27 - 2,7
8. Reeplcheep: 24 - 2,4
9. FTW: 20 - 2
10. Asthereal (TO): 15 - 1,5
10. Nasst: 15 - 1,5
Which leads to a pile of bannings:
Ancient Tomb
Ashiok, Nightmare Muse
Chandra, Awakened Inferno
Chimeric Idol
Culling Scales
Dark Depths
Dreadship Reef
Dwarven Hold
Field of Ruin
Hive of the Eye Tyrant
Inquisition of Kozilek
Karakas
Mishra’s Factory
Mishra's Workshop
Pithing Needle
Serenity
Sphere of Resistance
Thespian's Stage
Trinisphere
Urza's Saga
And the season standings look as follows:
1. silkster: 7,5
2. dte: 7,3
3. alphastryk: 6,9
4. RoosterCocoa: 6,6
5. FTW: 6,5
6. Reeplcheep: 6
7. Phasmoid: 5,8
8. GoblinSmashmaster: 5,5
9. maxx!: 4,5
10. Nasst: 4,3
11. Asthereal (TO): 3,9
Let's stick to the standard rules for controller and owner, and random effects being to the disadvantage of the controller.
It's not like Crypt-Donate will dominate for a full season with our strict banning regime.
Anyway...
ROUND 3 OF SEASON 12: VINTAGE CREATURELESS BANNATHON has started.
I have PM'ed myself my deck for round 3, so you can start sending me your decks.
DEADLINE: Wednesday the 13th of April at 11:00AM Central European Time.
(That's my time zone. Pacific Time it'll probably be something like Tuesday night a bit past midnight, so keep that in mind.)
PLEASE NOTE:
The way you send your deck to me matters. Please send it in the way described below, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks.
Please send your deck as follows: Mountain, Plains, Forest, Shivan Gorge.
So with card tags around each card, and not above eachother, and with your Username and 4CB S12R03 in the topic.
Don't forget to keep an eye on the banned list. You'll find it in the second post of the thread, or in our Google Spreadsheet.
After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.
Happy deckbuilding! :smile:
It sounds like we've got clarification (for this season anyway) from Asthereal, but just to answer your question, I meant "in ~7 turns"Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmoid
Deadline has passed, and it looks like I'm only missing Nasst. I'll give you some more time while I do work stuff.
Do we have to beat the sample deck? I don't always Backbuild around it.
I mean, you never know if somebody will just submit the sample deck... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I will never again forget to metagame against Black KnightQuote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
It is a bit tougher now that both field of ruins and pithing needle are banned to play around shivan gorge...
I'm here! I'll think and submit my deck in 10 mins or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
EDIT: Done!
Indeed we are complete. Let's go!
DECKS FOR ROUND 3 OF SEASON 12: Vintage Creatureless Bannathon
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Negation, Snap, Subterranean Hangar, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Pendelhaven, Mox Emerald, Channel, God-Pharaoh's Statue
3. dte: Commandeer, Force of negation, saprazzan cove, Shark Typhoon
4. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Sea’s Claim, Island, Mutavault
5. Phasmoid: Tropical Island, Daze, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
6. Reeplcheep: Mana Crypt, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Interplanar Beacon
7. RoosterCocoa: Undiscovered Paradise, Crashing Footfalls, Evil Presence, Curse of Silence
8. maxx!: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Ratchet Bomb, Leyline of Sanctity
9. silkster: Gemstone Mine, Restore Balance, Crashing Footfalls, Specter's Shriek
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
11. Nasst: Mutavault, Mox Sapphire, Mox Ruby, Wistful Thinking
Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
I'll create a tab for the round in our Google Spreadsheet, so you can enter your scores there as well: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
I see dte and I were on the same wavelength here. But of course should have thought of Shark Typhoon as a wincon (I'm even playing Legacy Standstill right now). Much better than Kasmina, especially in the mirror. I got stuck on planeswalkers and couldn't think of a good threat with Mu Yanling banned. Flash and uncounterable is such a big difference. I end up with a lot of draws.
1. Asthereal (TO): I can always wait to have an extra UUU to cast Kasmina with Force backup, so Kasmina will resolve, but then you get Ob Nixilis. That's bad for me. So instead I do nothing and hold up Commandeer (you can't protect with FoN on your turn). You can't play Ob Nixilis, so we stare. Shark Typhoon would win this. DD 2-2
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Since FoN beats this, I can just tick up to Kasmina and win. WW 6-0
3. dte: We both stare and tick up for a long time, but eventually you make an EOT Shark and I can't interact. At 7 mana I can cast Kasmina and defend with FoN, but Kasmina loses to Shark. LL 0-6
4. alphastryk: If you Sea's Claim my land, I Force pitching Commandeer. Then before Mutavault kills me I can make Kasmina and 2 2/2s, out-Grizzly Bearsing you. If you don't Sea's Claim, you have FoN up, but I can wait until turn 9 (7 mana) to cast Kasmina with extra UUU for hardcast FoN backup. Kasmina will resolve before Mutavault does lethal. WW 6-0
5. Phasmoid: If you suspend Crashing Footfalls, I'll be able to Commandeer one & pay for Daze before it resolves, so our Rhinos crash into each other. If you don't suspend one, I can't really get anywhere with my non-Shark wincon, so I have to wait and hold up Commandeer. DD 2-2
6. Reeplcheep: FoN on Mana Crypt stops your deck, then Kasmina gets there. WW 6-0
7. RoosterCocoa: Good tech. If you cast Evil Presence last, I can't sabotage your mana with Commandeer, and you can still disrupt my land before Footfalls resolves or I could cast Kasmina. I have to let Evil Presence and Curse resolve. You name Commandeer (because that's much worse for you), so I just FoN Footfalls to draw. DD 2-2
8. maxx!: I can Force Ratchet Bomb, but get punished again for not making a flying Shark. T6 Kasmina is slow vs doubled Inkmoth. LL 0-6
9. silkster: How did Specter's Shriek dodge the ban hammer when we banned all the Thoughtseizes? If you wait to suspend first, you can dodge the downsides of losing a card or getting Commandeered back at you. You discard FoN, and then I can't stop Rhinos. LL 0-6
11. Nasst: FoN stops Wistful Thinking, then T6 Kasmina stabilizes with 2 2/2s vs your 1 2/2. WW 6-0
30 points (8 wins, 6 draw, 6 loss)
dte must have gotten a good score because Shark makes a difference in many matchups.
Edit: GoblinSmashmaster's 7 2/2s would have done a lot better in this non-Sphere meta. Too bad for the switch. I played Commandeer in part because I feared that deck.
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Negation, Snap, Subterranean Hangar, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
6-0, I kill with a Marit Lage sized shark.
6
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Pendelhaven, Mox Emerald, Channel, God-Pharaoh's Statue
6-0, whether I counter or not.
12
3. dte: Commandeer, Force of negation, saprazzan cove, Shark Typhoon
Me. Playing FoN vs the worst combos. Shark typhoon I found only because I was looking for a card that would prevent a draw against an army of zombies that no one played, but turned out pretty well.
4. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Sea’s Claim, Island, Mutavault
6-0
18
5. Phasmoid: Tropical Island, Daze, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
2-2, rhinos crashing into each others..
20
6. Reeplcheep: Mana Crypt, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Interplanar Beacon
6-0, FoN
26
7. RoosterCocoa: Undiscovered Paradise, Crashing Footfalls, Evil Presence, Curse of Silence
2-2 I would think. If you play curse I commandeer it and we draw, if you play footfalls without curse I commandeer it...
28
8. maxx!: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Ratchet Bomb, Leyline of Sanctity
6-0, FoN on bomb
34
9. silkster: Gemstone Mine, Restore Balance, Crashing Footfalls, Specter's Shriek
0-6. Well balanced deck!
34
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
6-0, big sharks eat Kasmina
40
11. Nasst: Mutavault, Mox Sapphire, Mox Ruby, Wistful Thinking
6-0, FoN
46
7 2/2s are only good for the mirror. Playing 6 2/2s also beat spheres. As it were, only maxx! and me would have 6-0 the zombies. crypt donate would have fare great too (39 i I replace my deck with it?)Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I really like the new banning systems, the decks and meta are completely new every round. Here was FoN vs footfalls all along, while neither card have seen play before.
This meta turned out a lot different than I expected! Really enjoying the score-based bannings as every round feels fresh.
1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Negation, Snap, Subterranean Hangar, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
I assume Snap was meant to be Snapback? With a non-blue storage land, you can't use your FoN to protect your threat. WW
6-0
2. GoblinSmashmaster: Pendelhaven, Mox Emerald, Channel, God-Pharaoh's Statue
Pendelhaven just to get it banned? FoN stops you. WW
6-0
3. dte: Commandeer, Force of negation, saprazzan cove, Shark Typhoon
*disagreement* You can always FoN my Sea's Claim, but I can't FoN your Shark token. Will come down to a race. OTP, Mutavault kills on my turn 11. You can make a 4/4 Shark on your turn 7, which kills on your turn 12 (that was the fastest kill I found). Instead, you make a smaller shark that I cannot attack past to force the draw. DD
2-2
4. alphastryk: Force of Negation, Sea’s Claim, Island, Mutavault
me
5. Phasmoid: Tropical Island, Daze, Crashing Footfalls, Crashing Footfalls
I can FoN 1 Footfalls through Daze, but not two. LL
0-6
6. Reeplcheep: Mana Crypt, Grist, the Hunger Tide, Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast, Interplanar Beacon
FoN on Mana Crypt does the job. WW
6-0
7. RoosterCocoa: Undiscovered Paradise, Crashing Footfalls, Evil Presence, Curse of Silence
Curse of Silence is a great find. If you lead with suspending Footfalls, I can't stop more it with FoN because I need Sea's Claim to stop Presence and Curse. LL
0-6
8. maxx!: Inkmoth Nexus, Cathedral of War, Ratchet Bomb, Leyline of Sanctity
You start attacking with Inkmoth on your turn 3, killing on your turn 8. If I Claim Inkmoth, you take two turns off attacking to blow up Claim with Bomb, killing on your turn 10 instead. That's always 1 turn before my Mutavault can get the job done. LL
0-6
9. silkster: Gemstone Mine, Restore Balance, Crashing Footfalls, Specter's Shriek
Footfalls and protection. LL
0-6
10. FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Negation, Commandeer, Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor
You can play Kasima with FoN backup on your turn 9, which is before my Mutavault wins on my turn 11. LL
0-6
11. Nasst: Mutavault, Mox Sapphire, Mox Ruby, Wistful Thinking
I always have to FoN Wistful Thinking or a Mox to keep my hand, then our Mutavaults stare. DD
2-2
Total: 22 points.