[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

Actually, my question was serious. I don't think Norwood Priestess is good, and I really don't think the reduction of the cost by 1 mana makes her better. Is Natural Order good - yes. I don't see how you can argue with that.

When you have an active survival, a creature (that isn't Progenitus) in hand, Anger in the yard, and 5 green mana up, Norwood Priestess is as good as Natural Order. My point is, that's still not really that awesome. You could just as easily Survival the Progenitus and the other creature, and put something into play (that isn't taking up a slot in your deck) that would also win the game.

I like the idea, Eric, but I think your Natural Order comments are a little off. Most lists run around 28-34 green creatures, many of which aren't very useful by themselves. Having Natural Order Force of Will'd isn't nearly as bad for TEES as it is for, say, CounterTop lists where you often have to sacrifice a Tarmogoyf or Rhox War Monk. Losing an elf token, Llanowar Elves, or Quirion Ranger is insignificant compared with the upside of Natural Order resolving.

Against decks with heavy countermagic, it's best to force them to spend countermagic on your lords and Messengers and Natural Order them late when they're out.

Personally, I cut Survival from my list and I haven't missed it. Without Survival, the deck plays like Goblins with less busted openings, but with a much more explosive mid game and the ability to steal games with Natural Order. TEE(S) is also much more resistant to sweepers if you sideboard correctly.

The deck is an excellent strategy in metagames with lots of Goblins, Merfolk, and CounterTop, as it has favorable matchups against all three while being solid against Landstill, and not terrible against Zoo. It also doesn't lose to random jank, unlike a lot of Legacy lists. The only problem is that combo tends to bend it over.

Norwood Preistess seems like a decent idea if you're running Survival, but she is very Anger dependant, which could be bad. I dunno, I can't test it since I don't run Survival anymore.

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Originally Posted by Media314r8

I've been testing Elf Survival, with a similar list, but without NO, with 18 land, and 1 Norwood Priestess. The priestess has been working out really well for me as my 'win now' should I set up survival, and sometimes an 'oops, I win' if I happen to draw progenitus and messenger into her. Has anyone else tested her at all in addition to/instead of 1 NO, as aside from survival, you have no way to discard the 1-of progenitus? (and if you have survival up and running, she costs the same amount of mana (2GGG) as having to pitch master P to survival and then NO.) I'm not a fan of the extra slots NO takes (or the beating it is to have it countered), but enjoy the two slots that allow for a fast win through a ghostly prison, ect.

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So... no. You haven't tested it, you're just posting your opinions without testing. Please go slander the N&D forums and crush Dream Halls' dreams. I've tested with, without, and played against NO, and I'm suggesting people TRY 1 priestess in place of the fourth NO, or place of the NOs in lists who want to run more lands to play SB genesis and have a better manabase, and increased consistency at the cost of occasional NO wins.

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just asking that a mod of all people TEST an idea rather than attack it without basis, especially when I say that I've been playing it with success and ask if anyone else has tsted it, not if someone feels like attacking my suggestion without testing it.

Natural order is one the best cards in this deck, I think i win about 65-70% of my matches just baiting counterspells into order. I can see why priestess looks decent but what if you have no survival or you just draw it by itself its kind of subpar. also order can be used to get other guys like symbiote if you needed it to combo out.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

I like the idea, Eric, but I think your Natural Order comments are a little off. Most lists run around 28-34 green creatures, many of which aren't very useful by themselves. Having Natural Order Force of Will'd isn't nearly as bad for TEES as it is for, say, CounterTop lists where you often have to sacrifice a Tarmogoyf or Rhox War Monk. Losing an elf token, Llanowar Elves, or Quirion Ranger is insignificant compared with the upside of Natural Order resolving.

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I'm not saying that NO is bad, or that having it countered is nearly as devastating as it is in NO thresh, but that opening a hand with some mana guys, a lord, and NO looks really attractive, but is very mediocre if the NO is countered. With that hand and priestess, you are likely mulling, and priestess is only a 1-of, so it happens much less frequently. I run priestess as I feel SotF is the strongest card in the deck against a varied meta, and I prefer the increased consistancy to the raw power of NO. I hate having progenitus as a dead card in hand, and having your NOs be terribad creature crop rotations. (which usually fetch lords or messangers, but it's obviously still awkward to draw your only P and then the accompanying NO) I think running NO encourages 'bad keeps,' but understand that it can be better than survival in metas with a lot of MD/SB gy-hate, or with few counterspells. I do think that Priestess deserves at least one slot over or in addition to the fourth NO in lists running both NO and SotF, as she is effectively a tutorable NO in that deck that can be fetched should you want a fast progenitus or should you draw him and not want to trade him and a mana for a lord.

EDIT: This is why threads aren't posted on, and stagnate. I've been watching/reading this thread over the past week, and there have been perhaps one page of posts on SB slots and 'budget' color splashes or replacements, but within twenty minutes of a new idea being suggested, I have three people telling me I'm wrong without testing. Seriously people, decks don't become DTBs/DTWs by threads idling while the lurkers shoo away people with responses like "We know tarmogoyf isn't going to be as good as werebear. Werebear has been working for years with success, and thus a change isn't even worth testing."

I'm not saying by any means that priestess is the next tarmogoyf, but that innovation is never wrong, rather that it should be explored before being dismissed or accepted. I may be wrong, and with more testing, decide to go back to 3 or 4 NOs, but I came to this thread, reading, lurking, then posting, to see if I could save myself time by gleaning anyone else's testing results with priestess. If I wanted to have my ideas made fun of and dismissed immediately, I would post on salvation or wizards boards. We are supposed to be the innovators and backbone of the legacy community. I feel like fucking Cavious here, and I promise a 1-of priestess in place of NO in lists running NO and SotF is not anywhere near as outrageous as NourishingLich.dec.

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Originally Posted by Media314r8

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just asking that a mod of all people TEST an idea rather than attack it without basis, especially when I say that I've been playing it with success and ask if anyone else has tsted it, not if someone feels like attacking my suggestion without testing it.

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First of all, being a mod has nothing to do with it, unless I'm writing in red text, or editing a post. Consider the mod hat taken off for now, and pretend I'm posting as a Magic: the Gathering player, who happens to have some baseline of experience with and intuition for the format.

Second, I'm not saying you shouldn't play Norwood Priestess. If you think it's contributing to your win percentage, by all means, play it. It may even be the nuts. I'm merely making you ask yourself this question:

If Priestess did not exist (or if Portal was not legal in Legacy), would you consider running Elvish Piper? I think, if you're honest with yourself, the answer to that question would be no. Once you reach that conclusion, ask yourself if knocking 1 colorless mana off the CMC of the card would make you run it. The answer could be yes. I'm skeptical, that's all.

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Originally Posted by Nightmare

If Priestess did not exist (or if Portal was not legal in Legacy), would you consider running Elvish Piper? I think, if you're honest with yourself, the answer to that question would be no. Once you reach that conclusion, ask yourself if knocking 1 colorless mana off the CMC of the card would make you run it. The answer could be yes. I'm skeptical, that's all.

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I apologize if I offended you. I understand your skepticism, but understand that there were combo players (TES/doomsday or it's predecessors) that were skeptical of Grim tutor, as at first glance, it's just a mana cheaper than diabolic tutor, and costs 3 life to boot. 1 mana can make a huge difference in a card's playability. I'm not saying it's better than NO, but offering it up for testing should others not have tried it. I've had success with it and been happy with it, as it is only slightly disappointing to draw, as without it, big P is abysmal to draw. At least priestess can 'cheat in' messengers and dudes drawn with them.

Is grim tutor in those decks now?

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Is grim tutor in those decks now?

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Originally Posted by Media314r8

(TES/doomsday or it's predecessors) that were skeptical of Grim tutor

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It's not played in ANT or modern doomsday, but it was played and it was certainly justified, where diabolic tutor would have been garbage. Thanks for the witty quip, as it pertains to this discussion. Grim tutor was played, and it relates to my comparison in that the difference between grim tutor and diabolic tutor is the difference between a $80 card and an unplayable card. One mana. It does make a big difference, ala the difference between norwood priestess and elvish piper - one mana. (and a negligible drawback, as playing a progenitus at instant speed is irrel, as you want to be attacking with it immediately via anger)

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Originally Posted by Media314r8

It's not played in ANT or modern doomsday, but it was played and it was certainly justified, where diabolic tutor would have been garbage. Thanks for the witty quip, as it pertains to this discussion. Grim tutor was played, and it relates to my comparison in that the difference between grim tutor and diabolic tutor is the difference between a $80 card and an unplayable card. One mana. It does make a big difference, ala the difference between norwood priestess and elvish piper - one mana. (and a negligible drawback, as playing a progenitus at instant speed is irrel, as you want to be attacking with it immediately via anger)

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What I was saying was that one mana in the end doesn't matter. Either way the card shouldn't make the cut.

Hi guys, i have started to test Di's latest build of this deck and i'm asking if somebody could give some advices for sideboarding. Example, do you side out elvish champions out against decks what don't play green? Thanks!

Been a while guys... But I've been playtesting my Elfdeck a long time now. This is the decklist I've been testing so far:

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4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
4 Forest

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Progenitus

4 Natural Order
4 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
3 Planar Void
3 Absolute Law
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Woodfall Primus

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I've been testing against a wide range of decks such as ANT, TEES, Ichorid/Dredge, different tribaldecks, Thresh, Aggro Loam, Staxx decks, stompy, Stasis (lol), Deadguy decks, Eva Green, UB Reanimators etc.
Practically the whole shibang of decks, and my conclusion from my playtesting is pretty good.
The card(s) I've been most unsatisfied with are actually the Cabal Therapies, ofc, you hit with them once in a while, but more than often it's rather disappointing.
I feel that I would much rather have played 4 maindecked Relic of Progenitus to have a chance at battleing all graveyard decks that's running around. With the increasing popularity of UB Reanimators, Ichorid/dreadge and the fact that nearly every deck splashes for goyf would justify the inclusion of the common artifact.
Even if it wouldn't have no effect in the current matchup, it will net me a card for the cost of my and my opponents graveyard. Almost like cycling.

The combo matchups are still a pain in the ass unless you get the nuts draw with a fast clock. But even with a nuts draw, you can easily lose the game after you play a land and a elf. Mulling into a cabal therapy against those matchups won't even net you a win since you more than often have to blind therapy.

In my opinion the flexslots in my list atm would be the cabal's and the Packmaster. Packmaster has proven to be quite good. Mainly due to the fat body and the option to make a wolf every now and then for 2G.

I'll be testing the 4 Relic of Progenitus maindeck and see how good they actually are and the Packmaster will stay in until I see anything else worth playing in that slot.

Are you sure this is the right thread? This thread discusses a combo-flavored Survival-based Elf deck. You seem to have an aggro-flavored Elf deck with NOgenitus thrown in.

Keep up with the times Kirby!

While the thread does retain that title, the originator of the thread has dropped Survival from his list.

Di now runs a list similar to the one quoted by Hawdes

Whoops, I didn't realize that. First post update, please! =)

I'm playing some sort of updated list now with both Survival and NO.

Survival is still worth it IMO. It allows you to win matches you have no business winning and allows you to pack in some singletons like the Pack Master that allows you to create massive walls of little doggies that can halt assaults by similiar decks (Goblins?), not to mention these little bastards have Deathtouch.

I've been playing with a 1-of Wellwisher in my MD and it works wonders for certain matchups. Survival needs some time (2 turns or so) and a Wellwisher can buy you that time.
As I play Thorn of Amethyst in my SB, that Wellwisher also improves my combo matchup - kinda. I could always slow them down enough to either draw my Wellwisher or tutor for him - the lifegain was backbreaking.

I dunno whether adding B and ditching R altogether with Survival might be the way to go.
I think including the Survival makes your Aggromatchup way better, while B (read: Discard) improves the combo matchup. Sounds like a metacall.


Really, this deck is a blast to play. I'm thinking hard of buying it when I get my next salary.

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Originally Posted by Nidd

I'm playing some sort of updated list now with both Survival and NO.

Survival is still worth it IMO. It allows you to win matches you have no business winning and allows you to pack in some singletons like the Pack Master that allows you to create massive walls of little doggies that can halt assaults by similiar decks (Goblins?), not to mention these little bastards have Deathtouch.

I've been playing with a 1-of Wellwisher in my MD and it works wonders for certain matchups. Survival needs some time (2 turns or so) and a Wellwisher can buy you that time.
As I play Thorn of Amethyst in my SB, that Wellwisher also improves my combo matchup - kinda. I could always slow them down enough to either draw my Wellwisher or tutor for him - the lifegain was backbreaking.

I dunno whether adding B and ditching R altogether with Survival might be the way to go.
I think including the Survival makes your Aggromatchup way better, while B (read: Discard) improves the combo matchup. Sounds like a metacall.


Really, this deck is a blast to play. I'm thinking hard of buying it when I get my next salary.

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In my experience, SotF felt slow. I previously piloted different types of SotF decks and I've always felt that it was 1 or 2 turns to slow to seal the deal, and ofc it's pretty mana hungry. It would ofc be a little faster in a deck packed with elves, but then again, there aren't many elves that in my opinion justifies the inclusion of SotF.
Playing SotF implies that you will run a bunch of silver bullets that will get you out of certain situations or go for the win. Most of the time, it's the first. There are no really good silver bullet elves that can compete in Legacy atm, more than maybe a hand full.

Personally I feel more explosive running the non SotF build even though it has it's pros and cons.
I favor the fast and aggressive playstyle more than to be the reactive one, and the fact that 50% of the decks I'm going up against in my meta involves some sort of thresh/counter/crapness which tends to put the SotF build back hard.
It doesn't hurt the aggressive elf build as much since you drop threat after threat. If they waste their counters on the little pointy-eared men, then they will feel the beat from a NO into Progenitus. If they're holding back counters for NO, then the elves and lords slip through.

That's just my personal opinion. It all comes down to play style and personal references and of course what meta you're in.
Tribal decks tend to have low win percentage against combo decks so packing hate against those decks seem to be a waste of slots.
I've been play testing a series of games against ANT and the only thing you actually can do is to hope that the don't have the nuts draw, hit with a blind therapy on their mana sources/tutors or have a nuts draw yourself and net some of their life before they go bananas.

Either way, I'm feeling more comfortable playing blue decks now that survival's out of the picture in my decklist. It more than often didn't go online and resultet in them timewalking me when they counter it. (Read FoW and Spell Snare). Playing around Daze is easy, but the rest... It's hard to even get it through imo.

Well, the way I see it, SotF allows you to play an aggro deck with the possibility to go for a combo finish.

Elves allows you to tutor up Anger on T2, then on T3 tutor a Priest of Titania, Sylvan Messengers and then just start chaining Priests, grab Symbiotes to bounce Messengers and untap your manadorks and finally overwhelm your enemy with a bunch of hasted Elves.

Against Blue decks, you can board this strategy out and pack in some more meat.

I can't really tell whether Survival is win-more or if it really makes me win games I would normally lose.
I mean, it even enables you to recharge by tutoring Messengers after a sweeper - if one lands.

Also, it's extremely annoying to only have Natural Order, draw that Progenitus and then have no way to get him back into my library again.

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Originally Posted by Nidd

Also, it's extremely annoying to only have Natural Order, draw that Progenitus and then have no way to get him back into my library again.

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That's also why Cabal Therapy was played maindeck I think, to give you a way to get rid of danger cards that could hurt you in a perticular matchup and in extreme cases you could Cabal yourself and ditch Progenitus.

In my list, I actually have two NO targets, as in Packmaster and Progenitus.
Progenitus isn't actually a must play card, it just fastens up the clock. In the board I have an added NO target in Woodfall Primus aswell (pretty good against cards like glacial chasm etc.).

Even though you could self-target yourself with the cabals, I hardly ever kept a hand with Progenitus in it unless you have a really good curve. It's practically a mull hand, so if it's not that good you would probably be better in mulling and ensure that Progenitus will be back in the lib.
Although I don't play Cabal Therapy main or sideboard anymore... So the Proghands will become mulls anyway. I think that Relic of Progenitus offers more against other decks, and it draws you a card even if it doesn't have an effect inte the matchup.
Since we don't play goyfs in the Elf list, it still helps against those big goyf-bodies. We hardly ever have anything else in our graveyard except creatures, lands and maybe sorceries. Which won't fuel the goyfs that much.

I just want to report my testing results with Relic of Progenitus in MD.
It turend out to be a very nice addition to the "from time to time" useful Cabal Therapies.
It has such a huge impact on the matchups that tend to loop boardsweepers or barbarian rings with Loam engine, and isn't it just fun to force Tarmogoyf to stay home against your Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves? :cool:

I must say that I enjoy having the backup Planar Voids in the SB aswell. Matchups like Ichorid, Reanimator and other graveyard decks just doesn't see Planar Void coming.
They often expect Leyline and Relic, but a hoser like Planar Void forces Ichorid to bounce it one turn and go all in, instead of bouncing a Leyline, which often results in a few turns until it's replayed (due to the BB cost and a cmc of 4).
There have been games where I mulled down to a five card hand just to be able to drop Planar Void T1 (post board against GY decks and if I don't get a good/decent hand at 6 or 7.), and it has been nothing but positive, buying me time against Ichorid and Loam engines.

Maindeck Relic of Progenitus has also been great in some Gobbos matchups, when hit on the right target (read recurring Gempalm incinerators).

My list is where I want it at the moment.

I've cut a bayou maindeck to add the fourth Wasteland, since the requirement for black isn't as needed now as before with 4 maindecked Cabal Therapy.

Wasteland wins you some matchups that you shouldn't be able to win, due to color screw since everyone runs those tight manabases.