Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

Honestly, CB is too much unneeded work to maintain from my experience. Since other options are working I don't see a reason to incorporate one that hasn't worked already. Even vs a lot of matchups where you may want it (Elves, Lands for example) I was boarding them out anyway with SDT around.

I had B2B for a little while, but Anuraag convinced me that just playing a third Surgical would be better for the Lands matchup. Moon and FtA are really nice vs lots of the bug decks etc, but I'm hoping Mentor will close out the games without these things. If I was playing the red splash I'd probably play a couple of Moons though, it's better than B2B.

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* I agree on Moon being better than B2B. I've got about 5 leagues under my belt right now (averaging 4-1) and B2B has been rather underwhelming.
* I haven't found counterbalance to be hard to setup at all. It's still backbreaking vs decks like storm/grixis delver.

My red sideboard

* 2 Blood Moon
* 3 Pyroblast
* 2 Mentor (Are we sure this is better than Gideon vs BUG/relevant decks?)
* 1 Vclique (1 Main)
* 2 Surgical
* 1 STP (#3)
* 2 Flusterstorm
* 2 Ethersworn (very tempted to run counterbalance)

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Originally Posted by KZhang

Hey! Nice playing with you on MTGO the other day. My thought is that for Storm, Canonist is just better.

• Even with a CB floating 1 or 2 on top, Storm can potentially still go off, but they have to get rid of Canonist. Canonist also provides an additional clock.
• The downside of Canonist is that ANT now runs 2x pyroclasm and a number of fatal pushes, and By Force SB.
• The main upside of CB against storm as i currently see it is that they no longer run decay - and aside from Echoing, have no way to remove a CB.
• Not sure if CB is consistent enough for Delver/Burn matchups though.

@WhiteFace/ItsUnfair

• How's the SneakShow Matchups like?
• What would you feel is currently our good matchups/bad matchups?
• For mentor, in my initial testing, does not play too well with Portent. It does generate a trigger, but does not allow us to chain cantrips well. Has that ever been an issue for you?

@Everyone

• I see alot less Decays now. Is it just me? or do you all have the same experience?

PS: is there anyone streaming the new miracles?

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I am pretty sure Whitefaces has not yet lost to Sneak with this. Lots of things and they play overall less Boseiju.
Right now, the absurd win rate means almost everything feels good =P But I'm horribly biased so I'll have them respond more realistically. Storm is unfavored for sure, which is why you're seeing more canonists and such.

I can envision Infect being a bit rough too, but the deck has existed for like a week, we have a long way to go!

Combo, in general, feels bad because the way we flex our power is across two facets: enabling Terminus and Predicting forever.

And yes, lot less decays now, but also, we don't give a shit about decay anymore at all! Not that we did before, but still, it was annoying at times.

Regarding Mentor, Portent doesn't really combo with mentor but it's purpose is to keep the rest of the deck's engine turned on, which is Predict. Incidental Ponders and Brainstorms is what Mentor turns on, as well as killing REALLY REALLY FAST in matchups that people board out removal (which is almost all of them now!

Do we have a twitch/discord chat or something to discuss?

@Kzhang - Nice Marathon match vs you (I'm Char_Aznable).

Regarding Storm, what are our "menu" of options?

* Canonist: Pros - Clock/Easy to Cast. Cons - Dies to By Force/Limits our cantripping/Doesn't pitch to Force.
* Counterbalance: Pros - Locks them out/Multi-match utility. Cons - Requires Setup
* Meddling Mage: Pros - Clock/Easy to Cast/Doesn't die to By Force/Good vs S&S/Pitches to Force. Cons - Doesn't shut down enough.
* Sanctum Prelate: Too expensive
* Gideon of the Trials: Too expensive, but nigh impossible to deal with.
* Flusterstorm: Works, but weak vs Discard
* Mindbreak Trap: Pros - Stops them dead. Cons - Weak to discard.

How exactly is Flusterstorm weak vs discard? I think it's amazing vs discard as it is A) active on t1 and B) doesn't create card disadvantage like FoW. It is also hard as hell to answer.

If you want a Canonist that doesn't die to removal and can pitch to Force all in one, I got you: Arcane Laboratory. If you fear REB's and still want to dodge removal, Rule of Law is an option. Sadly these cards still die to AD, but anything that doesn't is 4cc and probably comes down too slow.

First thing they'll nail on the critical turn is flusterstorm or force.

I think the big problem with Arcane Laboratory/Rule of Law is that it costs 3 mana. If you stick it, it will probably win you the game, but a good portion of the time you'll just die before being able to cast it.

Anyways, here's a crazy idea. Is it ever justified to splash black in this sort of deck? A combination of countermagic, hatebears, and discard could improve our combo matchups. Thoughtseize/Duress is always good, or you can run Therapy which has synergy with Mentor from the board. I know we're already debating the merits of the classic red splash, but black might be an alternative option if we're interested in fighting against decks like Storm specifically.

How about Counterbalance? :>
Black splash did get better thanks to REB being less relevant and more random T1-2 Combodecks.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

Thanks!

Portent into a Terminus does happen, but not as much as I initially thought. Portent has just been a really solid cantrip in general, being able to set up Terminus is a great bonus. It's used most of the time to set Predict up. I almost only use it in the late game on the opponent when it's pretty much wrapped up and I have a Jace/clock in play. As you say, of course it changes a bit based on what's going on, but it's been used with Predict and then a late game 'lock' more than anything else.

It happens as always. We don't have as much control over them as before so you do have to use Brainstorms a little more sparingly, but not as much as I initially though.

Jace is the number one win con. Sometimes it's technically Snap and Clique beats or an Entreat later on, but he creatures such an advantage that it's impossible for the opponent to come back. Mentor from the board has been great though, so there's that.

In other news, I just got another 5-0! Unfortunately my second one didn't get posted. This time I used the changes I mentioned above. +1 StP -1 Clique in the md, -3 sfm package +2 Mentor +1 Clique in the sb.

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Thanks for this -- very informative. I barely got a bit of experience under my belt with old Miracles before the ban, so I'm very much playing catch up compared to everyone here.

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Originally Posted by Kanti

If you want a Canonist that doesn't die to removal and can pitch to Force all in one, I got you: Arcane Laboratory. If you fear REB's and still want to dodge removal, Rule of Law is an option. Sadly these cards still die to AD, but anything that doesn't is 4cc and probably comes down too slow.

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Mana Maze is another (albeit strange) option.

Counterbalance has been really strong for me in the relevant matchups, but I sense a relative lack of support in this thread. Tell me, have you guys actually tried it over 20+ matches, or is this pure conjecture?

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Originally Posted by KZhang

Hey! Nice playing with you on MTGO the other day. My thought is that for Storm, Canonist is just better.

• Even with a CB floating 1 or 2 on top, Storm can potentially still go off, but they have to get rid of Canonist. Canonist also provides an additional clock.
• The downside of Canonist is that ANT now runs 2x pyroclasm and a number of fatal pushes, and By Force SB.
• The main upside of CB against storm as i currently see it is that they no longer run decay - and aside from Echoing, have no way to remove a CB.
• Not sure if CB is consistent enough for Delver/Burn matchups though.

@WhiteFace/ItsUnfair

• How's the SneakShow Matchups like?
• What would you feel is currently our good matchups/bad matchups?
• For mentor, in my initial testing, does not play too well with Portent. It does generate a trigger, but does not allow us to chain cantrips well. Has that ever been an issue for you?

@Everyone

• I see alot less Decays now. Is it just me? or do you all have the same experience?

PS: is there anyone streaming the new miracles?

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Agree about Canonist, it's been amazing for me. Once I've landed it I simply keep up mana and counter every removal spell aimed at it. If the opponent uses a discard spell on me, I use that opportunity to cast cantrips, otherwise clock them for 2 and keep passing. I've even been bringing in Hydroblast to counter Pyroclasm and By force, which has been Duressed over a FoW multiple times which says something. I've also had HALF my Storm opponent concede game two to a turn two Canonist. It shows that for now at least, most of them are boarding wrong, we should take these free wins while we can.

I had CB is the first lists I played. Maybe I should try it again, but at the moment I'm liking the sb plans for the matchups we'd want CB, except burn. But I was losing to them even with CB at the beginning too, it's really hard to leverage it.

Sneak and Show matchup has been amazing. Min is correct in that I haven't lost to it with this list yet, I feel like we're pretty favoured.

Good matchups - it's hard to be so sure yet, but most fair decks feel good. Elves is harder than before, but we have the tools to win. Aluren and Food Chain I imagine are tough as well, I managed to sneak a win in the fifth round of the league yesterday vs Aluren, but it was really hard, Mentor was invaluable.

Bad matchups - Burn is awful, I'm pretty much chalking that as unwinnable at the moment as Mentor has been better than the SfM package everywhere else. Storm still can be tough especially TES I've found. Infect isn't great. Some Hymn > Liliana draws with a quick clock from Team America can get you, but if we get to the late game Jace and Predict demolish them.

It's a small anti synergy between Mentor and Portent, but not bad enough to not run Mentor for. It's come up once where I had to draw an instant in their upkeep rather than keep the chain going, but it didn't change the game at all. When you're boarding Mentor in you can keep it in mind and use Portents earlier.

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Originally Posted by silly

I think the big problem with Arcane Laboratory/Rule of Law is that it costs 3 mana. If you stick it, it will probably win you the game, but a good portion of the time you'll just die before being able to cast it.

Anyways, here's a crazy idea. Is it ever justified to splash black in this sort of deck? A combination of countermagic, hatebears, and discard could improve our combo matchups. Thoughtseize/Duress is always good, or you can run Therapy which has synergy with Mentor from the board. I know we're already debating the merits of the classic red splash, but black might be an alternative option if we're interested in fighting against decks like Storm specifically.

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Funnily enough I started with the black splash! It was mostly for EE as I had two in the maindeck, but I also had three Thoughtseize in the board to combine with Snapcasters. It was alright, it definitely improves Storm, but splashing has a pretty big cost to it and I'd like to avoid it if possible. If the combo matchups get harder I'd reconsider. Arcane Lab/Rule of Law would be really strong. I like the clock that Canonist brings with it, but I think we can survive until T3 OK. I might try 2 Canonist 1 Lab!

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

Counterbalance has been really strong for me in the relevant matchups, but I sense a relative lack of support in this thread. Tell me, have you guys actually tried it over 20+ matches, or is this pure conjecture?

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Not 20+, but about ~15. Online and irl. It did what it did, I countered a bunch of spells with it, but I realised that the Brainstorms, Snapcasters and Jace activations I was using to keep it going I could just be using to answer whatever the opponent was playing too. If it's working for you, by all means keep jamming it, maybe I'm wrong and I'll try it again soon. But at the moment I'm really liking playing without it.

I've been testing both builds and will start keeping records (and hopefully 5-0s....soon. 2 4-1s in a row).

How do we address the burn & storm matchup? Counterbalance is steller vs burn (and decent vs storm), particularly now that exquisite firecraft has left sideboard. Failing that, do we consider something as janky as *Gasp* kor firewalker?

I think it would be great if we created a discord channel for discussion.

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

I've been testing both builds and will start keeping records (and hopefully 5-0s....soon. 2 4-1s in a row).

How do we address the burn & storm matchup? Counterbalance is steller vs burn (and decent vs storm), particularly now that exquisite firecraft has left sideboard. Failing that, do we consider something as janky as *Gasp* kor firewalker?

I think it would be great if we created a discord channel for discussion.

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I hope you manage some 5-0s soon too! Prove me wrong about CB ;) I've played in seven leagues now, getting three 5-0s, two 4-1s and two 3-2s, so we've definitely got legs as Min said.

I think the Storm matchup is OK for now, it was bad at the beginning. I have 3 Canonist, 3 Fluster, 3 Surgical and an additional Clique in my sb, this is addressing it imo.

I don't think CB is actually that good vs burn. People are still playing a million Firecrafts, their curve is pretty erratic, I had plenty of games where I didn't have enough cantrips/time to set up CB reasonably. If burn gets bigger then I'll probably bring the SfM package back, but I'm just accepting it's bad for now, I don't want to dedicate a SB slot as narrow as Kor Firewalker for it. You need to pick the battles you think you'll fight.

I'll let you know about a chat.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

I hope you manage some 5-0s soon too! Prove me wrong about CB ;) I've played in seven leagues now, getting three 5-0s, two 4-1s and two 3-2s, so we've definitely got legs as Min said.

I think the Storm matchup is OK for now, it was bad at the beginning. I have 3 Canonist, 3 Fluster, 3 Surgical and an additional Clique in my sb, this is addressing it imo.

I don't think CB is actually that good vs burn. People are still playing a million Firecrafts, their curve is pretty erratic, I had plenty of games where I didn't have enough cantrips/time to set up CB reasonably. If burn gets bigger then I'll probably bring the SfM package back, but I'm just accepting it's bad for now, I don't want to dedicate a SB slot as narrow as Kor Firewalker for it. You need to pick the battles you think you'll fight.

I'll let you know about a chat.

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Maybe Entlightened Tutor package plus a CoP: Red or a Warmth or so?
This would also increase the odds of getting Ethersworn Canonist against Storm.
(Not to mention all the other possible applications.)

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Maybe Entlightened Tutor package plus a CoP: Red or a Warmth or so?
This would also increase the odds of getting Ethersworn Canonist against Storm.
(Not to mention all the other possible applications.)

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E Tutor sets up Predict too :cool:

Jokes aside, I wouldn't want to play it for the card disadvantage. There's so many cantrips in the deck I feel like we don't need to run tutors.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

I don't think CB is actually that good vs burn. People are still playing a million Firecrafts, their curve is pretty erratic, I had plenty of games where I didn't have enough cantrips/time to set up CB reasonably. If burn gets bigger then I'll probably bring the SfM package back, but I'm just accepting it's bad for now, I don't want to dedicate a SB slot as narrow as Kor Firewalker for it. You need to pick the battles you think you'll fight.

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Is an SFM package with Bskull even worth the slots against Burn? It's awfully slow, you can only start gaining life either turn 4, or prevent some damage from them not being able to attack into it by turn 3. But they can shoot almost any of their spells at the SFM and set you back. I've never been too impressed by it as Burn tech, feels too slow and clunky. How relevant would it be for other matchups, do you think?

(I don't play MTGO, just paper. My meta usually has 1-3 burn players show up for win-a-duals and such, so it's something I'd need to be concerned with. I realise it's probably pretty negligible of a concern online)

My only problem right now with the main board is...

...Portent doesn't exist in foil :cry:

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Originally Posted by AppallinglyDull

Mana Maze is another (albeit strange) option.

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I have played (and would basically only play) Mana Maze, in a deck that want to go Snapcaster Mage -> Thoughtseize. Otherwise if our deck can't use it it seems like a worse Arcane Laboratory (which I have played a lot with and is still good at 3 mana).

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Originally Posted by It Is Unfair

I have played (and would basically only play) Mana Maze, in a deck that want to go Snapcaster Mage -> Thoughtseize. Otherwise if our deck can't use it it seems like a worse Arcane Laboratory (which I have played a lot with and is still good at 3 mana).

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Mana maze is essentially arcane lab against the relevant decks imho (elves, storm), and keep you a bit more open compared to laboratory (you can flashback swords or play terminus + counterspell etc...) while costing 1 less.

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Originally Posted by Monsinne

Is an SFM package with Bskull even worth the slots against Burn? It's awfully slow, you can only start gaining life either turn 4, or prevent some damage from them not being able to attack into it by turn 3. But they can shoot almost any of their spells at the SFM and set you back. I've never been too impressed by it as Burn tech, feels too slow and clunky. How relevant would it be for other matchups, do you think?

(I don't play MTGO, just paper. My meta usually has 1-3 burn players show up for win-a-duals and such, so it's something I'd need to be concerned with. I realise it's probably pretty negligible of a concern online)

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True, it's not a slam dunk 'I win' card always, but Burn isn't played enough online or where I play to need something super narrow. If you need some options for it, maybe try Chill? Could be pretty potent with Mentors. Otherwise CoP: Red seems great as Asthereal suggested.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Mana maze is essentially arcane lab against the relevant decks imho (elves, storm), and keep you a bit more open compared to laboratory (you can flashback swords or play terminus + counterspell etc...) while costing 1 less.

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Yes and No. There are still quite a few easy empty the warrens lines that ANT can they can take to potentially beat mana maze (example:duress, ponder, d rit, led, infernal, empty), and TES even more so. Past in flames is a lot more difficult but with enough gitaxian probes in the GY it is sometimes still possible. Don't get me wrong, I like Mana Maze and usually play it in the sideboard of my UB control decks.

The fact that canonist can attack for 2 is also really good against storm.

One of the advantages however of Arcane Lab (or mana maze) is that you can board it in against elves and aluren (stops combo + shardless agent) and not have to worry about it going away when you cast Terminus.

Ok, what about ultimate hate: Leyline of sanctity?
No burn spells, no storm, no discard

More extreme is Aegis of Gods, but it dies from anything. But it's really cheap. T2 on play vs storm will give him some troubles, i think.

I think canonist is better than laboratory\Rule is because of clock. You play it, you start dealing damage and your opponent need to find answers, while you can prepare your hand and protect him.

SfM packadge is good vs some decks like eldrazy, where you can suddenly loose ton of your life, but not on t2 or t3, if you have yous StP prepared.


And i love this new deck. It's something like Miracles v3.0.1 beta :D If Mentor Miracles was v.2.0

Time to call it Miracle 95. Can't wait for Miracle ME and Miracle Vista.

I am pretty sure than Canonist is just better, the fact is can be hit by anti artefact is irrevelant. I'm really happy if my storm opponent board in that types of card, as it will make them difficult to combo trough my counterspell and my clique/snap clock.

Also, Canonist is really superior against Aluren, as you can flash it on the board on the good timing.

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Originally Posted by Anseku

Ok, what about ultimate hate: Leyline of sanctity?
No burn spells, no storm, no discard

More extreme is Aegis of Gods, but it dies from anything. But it's really cheap. T2 on play vs storm will give him some troubles, i think.

I think canonist is better than laboratory\Rule is because of clock. You play it, you start dealing damage and your opponent need to find answers, while you can prepare your hand and protect him.

SfM packadge is good vs some decks like eldrazy, where you can suddenly loose ton of your life, but not on t2 or t3, if you have yous StP prepared.


And i love this new deck. It's something like Miracles v3.0.1 beta :D If Mentor Miracles was v.2.0

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I have also been thinking of Leylines, they are powerful for sure, and "solving" the burn issue would also be really good. But I haven't got around to testing it yet. I know some people tested Aegis of the Gods but since I never heard back from them about it I assume it wasn't a success.

Yep, Canonists have been great, no need to change them for now imo, it's a good plan. I did try Aegis of the Gods too :smile: But Canonists are better.

Edit: Here's your answer about Aegis. It was good, but they were able to cantrip into removal a lot easier and still play EtW.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

Yep, Canonists have been great, no need to change them for now imo, it's a good plan. I did try Aegis of the Gods too :smile: But Canonists are better.

Edit: Here's your answer about Aegis. It was good, but they were able to cantrip into removal a lot easier and still play EtW.

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Well, just as i thought.
Then, just pack more canonists and setup your hand, full of countermagic :D

I like the benefits of being straight UW, but as more people pick this up, will red be necessary to combat mirrors?

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Originally Posted by itrytostorm

I like the benefits of being straight UW, but as more people pick this up, will red be necessary to combat mirrors?

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I think so, yes. I wish we could stay straight UW and find something great for the mirror, but Pyroblast is too good.

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Originally Posted by itrytostorm

I like the benefits of being straight UW, but as more people pick this up, will red be necessary to combat mirrors?

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UA to Jace -> Predict will do the job :)
And there wil be no CB to counter.
Just now i think more stable manabase will do the trick. We whant to get UU or UW on t2 and UUW or UWW on t3.

In prevoius version we could get second W only when we were setuping entreat, but now we whant it as soon as possible, and opponents wastelands can get us.
So i would prefer testing straight UW version for now, with lot's of basics and 5 Fetches, that can searcj for basic plains.

I'm placing an order for sideboard cards/potential sideboard cards - What do you recommend buying? I'm thinking Humility/Venser/Blue Blasts/Staticaster/K-return

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

I'm placing an order for sideboard cards/potential sideboard cards - What do you recommend buying? I'm thinking Humility/Venser/Blue Blasts/Staticaster/K-return

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Humility is bonkers strong, though not the best synergy with Snapcaster - still grab a couple imo, it's just so strong. I think everyone should have at least some number of Staticasters in a pile somewhere. Blazing Volley & By Force might be worth having a couple around. Meddling Mage is nice. I haven't seen many people running it but I think having a few Invasive Surgery available is nice.

Playing this list is some hot shit-- kind of like finding out about Silkk the Shocker back in 1995, before he blew up and all of the masses ruined a good thing. Cherish this moment, guys; it will be over soon.

I'm experimenting with a few of the variable elements of the deck just like everyone else; Clique has been a little underwhelming as a maindeck tool, so I'm starting them out in the side for Baneslayer Angels. Will also try Mentors in that slot later today.

Got a few others:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...gue-2017-05-22

Humility/Moat is a great option against Eldrazi. Against Elves/Mavericky decks like 4C Loam, they just increase our exposure to Gaddock Teeg. You really need to Swords that guy: he is a complete asshole and will stop everything we do if unanswered.

Over under on how many weeks before we get back to established decks/decks to beat?

* Established: 2 weeks
* DTB: I'll be bold and say the GP

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

Over under on how many weeks before we get back to established decks/decks to beat?

* Established: 2 weeks
* DTB: I'll be bold and say the GP

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Hate to be the crow,

http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/pod...the-atopalypse

Some Legacy content producers (I know they might read this thread), dismissed this new Miracles as tier one. I'm not big on the term tier or dtb to begin with. Just want to address their points. Old Miracles is indeed a combo-control deck. This new Miracles, it has that Dig Through Time Omni-tell play-style to it, cantrip heavy, yet it doesn't have that combo element of show and tell. Potential is where I would evaluate as.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Hate to be the crow,

http://www.thebrainstormshow.com/pod...the-atopalypse

Some Legacy content producers (I know they might read this thread), dismissed this new Miracles as tier one. I'm not big on the term tier or dtb to begin with. Just want to address their points. Old Miracles is indeed a combo-control deck. This new Miracles, it has that Dig Through Time Omni-tell play-style to it, cantrip heavy, yet it doesn't have that combo element of show and tell. Potential is where I would evaluate as.

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They only knew of Osman's original 5-0 list and have neither played against or seen in action these new lists. Wilson is often one to dismiss something immediately =P. They recorded this before this weekend's fast flurry of success.

EDIT: That being said, I'm not comfortable with counting my eggs before they hatch. We have a long way to go. We need to get past the "free win" territory and see what happens once people actively react to Terminus returning to the format.

Ah well, we tried our best guys. Guess we should just give up then, thanks for the heads up twndomn.

Joking aside, I couldn't care less if people think this is viable or not. I've played enough Legacy to know if something is good or not, and this is good. I don't know how it'll end up, but I'm winning with it and enjoying myself while doing so.

Agreed. I think the general combo of massive resource intensive counterwar/3-for-1 terminus into slam jace/predict is the real power behind our deck. Magic is ultimately a game of CA and this deck just 2-for-1 (or better) like no ones business.

I've also noticed that I'm starting to win some games just by aggressively portenting opponents when they mulligan + scry to top. Prob. just the lucky side of variance, but it seems pretty strong.

Legacy Challenge decklists got posted:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...nge-2017-05-22