[Deck] The Rock

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I can't tell if you're serious...

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I'm sorry, You'll have to explain the issue a little more if you want me to be able to understand what you would like me to explain further. I am serious though.

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The list you sent me seems interesting, not your traditional rock list, but more of a New Horizons/Rock cross-breed.

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makes sense why I'm hesitant about posting the list. I like to think of it more as 43-lands meets Stax meets Rock. It functions as all of those decks as well. Extremely awkward to pilot or play against. Looking forward to helping with your list though. Just because mine isn't normal doesn't mean it didn't start that way.

Damion, I really like the direction you're taking the deck. I was actually building a deck basically "Land Stax", involving the usual brutality of Stax, alongside a small land toolbox like Lands. Problem being, it worked exceedingly well against some decks, but died to both Stax and Lands hate.

I would still say post your list, because I can see where you're coming from with each of your choices. I don't necessarily agree with some choices, but if you made 6-2 in Atlanta, then I guess you're doing something right :D

I mean, personally, I'd cut some Edicts for Swords, because I really love Swords too much to not have it in a white deck, but all in all, I think you addressed several key problems with modern rock with your interesting decklist.

Number 1: Speed. I've been playing Rock off and on since 02, and the Rock isn't a fast deck. Problem being, Legacy is now a fast meta. Birds and Sakura tribe elder I'm finding are dying to deeds, or randomly getting hosed, so no real acceleration happens. Even if the do stay on the table, I'm finding them sub-par. Your inclusion of Exploration speeds the deck up a bunch, and is also a huge Jedi Mind Trick if I ever saw one :D

Number 2: Life. Honestly, I haven't won a game versus Zoo in a while. Usually, I blow their crap up, then I just get burned the hell out for the last 12 points. The inclusion of a Baneslayer seems good, not only for life, but just for changing the gap that usually occurs in life totals with Rock. It turns the gap around and makes Price of Progress (I still see it in Zoo locally) a lot less enticing to play. Personally, I'd play a 2/2 split of Tombstalker and Baneslayer, but again, personal choice.

I've been finding Rock can deal with goblins. I've had no trouble with Gobbos, but more with Merfolk. It could be locally the Fish players are better, but I've honestly found that I can't land a deed, or a Vindicate to save my life. Moreover, I just get Wastelanded and beat upon by several fish. It really hurts. Plague is never usually enough to hurt them, since they play infinite Lords.

Damion, I'd definitely say post the list, as it warrants discussion. I'd like to pick apart your list constructively for everyone to see, since I really love what you're doing.


Now, on to my list after a brief explanation. I built this back a few years ago when Countertop was the dominating force. It runs at primarily a 3 CMC curve to dodge the Counterbalance decks of old that h ad 0-2 "3 CMC" drops. The deck worked fine then, but now as the meta has changed and progressed, the deck is running a bit slow. I've won tournaments with it recently, but I've had rather bad matchups against Storm (no surprise there), Zoo/Burn, and Merfolk. I understand some of the decks previously listed are the bad matchups, but I'd just like to see if we can shore up some of these weaknesses.

3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tomstalker
2 Eternal Witness

4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
3 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volrath's Stronghold

I'd be glad to hear some constructive criticism, and I'd love for you to try it on workstation. It's not a terrible deck as is, and I'd be happy to explain any choices.

-Matt

i really like the previous list, it answers some questions i had about my own build, what i find extremely intresting is that you used phyrexian arena instead of confidant
the whole deck is quite heavily on boardcontrol, discard, and simply big fat beats, maybe it would not be that bad of an idea to take this list and adapt it to metas of these days (but i for my part would never want to be missing kitchen finks and divining top in my list)

as of lately i thought of cutting confidant from my list in favor of inquisition of kozilek, or pridemage, or stoneforge mystic with equipment package, i have grown more and more dissatisfied with confidant, and i have noticed i was even often shuffling him away if i saw him on top of my library with top, i think confidant does no longer serve the right purposes for me at least
the rock was always a deck with answers to everything, confidant provides card advantage if he sticks(which rarely happens), but just for example divining top with shuffling effects and a lot of mana gives you just the cards you need

as for me, i will probably cut confidant, and search for a more "multitasking" card to replace him

otherwise i was thinking to run recurring nightmare as a 2 of, to abuse the hell out of kitchen finks and witnesses

I dropped Dark Confidant for a few reasons. First and foremost, I don't own any anymore, and second, I found with a curve average on 3, I was taking huge hits off Confidant, especially if I flip Tombstalker, or Lord of Extinction when I was playing him.

Recurring Nightmare is great in the deck, but I've found it only becomes abusive in the late game. This is totally fine of course, so have fun doing your ridiculous shenanigans :D

-Matt

Matt,

are you having issues with Wastelands or Moons? I'll assume that you have grips in the board to help but is that enough?

* I don't have to post my list. Starcitygames did it for me... :(

thanks matt for the reply, confidant being to risky was also one of my worries, i only wanted him with divining top, and i ended up shuffling him away with the next fetch if i saw him on top of my library (funny)

if i would now run recurring nightmare, what changes would you suggerst? run inquisition of kozilek with cabal theraphy as discard, or include shriekmaw and nightmare, or something completely different?

I do have a bit of an issue with Wasteland, mostly in the first 2 turns of the game. If I don't draw land and I get stuck on 2, it really starts to hurt. I'll be honest, I don't see a ton of Blood Moon in my Meta, but with 3 basics, I am able to beat Imperial Painter (so long as I fetch for basics, of course).

Link us to the post on SCG, Damion!

Personally, the sideboard I'm running for my inbred meta is:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Pithing Needle
4 Engineered Plague

I've done quite well against the matches I see most often: Dredge, Goblins, Bant, etc. I really should have Grips in the board, but every time I play, I never really end up needing them, or it's just insult to injury (ex. Stax).

@ Aggrosteve:

If I were running Recurring Nightmare, I'd personally break the list down to square one and start again. It really depends if you're going to base the deck around Recurring Nightmare, or if you're just going to add it as a 1 or 2-of for inevitability near the late game. If you were running Nightmare, I'd probably run something like:

Shriekmaw
Kitchen Finks
Eternal Witness

and then of course your fatties: Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, KoTR, etc. Nice thing with Nightmare is you could also run a 1-of Deranged Hermit. 1) For food to feed your Nightmare, and b) Recurring that bastard several times is really fun, and is good. Personally, I've never been a fan of Cabal Therapy. It just seems really conditional. I mean, if you were playing it with, say, Bloodghast, then maybe, but even with Recurring Nightmare, you'll be sacing creatures, even if you get them back, naming random stuff you hope he has in hand. I'm more a fan of targeted discard, along with Hymn. If you wanted to run Thoughtseize or Inquisition, try a 3/3 split. You don't get horribly hosed by the life-loss of the Seize, but you're also getting a baby Seize out of it with Inquisition. I've tried Inquisition and think it's a lovely card, since it takes most things (everything in Gobbos minus Commander, everything in Merfolk, Goyf, Teeg, Clique, etc.etc.etc.) It just grabs so many annoying creatures that Duress doesn't catch. Also, with the split, you still get to pick out your Smokestacks and Force of Wills, just slightly less often.


Alright, well, I figured since the actual list is out, I might as well critique the living crap out of your list Damion, or shall I say, Ian...

First of all, congratulations of making the Top 20 of the SCG Atlanta Open. That's an awesome feat, with Rock no less.

The link is here, if you don't mind me posting Ian: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=32571

and for those of you that are too lazy to click the link, seriously guys:

GWB Rock by Ian Ellis

Maindeck:

Artifacts
2 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
1 Baneslayer Angel
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
3 Exploration
2 Pernicious Deed

Instants
3 Diabolic Edict

Sorceries
2 Armageddon
1 Primal Command
1 Ravages Of War
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Basic Lands
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Marsh Flats
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas
1 Kor Haven
1 The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale

Sideboard:
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Choke
4 Leyline Of The Void
1 Bojuka Bog


First of all, as in the post I did a few days ago, a few of you may have noticed the inconsistencies with the deck as of late: lack of initial, continual steam, and of course, life. Ian seems to have dealt with this via Baneslayer Angel, Kor Haven, and Exploration/Crucible of Worlds. But, there's a few choices I don't understand.

a) Why Diabolic Edict? For random crap like Mongoose, Progenitus, and the like? Did you ever feel like they just sacced their crap creature to your Edict? Personally, I feel like I miss Swords for this slot. I'm so used to picking this tool for this job, and here, it feels like I've been given a shovel to assassinate the President. It can be done, but it just feels really awkward.

b) I'm digging Exploration/Crucible. As I said before, I'm running a deck with the main engine being Exploration/Crucible (it's an Eternal Garden/New Horizons cross) and the engine itself is so versatile. Good on you for putting this in here. I'd personally love another Crucible for a 3/3 split, but I'm not sure what to cut. But all around, very stellar.

c) The low curve and the addition of Top allows you to cheat with Dark Confidant. I love it. Only problem being, 3 four drops, and a 5 drop make the non-Top application of Confidant seem dicey to me. If I were going to build this, I might stick some Arenas here. I find Confidant gets removed fast, and people don't pack a ton of art/enchantment removal in the Main.

d) 2 Deeds seems weird to me. It could be I'm so used to having 7 deeds (4 deed, 3 witness) in the same deck, so maybe this is just a preference issue. Any deck with deed is good in my books.

e) If you play Crucible, why not play Armageddon and screw over your opponent? My thoughts exactly. But again, I'd run 3 Crucibles. I'm digging the Ravages, but sadly, I cannot afford. Question for you Ian: do you have an English one?

f) Why the Primal Command? I understand last ditch life or creature search, but what have you been using the most out of its abilities? The card choice itself is very intriguing, and I'd love some explanation. Seems randomly good.

g) To me, it seems like you're running very few actual mana producing lands (what, 10?). I'm just so used to running a bajillion mana producing lands, how are you finding it? Having that many fetches seems good with KoTR, and for searching out the colour you want, but it seems like you could run out of lands to fetch (maybe).

h) Your toolkit land choice seems good. I'd opt for a Stronghold maybe, but your list seems strong as it. How often do you find yourself Wasteland-ing without a Crucible on board?

i) Sideboard seems solid. Thorn for Combo, Finks (for Zoo?), Dredge hate, and blue hate. Me likey. How often do you find yourself successfully landing Choke against a blue deck?



All in all, very good list. I'm not sure if this is the direction all Rock decks should take, but I find it very interesting. We should all talk about this. Also, I've noticed that it basically seems like there's 3-4 people posting on this thread: myself, damion, AggroSteve, and some other guy. Weird....

-Matt

Congratz on the finish, damion!

I really like that list. Expecially Exploration/Crucible/Armageddon seem savage. I also dig Primal Command+Baneslayer tech against aggro.. should really bring your life up a notch..

So, what's with those Edicts? I personally still don't like them, but since they obviously did their job well for you, maybe you can tell us how useful it really is atm.

The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale. I like that one. Can you tell me, what this slot would be, if you had some kind of budgetary restraints (ie. we have only a couple of those in our coutry, so it's out of my reach). I kinda know it's not replaceable, so sad. :(

No recursion plan? Well, seems like you fear less that your opponent will bring GY hate in against you, since you only run Crucible as GY recursion. I found out that recursion tools are a tad slow atm and that sometimes those pieces just slow my hand so much and that they often have that "just in case" factor. And then they bring all that GY hate in against you and it starts to get nasty.

i have to say, the list previosly posted seems to me like a mixture of the rock and a terrageddon list i've recently seen, which played 3 crucibles 2 armageddon an 4 cataclysm, and as a lock piece solitary confinement with horizon canopy, i think that list was even posted in this thread

i have to say the exploration seems quite intresting, but the dissynergie with deed disturbs me, also (could be due to my playstyle) i think there should be more deeds, i just like deed ^^, but i don't know what to do with primal command, sure it gets you baneslayer, and occasionally helps otherwise as well, but i don't see it to be all that usefull

i like kor heaven, but i have to say that i miss stronghold, and tabernacle with armageddon is so freaking good^^


@ Matt
to my list now, thanks for the suggestions, i think we thought just the same way, i think targeted discard is the best, even though i have to say that cabal theraphy is quite funny, but occasionally as you said, to efficiantly hit something you've got to have luck or a creature to sac, and in a rockbuild without birds or hierarch as mine the theraphys are not effective enough
so i'll probably will be trying a 3/3 split as you suggested, which was also my thought of inquisition an sieze, anf further on to try out nightmare i'll do probably like this

3x shriekmaw (replacing my confidants)
4x kitchen finks
3x witness
2x recurring nightmare (replacing the in my eyes subpar nighthawks in my list)

like this my list will be quite more likely to be controllish with total of 6 tarteted discard and a total of 11 spot removals(including shriekmaw) and 3 deed

i also would be intrested in how you managed to consistantly beat goblins, as of lately i began to have troubles against them again, though i also haven't got any dedicated sideboardslot right now for this matchup, because it's become rare

Sure, I'll give you a matchup analysis/further decklists later today. Going to test some Legacy for SCG Open in Seattle :D

-Matt

Alright, it is later :D

The way to beat Goblins is simple, but effective. I'm assuming we're playing against mono red with Lackey, Instigator, Matron, Piledriver, Commander, Chieftain, Ringleader, Incinerator, and possibly Stingscourger. You have to keep a reasonable hand against the matchup: You need a turn 1 play. If going first, keep a hand with Thoughtseize/Inquisition, and a second turn play (hopefully Tarmogoyf). Even a hand with thoughtseize, with 2nd turn Hymn is great. Or, Swords. Usually, most Goblins players keep a hand with Lackey, and a decent number of goblins with 2 lands. If you can kill their first turn play, ie. Lackey, you can usually build up enough steam to control the board. Obviously, if you let a lackey drop a Siege Gang Commander, well, it's an uphill battle.

If they drop Vial first turn, you're in better shape, as you don't have to have a first turn Swords on the ready. You can drop a land and pass. They'll counter up, and drop a creature (Piledriver/Instigator). Depending on if you went second, hopefully you can either kill it, or put up a blocker. By the third turn, if they don't have to much on board, you've usually won. It's the first three turns that are critical in the game. If you heavily disrupt their gameplan by taking out Lackey/Piledriver/Instigator, they have more of an uphill battle. On third turn, you can drop Knight, Vindicate their Vial/creature/land, Pulse something. I would suggest laying the Deed on turn 3 unless they're building up steam on turn 3 (ex. Matron + Vial onboard). Here, you basically need to Deed to get rid of their Matron/other crap, but they'll usually Vial in reponse. Always try to bait out the Vial by discard, so you can hit whatever they put into play with some other spell.

I have lost games against Goblins before, don't get me wrong. It really depends on the hand you keep, and if they're hand is truly spicy or not. Most Goblins players can get there on an OK hand, so they wont necessarily mull into a ridiculous hand. In this matchup, you need a hand of at least 2 lands (hopefully 3-4, they play Wasteland, but I find most of the time they're mana hungry anyway), a turn one play (hoping for Swords, but targeted discard is swell as well) and hopefully a turn 2 play. If you can play something in each of the turns on the first three, you can usually stall their plan enough to land a fatty/backbreaker (example: Landing a Goyf, then an Arena. You can usually beat them with the amount of card advantage that you get.)

In the board against Gobbos, you need to side in Needles, and Engineered Plagues. What do you take out? Depending on the build, you can usually sacrifice something like Tombstalker, or something that's going to come out slow. I wouldn't board out Vindicates, but taking out a single Hymn, or a Deed isn't backbreaking. In the postboard games, they'll bring in Needle against Deed most likely, but there's not a ton else they can do. Here, you have to play with the same gameplan, and hopefully in the first half of the game land your Plague. If you can successfully keep a Lord off the table and land a Plague, you're basically golden as you can remove the Lords that they play. Then, you just wait to go into a second Plague, in which you win the game. Again, it's all about really shuffling well between games, taking out the stuff that's designed for the long haul, and hopefully opening up a hand that involves decent plays early game.

Hopefully this helped a bit when playing Goblins. I'd definitely say practice playing against them though, they're a good deck.

I'll try and come up with a Recurring Nightmare build today as a trial to help you out.

Any suggestions for me on the decklist I posted earlier? Any suggestions would be cool.

-Matt

well, i think cataclysm might be a better choice than armageddon and ravages, since most of the time you will have just one creature an be on the control part, plus you've got the explorations and crucibles, so a cataclysm will have only a small effect on you and you do not necessarily need tabernacle to clean the board, i think of this card as good against aggro and control, in your build specially against aggro as well if you land an early exploration, and against control its a backbreaking think thats for sure

i would probably play more horizon canopys, since its always a cantrip, and if you've got crucible out it just generates a lot of card advantage, its practicly a drawengine, allmost as effective as the one aggro loam builds have
in fact i'm still searching vor something likely for my rock build, and confidant is not the thing i want, neither i want to use crucibles, even if they are a wonderful card, and loam does not fit in either

well on paper it looks good, that aside i'm not sold on some choices, like only 2 deeds, the edicts over swords just disturbs me, primal command seams a little wierd, and i simply do not like baneslayer even if he's good

somehow i'm just to used to have at least 3 deeds and 3 witnesses, and my heart just cant take the thought of cutting any of them :P

After 2 days (went to the Nats Qualifier Yesterday) and a lot of time in front of my computer I finally got all the questions done. Here there are.

Umn... I'll start with the comments on your deck Matt :wink:

Those first few turns of the game are key. Not doing anything there can mean that your opponent is doing something without worry. I would suggest enough basics to cast your spells if there was a moon out as a general rule of thumb. That way, even if they do play wastelands, you can at least get the colors you need and not worry about them.

How's the Needle been in board. I found that it tended to be a bit slower against goblins than I actually wanted it to be. I know that the match is about making them operate at our speed but, when they have lackey and sometimes instigator, it seems pointless.

I would ask about the Leyline and Wheel but graveyard hate is the coin of the realm right now. I have 5 in my board so I understand. I'm a little skeptical on Wheel but you already have the the makings to slow them to turn 2.

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Ok, on to the questions and comments.

@ Matt’s

Ok, On to the monster list of questions (I'm gonna hit the questions from the both of you).

A) There are 2 creatures now in the format that Swords CAN'T hit. Those are Progenitus, and Emrakul. Those 2 are serious threats if they come in. Yes, Emrakul is more sensitive than Progenitus but, when there are only 2 ways to solve him (Active Knight and Karakas) you really want a bit more. An early of either of these can easily be the end of that game. So you have to weigh what the chances are either one is in your meta and judge if you want to have to race either of these (That's usually not a good idea).

Additionally, Goblins is the only match where swords counts as a turn 1 need. Fortunetly for us, while the deck is popular, it's only one deck. You will play it and, without swords, it garuntees that you're doing it the hard way but, Rock is used to that. Most of our matches are, "The hard way" so I didn't feel that the loyalty to Swords was really necessary. As much as we talk about the goblins 'God Draw', no deck can really stop that. Otherwise it wasn't the 'God Draw'.

Lastly, Most of legacy now is either creatureless, or plays at an almost fair speed for edict to be effective. Many times you are playing you are actually choosing what get's edicted just by playing it. There are some matches where you don't get that option (i.e. Goblins, Merfolk, Death and Taxes, *insert random aggro deck*) but you're still accomplishing the goal. You can clean up the rest with what I would hope is the one or so other creatures on your side.

B) I was wondering for a while about this but I had the same issue you had, "Where?" Eventually I realized that there are tons of times that I'm casting either one without the other. Sometimes, you just want to use the spell (BURN!!!!!!!!!!). They've actually been in the deck for a long time now, but the count has never changed (tested but not changed).

C) I chose Bob because he's only a single black. The ability to cast him early without the need of a dual to stay on color was key for me. In choosing him I also took his risks, and he has 18'd me in a game (Slayer, Slayer, Geddon, Geddon.. Older version had 2 slayers... I'll explain later). For majority of the games he's way more helpful than hurtful.

For the most part, the deck has 10 fetchable lands and you start with 20 life so the odds are still pretty good that you'll be OK. Mid-Game, if you don't have a top (Knight, Primal command), the probabilities are the against you already and you've done well to survive an Angry Bob and I hope you find that top soon (or just win the game with him, since they're not blocking).

D) I always look at deed when I'm revising the deck (Every time I play it). It's just too strong against random situations to cut. I've noticed that vs most matches they have perminents that cost a lot. Even merfolk decks are running a lot of lords that cost 3. So a majority of the time this is more of a kill switch than removal, but there are those golden moments. And, when you nail the lands player to turn off manabond, you get that warm feeling deep down inside :smile:

All in all, it's a 2 of because it's not that good anymore. It's really mana intense. There are enough times that the 'kill switch' is needed to warrant keeping it in.

Sidenote: First time playing reanimator I won game 1 (with swords main) by deeding Iona off the field.

E) I Wish I had an English one! I have a Chinese Ravages. Most local games I try to make things easier by just announcing it as Armageddon. I've only found one person have an issue with that but the judge sided with me. If I'm playing at Bigger events, I let them know as I cast it (You don't know how many decklists of mine have 3 Armageddon scratched out).

F) That's everyone's biggest question. After Round 8 my opponent asked if he could see my deck for ideas. When he saw the PC he handed it back and said, "I don't know if I can take anything you said seriously anymore now." I couldn't help but laugh. I had just won the match and he had an issue with a card choice that made it that serious!

Either way, Primal command is a relitivly new change to the deck (November of last year). It used to be a second Baneslayer. I decided to change it because it does everything a Baneslayer would do (Yes, even win games) at the same cost. Additionally, Command does other things a Baneslayer doesn't. It's really hard to explain why it's still there. One of those things that when it happens, you know why.

Examples would probably be better.

Aggro-Loam - Placed a land on top of their library and shuffled away all of their Loams... knight fetched a waste as well... He scooped. Terravore wasn't a match for a knight when I'm the only one with a graveyard.

Merfolk - Gained 7 life (8-15) and found Baneslayer (also meant Bob couldn't 5 me)... He took a couple turns but he got the picture.

Lands - Put Manabond on top of his deck and grabbed knight. Next turn cast knight and waste-locked him 2 turns later with double exploration crucible. Sidenote: This is the first time I played against or even heard of 43-lands! He called a judge on me game one when I Armageddon'd... Kinda convenient I had gone that route.

All in all, This card may seem silly, but it's insane when you cast it. The biggest thing is choosing the right time and modes. It's almost like a skill tester.:wink:

And Baneslayer isn’t the normal target. It’s knight. Sometimes Bob.

G) You do, and it has happened. I've fetched myself dry by turn 3 before. It's fun. It means that I can waste all the non-basics and work entirely off of an as-needed basis. Color's haven't really been an issue. My loss to the Merfolk player was because I couldn't find a land. So, Yes. The 10 count on Forest, Plains, and Swamps does hurt sometimes... Just no where near enough.

You also have the non-basics though. Horizon Canopy and Karakas both produce colors.

H) A LOT! Sometimes I just do it because I think it's funny (I'm sure they don't though). the crucible can come later, or not at all. Either way, it's OK.

I) I usually bait the counters out of there hand to cast something. There are so many situations that they can't have come up. Almost everything is the next big threat. Even the crucibles are issues for a lot of decks. It's more a question of, "What do you feel like landing today?"

I've lost 2 Chokes to the yard that weren't intended for the yard that I can recall. one, I had just thoughtseized and he had 2 lands left. Topdecked, Brainstormed, Forced.... Died to Knight + Goyf a couple turns later.

The second I kept drawing lands so I couldn't bait everything out. They landed a counterbalance and then got Waste-locked by the top-decked Crucible...

That took some time to answer.

@ Zalachan’s

Tabernacle does have an alternate. It’s in the deck acting as Deed 3. So if you don’t have access to it you can use a Deed in its place.

You are also correct as to there being no recursion (Primal Command makes sad face) but, there really isn’t as big a need for it as there used to be. We used to play it to try and force a creature past counters but now we can’t do that do to the amount of graveyard hate. So, I felt that there was no need to play something that wasn’t needed.

The slot for the Stronghold went to Kor Haven. And in all honesty, I haven’t looked back. The comparison to the utility of the 2 is easy enough to justify by just saying that your land is a blocking creature. All you need is 2 other lands.

The other fun thing is that without the stronghold, you can just play with their graveyard hate threatening you. It’s not very good when you’ll just get rid of it when it’s convenient. I got a warm fuzzy feeling inside every time someone took the Graveyard hate route and realized that it wasn’t a good idea.

@Steve’s

The dis-synergy between Deed and Exploration does exist, but it’s not as bad as it may seem. Yes, you blow deed, normally you lose your explorations, maybe some other stuff too. If you land (or landed) a crucible, every exploration left in the deck is ‘turned back on’. It’s better than birds in that sense.

I touched on Deed above in Matt’s Questions and made reference to it again as to being replaced by Tabernacle.

The land toolbox was changed a little bit just before the tournament. I used to have a Nomad Stadium in there, and I miss it SO MUCH. It wasn’t that it was the best against everything but when you got the deck ‘online,’ Gaining 8+life whenever you wanted was amazing recovery.

As far as changing for a second canopy, I would say tweak as needed. I’m not a fan of 2. I cut to one out of personal preference.

You’re right though, it’s a mix of decks. I still don’t consider it Rock but, everyone else does now so I’m stuck on that one. I still have never seen a list for Terrageddon though. I probably should since everyone has compared it to that as well but, I always though of this deck as a mix of Stax and Rock.

Right now I’m looking at it as leaving them with a land. The original reason for Armageddon was because it destroyed all their lands (didn’t worry about mine). That meant that they couldn’t top to counterbalance me. Using Cataclysm doesn’t accomplish that. In fact, they’re left with a chump Top, Counterbalance, A chump blocker, and the land to recover faster. Other decks may suffer more but not enough to play Cataclysm. That’s why Death and Taxes cut it.

For everyone who is thinking about playing this, I should warn you all that there is a running joke amongst my friends as I that everyone else will fail with this deck. It’s simply not usable for most people. To do everything you have to know and pay attention to the entire format and be able to adapt on the fly to some of the most awkward situations. It’s got many ‘Modes’ that you have to be able to find a way to shift into at the drop of a hat and change your own play-style on the fly to do. If you can pilot the deck successfully you’ll know what that means.

In the end, it’s super draining mentally. If you’re not seasoned I would suggest getting to know the format before you even attempt this beast.

Sorry Ian if I took away your will to type after I made you answer all those questions :tongue:

But, I've found Needle decent in the board. When I get, it's usually back breaking in the matchup, but sometimes, it's really sub-par. It's really good against Lands (Port, Maze,etc) so I can get in there, but you're right, it's slow against Goblins (naming Commander/Vial) or Folk (Mutavault/Vial/Coralhelm Commander). It's also quite good against Painter (it sees play here) + Counter-Top. I may cut it, but right now I'm still going along with it.

Any suggestions on the build, Ian? I'll try and work in some of the changes myself, and then we can compare what we each had in mind.

But, I'll post that Eternal Garden type build I've been playing for a few week to show you what I was talking about:

4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Horn of Greed
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
2 Armageddon
3 Intuition
1 Realms Uncharted
4 Mox Diamond
1 Life from the Loam

3 Terravore
4 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Maze of Ith
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bayou
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Diamond Valley
1 Tabernacle
2 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
1 Snow Covered Plains
1 Snow Covered Forest
1 Academy Ruins

Board: (rough)
Karakas
Bojuka Bog
Worm Harvest
Tormod's Crypt
Eternal Witness
Boseiju

As you can see, it's a mish-mash of Lands, New Horizons, and Eternal garden. It plays quite well. It's not Rock, but just pointing out the Crucible-Exploration theory is very good (obvious observation is obvious :tongue:)

I'm going to give my Rock list a bit or a rework for SCG Open: Seattle. I'll post hopefully tomorrow. If any of you are going, I'd love to meet up.

-Matt

Ill be posting my list after school, just no time to do it now :(

-Matt

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you Matt.

Your list looks a lot like lands but without some of the other land cards (manabond). Why not play the harvest main? It would see like it would be a good card for the intuition pile. Additionally you could run it over a Vore. We should probably post this in another forum though as it's clearly not what the admin's will call Rock.

* I would actually suggest Finks over Vore in your build. You have no hard removal and it would help against aggro, burn, and the sort.

I was just using the Lands deck as a point to show that we're on the same tangent with respect to Exploration/Crucible :smile:

The list for Rock, slightly tweaked.

4 Verdant catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog (or another Stronghold)
1 Karakas
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland

4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
1/0 Eternal witness

3 Exploration
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
3/4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Swords to Plowshares

I've got the 1/0 and the 3/4 as I'm not sure if I'll run Eternal Witness at one copy or not. I love the card to death, and it's a freaking tank at getting back removal, but not sure if one copy is enough to hold that slot. I've cut Deeds for Explorations, for the factor getting that extra speed boost in the early game so I can take control. Also, if they counter Exploration, it means they're not countering a Vindicate, Swords, etc.

Not sure about Baneslayer yet, as I haven't done a ton of testing. In the other deck, my creature CMC curve was quite a bit different, with Dorans and such. Now I've got more 5-drops, and I'm not sure how that'll work out if I don't successfully land an Exploration. I'll give this build a shot and see.

As you can see Ian, I've added more basics, but I've still kept a good number of duals. The deck is hungry, and I don't want to play Exploration, then run out of stuff to play. If you guys also want to proxy the deck up, I'd be interested in seeing how you guys are finding it. I might play your list at this Thursday's local Legacy event Ian, if that's alright with you.

-Matt

Edit:

I've done a bit of testing with my list. If Exploration is played early, and you get some card draw going, the deck is freaking ridiculous. But, even without it, it still comes back to being a good list. More testing needed, but so far, me likey :smile:

Sorry for the delay, Work's been a little more demanding than normal.

I like the list. Exploration is always fun but, like you said, You need the draw (to abuse it). To be honest, in your build I would replace them with hierarch or Birds (your choice). The numbers would leave it off enough to not be drawn that often but at the same time show up enough.

I've never been sold on Stalker though. At least with Goyf you could still count on their yard for anything you left but,resetting your Knight seems like a bad idea.

I still LOVE Witness! I keep trying to find her a home in my build but I never liked seeing her when she was there (There was the build with Lilliana that I liked her in...) She seems better suited for your build where her recursion can actually be used to benefit you in a very more direct way. I would bring her up to at least a 2 of in your list. I was testing it a bit and it seemed like there was always an option to deal with an issue in your build.

I was going to ask how creature based your meta is but I also remembered it being filled with them in one of your earlier posts so I understand all the removal. How are your control matches going?

Better question, How're you doing against Reanimator? It's popularity is growing...

I'm not saying I cry myself to sleep after I play Reanimator, but it's pretty hard. They can just choose Inkwell, if they know the deck, and go to town. Leyline will obviously help, and I have many different kinds of removal. I have yet to do my usual rigorous testing (30 games preboard, 30 games post).

I was thinking about cutting Stalker. In this build, he seems clunky now, and Baneslayer seems to get there better. Plus, E. Wit can go back in. Huzzah!

What did you mean about when you played it "there was an option to deal with an issue". Not sure if you mean it had a ton of different stuff to kill different crap, or you found issues in the deck that are annoying you and need to be solved. Could be I'm just dead tired, and reading comprehension is minimal at this point.

I'll definitely do a bit more tweaking tonight.

-Matt

Was making reference to Witness being able to get back something relevant when it was played. I have only been able to test online but it seems like you have a solid build.

Leyline would be a great addition to your board but you'll have to be able to solve bounce. It's one of those things that's fun to deal with. What decks are you having issues with?