[Deck] Non-LED Based Dredge/Ichorid Combo

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Originally Posted by sunshine

As for Eternal Witness in the Sage (now Sphinx) slot: Witness's stock rises and falls depending on your sideboard. Currently, a single Witness is my only "pure" Dread Return target. However, I think you could make a strong argument for not playing Witness at all if your sideboard did not contain any cards that need to be played from your hand.

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I have tried both Sage and Witness and I'm not going to run either now. I do agree with Sunshine though that the inclusion of Witness depends on your sideboard as in game 1 you'll often use it as a (worse) Sage (i.e. returning a breakthrough or coliseum) but in game 2 it can be useful to return a firestorm or another SB card.

I do like to run 3 Dread Returns and 2 targets for it.
The biggest advantage of Dread Return is imo that it easily gets you a lot of Zombies. Therefore I think that your DR-target should be something that limits your opponents' resources to deal with your horde of zombies. FKZ does this by limiting your opponent resources to the cards in his hand and limits his time to having to deal with your zombies at instant speed. Hypnotist limits your opponent to the top 2 or 3 cards of his library.
It is therefore I'm now trying Iona as my second DR-target (next to FKZ) because it also limits your opponents resources (I have tried Hypnotist but I'm not convinced (yet)).

I really like Ancestor's Chosen but I wouldn't play it in the main because it doesn't cut off any resources. In game 2 or 3 we often need to slow dredge and this is where Chosen is excellent so I'll keep him in the side.

I believe Parcher had a fairly detail list of the pros/cons of Witness vs. Sage in the old LED Ichorid thread. Might be worth your while to take a look at that.

I wouldn't run Iona at all, I don't like her.

For 2 targets i'd run Sphinx + Hypnotist/Fkz

With 3DR chances are you will see it quite earlie, so Sphinx is a lot stronger here.

Even if you don't hit you 2nd target of it, chances are you will see SOMETHING

How often do you usually get your first DR target online? If it's after turn 3 or so Hypnotist is not really worth the slot. I think he's better off in the LED versions, at least that's what my testing has shown. It's pretty cool to wipe out your opponents hand, but by that point you should have taken everything relevant with Therapys anyway.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

Depends on how many slots they have and what they expect to face. Wispmare is much much better at fighting Leyline, and Ray of Revelation is much much better at fighting other stuff.

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I actually think wispmare is almost strictly better than ray of revelation; wispmare kills ghostly prison by DR'ing it to play or by just evoking it. And you usually don't use ray of revelation twice.

Using ancestor's chosen main is foolhardy; you should autowin game 1 unless it's some stompy deck that locks you out or they land 3sphere or they land ghostly prison. Game 1 should be easy. Although in games 2 and three, that goyf can deal you lethal if you don't hit what you need to combo out so I agree with ancestor's chosen there since you gain a shit ton of life to essentially buy a few turns while you slow dredge.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

I actually think wispmare is almost strictly better than ray of revelation; wispmare kills ghostly prison by DR'ing it to play or by just evoking it. And you usually don't use ray of revelation twice.

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Dread Returning Wispmare seems so loose. If you have to, you have to, but I'd rather build my deck in a way that I don't have to.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

Using ancestor's chosen main is foolhardy; you should autowin game 1 unless it's some stompy deck that locks you out or they land 3sphere or they land ghostly prison. Game 1 should be easy. Although in games 2 and three, that goyf can deal you lethal if you don't hit what you need to combo out so I agree with ancestor's chosen there since you gain a shit ton of life to essentially buy a few turns while you slow dredge.

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Well, I wouldn't run it in the main because I think you win game1 against almost everybody. (I am considering SBing Woodfall Primus for Stax-heavy metagames, but that's neither here nor there). The theory is that Flame-kin Zealot is only really good in the maindeck if there's a lot of combo you need to race, and I think Ancestor's Chosen might be as good at letting you beat those decks as FKZ. Then you've saved a sideboard slot.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

I actually think wispmare is almost strictly better than ray of revelation; wispmare kills ghostly prison by DR'ing it to play or by just evoking it. And you usually don't use ray of revelation twice.

Using ancestor's chosen main is foolhardy; you should autowin game 1 unless it's some stompy deck that locks you out or they land 3sphere or they land ghostly prison. Game 1 should be easy. Although in games 2 and three, that goyf can deal you lethal if you don't hit what you need to combo out so I agree with ancestor's chosen there since you gain a shit ton of life to essentially buy a few turns while you slow dredge.

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I can't say I agree with either of these statements 100%. Wispmare is definitely the more versatile card for this deck but relying on DR resolving to remove a problem enchantment is not the way to go. Also, with Witness, reaching two mana is very doable by the mid game.

As far as playing Chosen main, Zoo decks and even Tempo thresh can race us if they get quick beats (possibly countering our relevant early game stuff) and follow up with burn. I would say that if there was ever a correct time to play Chosen in the main deck it would be now - especially if you anticipate combo to gain in popularity as people take advantage of all the aggro running around.

Hi all,

Awhile back I was playing LEDless Ichorid, I went to LED (didnt like it), and now I'm back.

I'm entering State Champs (VIC, Australia) this Sunday and wanted advice on SB..

Which decks would you side Leyline in against (assuming you fit it in the SB)?

I'm thinking +4 Leyline for 43 Lands, Tempo Thresh, Enchantress, Tombstalker.dec, Dredge Mirror. What about Merfolk or Goblins?

Edit: I understand a lot of ppl don't run Leyline anymore, but just in a vacuum, which decks is it best against?

I like it against Goblins, because in many ways their only outs are to blow up their own guys to stop your bridges.

I like it against 43land and possibly Aggro Loam.

With this deck you can't just blindly make a sideboarding guide and stick to it. You have to adapt based on what hate you think they're bringing in. For example, if Zoo boarded no cards, I might bring in Leyline, but otherwise I'd bring in my Chain of Vapors.

I don't think I want Leyline against Tombstalker.dec, Tempo Thresh or Merfolk. I don't know versus Enchantress, but I'm pretty sure I'd rather have my bounce to remove Moat or Elephant Grass or whatever. But I SB Serenity, so...

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Originally Posted by AcidFiend

Hi all,

Awhile back I was playing LEDless Ichorid, I went to LED (didnt like it), and now I'm back.

I'm entering State Champs (VIC, Australia) this Sunday and wanted advice on SB..

Which decks would you side Leyline in against (assuming you fit it in the SB)?

I'm thinking +4 Leyline for 43 Lands, Tempo Thresh, Enchantress, Tombstalker.dec, Dredge Mirror. What about Merfolk or Goblins?

Edit: I understand a lot of ppl don't run Leyline anymore, but just in a vacuum, which decks is it best against?

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Mind sharing the rest of your board? I would bring in Leyline against very few matchups right now - especially if I have Firestorm available, but I'm assuming that you're not running Firestorm in your board.

What about River Kelpie in Sages/Sphinx spot?
sb ever tried?

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Originally Posted by Anusien

I like it against Goblins, because in many ways their only outs are to blow up their own guys to stop your bridges.

I like it against 43land and possibly Aggro Loam.

With this deck you can't just blindly make a sideboarding guide and stick to it. You have to adapt based on what hate you think they're bringing in. For example, if Zoo boarded no cards, I might bring in Leyline, but otherwise I'd bring in my Chain of Vapors.

I don't think I want Leyline against Tombstalker.dec, Tempo Thresh or Merfolk. I don't know versus Enchantress, but I'm pretty sure I'd rather have my bounce to remove Moat or Elephant Grass or whatever. But I SB Serenity, so...

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For what it's worth, my sideboard:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Serenity
2 Ancestor's Chosen/Sphinx of the Steel Wind/other DR targets (still playing around here)
1 Ray of Revelation (so Moat doesn't wreck me)

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Originally Posted by sunshine

I disagree with this, but to be fair I think I choose to go the DDD route more often than most. Even with an outlet and the mana to play it I will often opt not to (generally this is only on the draw, and we're assuming an opponent that is unknown or representing blue). Especially with the LED-less versions it is often the case that you won't be dredging more than once per turn for a while anyway. DDD gets there a lot more often than having your only discard outlet countered does.

As for Eternal Witness in the Sage (now Sphinx) slot: Witness's stock rises and falls depending on your sideboard. Currently, a single Witness is my only "pure" Dread Return target. However, I think you could make a strong argument for not playing Witness at all if your sideboard did not contain any cards that need to be played from your hand.

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What does DDD mean?

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

What does DDD mean?

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Draw, Discard, Dredge. This can sometimes be good on the draw.

I'd like to start a discussion on DDD. I'm pretty sure it's miserable, and I don't know why you people keep talking about it in reports.

I guess it's okay when you can follow with land, Careful Study. But if you don't have a discard outlet, DDD just seems way too slow. Even in that situation, if you don't dredge into another discard outlet, you're going to lose.

I think most of the time 1 resolve a DR turn 2-4. Sometimes later if its g2 or 3.
But it doesn't matter that much, after you get back Hypnotist even a few Tokens can usually handle the situation since your opponent is in topdeck-mode. If i raped his Hand already i just take Troll and finish the job next round.

Whispmare is imo the better choice, since it handles Leyline, which is about the most troublesome ench for us. It takes care of the others as well, given that we can most likely handle them anyways.

DDD is good postboard, where you wanna keep a full grip so a single Crypt does not wreck you. Its especially good against decks that don't have a fast clock, but with a little luck chances are it is good enough so every deck has to blow the Crypt at some point.

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Originally Posted by sunshine

Mind sharing the rest of your board? I would bring in Leyline against very few matchups right now - especially if I have Firestorm available, but I'm assuming that you're not running Firestorm in your board.

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4 Ancient Grudge
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Wispmare
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sadistic Hypnotist

I have 3 Thoughtseize (replaced Careful Study) & 3 Tribe MD. Not sure if I need 4th Tribe in board instead of Hypno. I also have Ancestor's Chosen MD in place of FKZ. For aggro and combo decks, Ancestor acts in a similar way, giving you space to outrace them. The only place its worse is where that extra turn lets them lock you out (Enchantress) or sweep your board. I'm hoping that doesn't prove too common. The other thing is when you don't have many creatures on the board, FKZ is useless, but AC is still useful. AC can also offset lifeloss from Thoughtseize/Tarnished Citadel. It then saves a sideboard slot.

I don't own any Firestorm, so I'm not running it. If I was, I'd run Eternal Witness so it wasn't useless in my grave - IMO they go together or not at all. This is the same for CoV - I'm not running Eternal, thus its only good in my first hand. Since I was usually wanting to pack Grudge or Leyline first, I found it hard to board in CoV as cards 5-7. Thus I dropped it altogether. Blasphemy I know.

Firstly my meta consists of: a few Counterbalance, Enchantress, EvaGreen/Death &Taxes, Merfolk, Dredge, Stax, Affinity, Zoo, Goblins, maybe ANT

This was my basic SB plan:
Counterbalance: +4 Ancient Grudge, +1 Thoughtseize, -4 Breakthrough, -1 Ancestor
Enchantress: +2 Wispmare, +1 Woodfall Primus, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Sadistic Hypnotist, -4 Tribe, -1 Ancestor's Chosen
Black decks: +2 Wispare (fear of Planar Void), +1 Woodfall Primus, -3 Breakthrough
Merfolk: +4 Ancient Grudge, -4 Breakthrough
Dredge: +4 Leyline, -4 Breakthrough
Stax: +4 Ancient Grudge, +2 Ingot Chewer, +1 Woodfall Primus, -4 Breakthrough, -1 Sphinx, -1 Ancestor, -1 Thug
Affinity: +4 Ancient Grudge, +2 Ingot Chewer, -4 Breakthrough, -2 Thoughtseize
Zoo: <nothing> / +4 Leyline, -4 Breakthrough
Goblins: <nothing> / +4 Leyline, -4 Breakthrough
ANT: +4 Ancient Grudge, +1 Sadistic Hypnotist, +1 Thoughtseize, -3 Breakthrough, -3 Tribe

Any feedback welcome :)

Richard Feldman took Dread Return out against Counterbalance on the theory that they can't beat recurring Ichorids.

I think just taking out Breakthrough for hate is the wrong option. I prefer to take out a weird mix of things; it may not be right, but Breakthrough is one of the best ways to recover from a Crypt.

It seems weird, but I've grown to like Chain instead of Grudge because it's easier to adapt to whatever hate they have. You're really weak if they just happen to have a mix of Crypt, Relic, Leyline, Planar Void, Jailer post-board.

I had Woodfall Primus before. How was it for you? I was unimpressed with it.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

Richard Feldman took Dread Return out against Counterbalance on the theory that they can't beat recurring Ichorids.

I think just taking out Breakthrough for hate is the wrong option. I prefer to take out a weird mix of things; it may not be right, but Breakthrough is one of the best ways to recover from a Crypt.

It seems weird, but I've grown to like Chain instead of Grudge because it's easier to adapt to whatever hate they have. You're really weak if they just happen to have a mix of Crypt, Relic, Leyline, Planar Void, Jailer post-board.

I had Woodfall Primus before. How was it for you? I was unimpressed with it.

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@ DR -> if you have Sphinx/Witness to continue producing zombies/dredging, it can be good, but perhaps its no longer required.

@ CoV -> I may still put it back in, I'm just questioning its auto-include at this stage. In the slower matches you have to grind out, I don't see CoV working as well as they can replay it. If it allows you to generate enough threats in the one turn then its obviously great.

@ Breakthrough -> I'm running four, so I suppose I could cut something like -1 BT, -1 Thug, -1 DR, -1 <animate target> instead. I didn't really consider holding BT till after you dealt with hate.

@ Woodfall -> This may be better off as a 2nd Hypnotist, just to increase the chances of seeing one in the matchups I side him in. Since I don't have room for another 3-4 set of something, its really just filler. I know Empirical Archangel isn't seeing much love but that is a card I've used previously and liked, though it borders on 'good stuff', some decks just can't deal with her.

I think that you just don't need any Dread Return targets at all. GGT is fat enough to serve as a DR target and doesn't eat any spots. I found all those neat creatures like Witness, Sage, FZK /to a lesser degree) and Woodfall Primus to be useless utility that takes away a lot of consistency from this deck. Postboard some of them may be needed for special matchups, for example Chosen seems to be worth his slot and Woodfall Primus is also quite good if there is a lot of Stax / Enchantress in your metagame.

My maindeck is running very smoothly without DR targets and while they are for sure cool and nice to have sometimes they are win-more most of the time and hardly win any games you would otherwise have lost.