This thread is almost a time-sleeve.
A new B&R announcement, and the thread starts over, 3 months ago.
OT: Glad they touched nothing.
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This thread is almost a time-sleeve.
A new B&R announcement, and the thread starts over, 3 months ago.
OT: Glad they touched nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
I don't understand why people are so scared of Hermit Druid. The breakfast combo is absolute trash. Sure this guy makes it a one card combo I guess. It's still breakfast combo though.
That means you have 6-8 awful cards in your deck that you don't want in your hand ever. That is a lot of garbage.
You also lose to pretty much anything. All removal and graveyard hate beats you. You have no basics, tons of dead cards, and a green baby creature with an activated ability.
It's a turn two one card win? So that means your first turn has to have an extra mana source to play the guy that has to already be in your hand. They have to not counter it, not remove it on their turn, not pithing needle it on their turn, not waste your green source oon their turn, not stifle it, or attack your graveyard, or counter dread return on your turn. You also need to on both of these turns not have any of the 6 or more cards in your deck that CAN'T be in your hand to win be in your hand.
So assuming the stars align and you get this turn two kill so easily against a real deck all day every game I guess you're playing an unstoppable monster card.
But wait! You can turn one with only 1GGG Hermit Druid Concordant Crossroads and no trash in your hand!
Cephalid Breakfast is a 3 mana two card combo and nobody plays it. The reasons for that would still be largely present with Hermit Druid.
Try to build it and play against real decks.
Probably because it's a very stupid reason considering a Brainstorm ban would do a lot to hurt combo decks. Harder to get your combo together when you lose access to such a powerful cantrip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
Of course, I suppose that doesn't mean that it's not their reason, but it is nevertheless a stupid reason.
No DDT ban means more Pyroblast which is bad news for my Blighted. But I can manage.
Was hoping for Goblin Recruiter unban. Oh well, maybe next time.
Back to the game. See you in three months time, thread.
The current state of Modern (which I will go on the record as having no issue with) can be interpreted as proof that WOTC doesn't actually care about a format being full of those decks, at least assuming they don't dominate/win too fast/whatever other silly condition is applied.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
Not to mention that the blue cards in question also fuel combo decks, so your entire argument is coming from a false premise to begin with.
Legacy in a nutshell: SDT vs DTT vs Tendrils
This is not inaccurate, assuming you add the nebulous "hates on (insert format weakness)" category which is still limping along.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
And the bartender says, "Hey, ya can't leave that sham in here!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
And the guy says in reply, "That's no shaman. It's Dragon Stompy."
Shh, they're trying to circlejerk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
We should show our disdain about the lack of changes on Twitter
Maybe if enough people complain, things are going to change next time.
Yeah. We want survival back and fcking fast! Deck is fun to play and one of long time staples. Powerlevel far below omnitell.
Because only 1 combo deck actually runs it???Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Lace your disdain with allegations of sexism. Then it'll work for sure regardless of whether your complaint makes sense or not. You could also try allegations of "fat shaming". It worked for Kai Budde, but it hasn't been tested in a while, so the sexism route is probably the best way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
GP lille top8Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Miracles (is more like a baseruption deck but ok) (SDT)
Miracles (SDT
Infect (???)
Aggro Loam (???)
Delver (DTT)
Delver (DTT)
Aggro Loam (???)
43 Lands (???)
Then
Team America (???)
Storm (ToA)
RUG Delver (???)
Storm (ToA)
Omnitell (DTT)
Miracles (SDT)
Storm (ToA)
Omnitell (DTT)
Day 2 of the GP was
http://www.metagame.it/images/web/in...n_gp_lille.jpg
So
17% Top
26% Dig
9% Storm
And 27 different decks.
Calling BS tbh
PS: Happy for the no changes, i prefer this to a complete fuckup like banning dig (going back to the miracles ONLY metagame), banning miracles (letting junk deck like maverik exist) or banning brainstorm (making the format a combo vs hate).
Brainstorm vs Loam, with sprinkels of SDT vs DTT vs Tendrils?Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
Isn't part of the reason Miracles is so good is because it's strong against Dig Through Time decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
What exactly is wrong with letting Junk-colored decks exist?Quote:
banning miracles (letting junk deck like maverik exist)
How would this happen when the combo decks would be hurt by the banning of Brainstorm? Don't you think something like Show and Tell would be hurt by losing Brainstorm?Quote:
or banning brainstorm (making the format a combo vs hate).
Legacy is still not as degenerate as Vintage where maindeck hate is a must but it's coming close lately. You MUST have some sort of roadblock to fast cantrips into DTT in order to compete, or run that package yourself.
Practically all decks are either running the blue package (the Big 3 of Delver Tempo, Countertop, Show and Tell plus outliers like Stoneblade/Deathblade), have maindeck hate against it or try to make the package noninteractive (Death and Taxes, Loam, MUD, Chalice Merfolk) or try to race it before the DTTs come online by Turn 3 (Storm, Infect, Elves)
I don't know about you guys, but to me the format seems pretty warped.
There is more then 1 combo deck out there. Painter, Dredge and Elves would be unaffected, others would be hurt but not all to the same degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
However the control decks keeping them in check would worse then the combo decks.
the real risk is a currently suppressed combo deck becoming relatively stronger due to the weakening of the decks it is vunerable to, and taking over the meta.
That sounds like fun:Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
"Thousands of women get violated by Dig Through Time every day #givehertheDig"
"Wizards bans sex offenders from tournaments, but no DTT #dickthroughtime"
"Maybe girls don't play #mtg tournaments because they don't want to handle 4 Digs in 50 minutes."
Should probably start with something more tame for starters. :tongue:
Spaaaaaaace Diiiiiiick...Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I've actually decided to tweet this instead. :laugh:
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
Enjoy the format? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
You know that the answer is: bitch about the next card that makes deck X unplayable. The poll of this thread as well as the last hundreds of pages are a TestamentQuote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Painter is more of a prison deck that has a combo win condition in it. Also, neither it nor Dredge are particularly strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
But even in those decks that don't run Brainstorm, how does a Brainstorm ban strengthen them? Let's stop and take notes on it.
The primary situation in which Brainstorm would matter in cases like this is, of course, the classic "Brainstorm into Force of Will." If it's simply a case of finding regular hate (say, a Rest In Peace against Dredge), then Preordain works just as well because it digs as much as Brainstorm does.
But for the Brainstorm into Force of Will no longer being possible to actually matter in those matchups, you need to have a Blue mana open and a Brainstorm in hand and no Force of Will in hand and a Force of Will on the top three cards of your library and the requisite Blue card to pitch. These are unlikely to all be simultaneously true.
So I really do not see the claim that Brainstorm's banning would make combo decks overrun the format to be true.
There is a difference between the strength of the deck, and how well is is positioned in the current Metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Dredge is an extremly strong deck, but it has a major weakness, and the current meta is set up to exploit that weakness due to other cards (ie: Dig) having the same vulnerability.
This is why things like a BS ban are risky, it would shake up the meta-game and we have no way to tell what suddenly becomes well positioned that was horribly positioned beforehand.
No,l lets go back and re-read what I said, as you clearly did not. My exact words were "Painter, Dredge and Elves would be unaffected" I made 0 claims that they would get stronger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
though if these decks power level is not affected, but the rest of the metagame is weakened, then their strength in the metagame would be increased by default.
It does not work a well in the rest of the game, and there is more then just finding the piece of hate, as well BS is better at finding Hate and the cards to protect and play it, since it can move up to 3 cards into your hand, while pre-ordain only moves 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
umm, no that is not the only scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
It is the only turn 1 scenario, but there are also lines of play like T2 : Bs, pull fetch, Ponder, pre-emptively looking for that FoW you will need. while finding other cards thanks to BS swapping cards rather then drawing 1.
It would depend on how hard control decks are hit, but weakening the decks combo looses to will almost certainly INCREASE the % of the metagame that is combo decks, and that creates a chance for it to overrun the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
If the combo decks match win rates go up by even 1% that could start affecting the top 8's of major tournaments, and since it is established that the majority of the player base is just copying the decks that win this could easily snowball into combo dominating.
How a ban affects the metagame depends on how strongly the decks using the banned card are affected by it. Delver decks and miracles would be hit worse then anything else by a BS ban.
Only irrational Brainstorm lovers would argue this. Because, you know, Brainstorm is now the glue that keeps the format together. /wristsQuote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
Was really hoping Dig to be banned. It makes discard even worse than Brainstorm and thats some super legendary status tier achievement.
qftQuote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I don't think this argument holds for a few reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmcc13
First, your conflating all combo with stack-based combo, the kind Blue decks traditionally police via countermagic, as most other decks have little-to-no interactive ability. Many combo-decks aren't stack-based like Storm or Derp&Tell, but use the graveyard or the in-play-zone to drop their win-cons, locations that many more decks are capable of interacting with.
There's really good grave-hate that's been printed lately, some possibly maindeckable choices (DRS, Scooze) and backbreaking sideboard cards (RiP, Cage), and it wouldn't surprise me if Battle for Zendikar brings a few more pieces as a counter to any Standard/Modern Delve shenanigans.
And combos that happen on the battlefield are generally susceptible to removal or can be beaten out with "prison" cards/decks, especially if they have to win via the combat phase.
Second, a Brainstorm ban also hurts those stack-based combo decks quite a bit. Sculpting winning hands and fighting through disruption would be a lot more difficult without the head of the cantrip cartel. Storm might have to retune a bit, be alittle slower or less resilient. Derp&Tell might be downright unplayable (good riddance).
Third, Brainstorm (along with DTT) makes discard and other hand disruption generally bad, locking out a potential second policeman of combo strategies. Anyone who plays Modern or who played in the last days of "big" 1.X knows that discard can be extremely effective at disrupting combo decks, giving non-Blue strategies favorable matchups against that broad archetype. Reminder: Jund decks were able to beat combo in 1.X that had access to Ponder, Preordain, fast rituals, and threatened T3-T4 kills. I really think it's rather evident that Brainstorm (and now DTT) are what push discard to the fringes of the meta, rather than the forefront, where can serve as another bulwark against combo.
I think it's not really murky at all what would come of a BS (and DTT) ban; we'd have a much more interesting meta, at least for a few months. Beats the current staleness.
Those who are complaining are those who are taken out of their comfort zone, and their followers (who can't think for themselves or are just friends).
The Dig Through time metagame is a rich metagame, enabling to get out of the Shardless/Miracle Diptych. Certainly, Elves has become unplayable, but we have now Dig through time decks (that offer some variety of decks - Grixis, UWR, Omnishow), strong non blue archetypes, like lands.
This metagame is quite enjoyable. I wish the metagame could change more, to make legacy more competitive (like banning CB for 4 months, then BS, then something else, just to be able to to craft over the metagame) but just going backwards and banning dtt would be boring.
Storm is in pretty good shape against blue in general and Brainstorm + DTT in particular with all their "discard and other hand disruption" being "generally bad".Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaican Zombie Legend
This leads me to two possible conclusions: Either your argument is simply not true at all and/or non-storm players plain suck using their discard efficiently against blue decks and combo decks in general.
"Variety" is a hyperbole for a bunch decks which run 30+ cards overlap (lands colors aside) as th.eir core and the only "variety" comes from the question if they kill you with Delver, Pyromancer, SFM, TNN or EmrakulQuote:
Originally Posted by JosephK
Not really, pre khans miracles was even more dominant because no (fair) blue deck had a positive MU against it, now grixis can at least have a 50/50 MU and omni is kinda scary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Maverik top tier metagame was like the worst legacy had in a long time, that deck was literally a no brainer, just slamming big threats each turn and no fair deck had a chance to compete, and the MU vs combo was not that bad considering GSZ for hate and flusterstorm sideboard.
If you ban brainstorm you hit super hard on blue controls and aggrocontrols, no brainstorm combo deck would improve a lot, and probably non blue decks would just suck in that environment.
I played dredge in tournaments and i had good results even in the cruise metagame, i think you dont understant the sick raw power of the deck if you say it's just bad, for example non blue deck literally cant deal with dredge at all most of the times, even having your rip in hand you will be signing the slips before you can tap 2 mana.
Sure the metagame can adapt to dredge, but you could play belcher, elves and a lot more.
Basicly if you hit the blue hard enought you get another shitty format like modern because no deck can deal with combo by just having catch-all hate (aka Force of Will) and go for specific hate will not solve the problem at all.
He's looking at it from a fair decks point of view, not from a Storm point of view. He's right that discard gets invalidated by brainstorm and DTT, as means for a fair deck to disrupt combo. You can't compare it with the function of discard in Storm (usually protection instead of hate), and I suppose a Stormplayer usually goes off before a DTT can resolve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
No blue deck, except literally every BUG deck. And several non-blue decks like Jund. Dig is what pushed Miracles over the top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
If you can't beat a typical Storm player with Hymn + a reasonable clock, then I don't know what to say. If they Brainstom to hide cards it's likely even better because now they lose their next two draw steps and likely can't kill you until they draw more cards (broadly) and more specifically of whatever you hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
Maverick had 2 or 3 toolboxes, depending on how you built it, and without discard and counters its plan against combo and control was very reactive. You had to anticipate your opponent's plays in order to be able to disrupt them. You really had to understand both your own deck and your opponent's. I don't think it was easier to pilot than D&T or Blade Control, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
Clearly you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
Noctalor wins most ignorant poster award. What are you even going an about Maverick? Nothing yousaid about the deck was true at all. It is a pretty difficult deck to play and there actually felt like there was a real meta there. Maverick beat rug, rug beat fast combo, combo beat maverick (sometimes). Then there were meta predators like Nic Fit which beat Maverick and RUG but had a very poor combo match up. And stone blade was still the classic 50/50 deck. And of course there was still show and derp, but it wasn't absurd at all because even the fair decks had access to stuff like Karakas. Brainstorm was still at a high % but it wasn't like it is now where you are simply gimping yourself by not running the cantrip cartel
From memory, I could beat Maverick with Goblins given a fast start or drawing the corresponding sideboard options. Goblins is a fair deck yes?
So if you guys can't even agree on what the format looked like 6 months to 2 years ago, why are you even arguing AT each other? What's the point?
We found the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor