I play 20, because I like to have a lategame plan if things fall apart. For me, this manifests itself in 4 figure of destiny, 2 Cursed scroll. Both of these work best with a fair amount of lands, so I use 20. 0 of them are Horizon Canopy.
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I play 20, because I like to have a lategame plan if things fall apart. For me, this manifests itself in 4 figure of destiny, 2 Cursed scroll. Both of these work best with a fair amount of lands, so I use 20. 0 of them are Horizon Canopy.
With Horizon Canopy I think as long as you keep the fetch count high to hit whatever land you need to pump guys as often as possible I think a 2-of is ok.
20-21 Lands is to help keep up with wastelands and stifles, because in 3-color zoo just getting wasteland-ed once or twice or losing a turn or two of aggression can lose you the game. Also if you want to jam basics in there (avoid moon effects and total wasteland/price of progress blowout) 20-21 is the number that comes out naturally. like with
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
you wouldn't really want to cut anything, maybe a taiga or canopy if you really wanted 20. It hits 21 to be able to support Pridemage and Thoctar also.
Baileyarch- with the high land count and no Canopies do you ever sb out a land or two vs zoo/ aggro?
To tell ya the truth, I'm the only person in my weekly 25 to 30 person tourney that actually plays Zoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by oneiros76
Goyf Sligh is played, but I'm not scared of that matchup at all. As long as i watch how i fetch so PoP doesn't fuck me I'm fine. Your threats stay around theirs don't.
Plus with my Sideboard, i couldn't think of anything to put in except for maybe Ancient Grudge in those kinda matchups.
You guys really aren't thinking about Canopy correctly, at all. The reason it is amazing is because you can use it to "cheat" your manabase numbers; the card actually lets you run extra lands.
I've been doing a lot of testing against decks with mana denial elements (there are a lot of them currently in the format, after all), and many of those matchups are in Zoo's favor, as long as the mana denial doesn't cause a blow-out. Obviously, one way to help prevent that scenario is to add more lands to the deck, but that has the drawback of lessening the threat density, which has a negative impact in practically every matchup.
What Horizon Canopy is is an almost tailor-made solution to this problem. It is a beautifully-designed compromise between running more lands and maintaining a deck's threat density. It taps for mana when you need it, and cycles for an extra card when you don't. You can add Horizon Canopy to any deck as an additional mana source without increasing the likelihood of mana flood, because an unnecessary Canopy can easily replace itself with an extra draw.
Based on my testing, the correct number of lands for a Zoo deck is somewhere between nineteen and twenty. That is where you have the best odds of avoiding both manascrew and manaflood. However, with three or four Horizon Canopies incorporated into the manabase, you can easily run 21 or 22 lands without the expected decrease in threat density. My current set-up, with three Horizon Canopies and 21 lands total, is actually less vulnerable to either manascrew or manaflood than a list without Canopies, because it simultaneously has more mana sources and fewer "normal" lands that can't cycle into business.
There are, of course, some trade-offs to playing with Horizon Canopy. Although it taps for two of Zoo's colors (so lucky!), it doesn't tap for red, the most important one. This means that a manabase with Canopy may have fewer red sources than it would have otherwise (mine, for example, has fifteen red sources with Canopy, but would have sixteen or seventeen without it, even if it would have fewer lands total). This is acceptable, but finding the right balance is a matter of testing. I have tried playing four Canopies in a list with only twenty lands total, which meant that there was only room for thirteen red sources. This gave the deck tremendous threat density, but it made Fireblast unreliable, and it did indeed cause some problems powering Apes and Nacatls in the face of mana denial, as some of you have suggested.
However, since I have arrived at the current arrangement, I have noticed a greater resiliency to mana denial, thanks to the extra lands, and I pop Canopies all of the time in order to draw into game-winning spells. I'm completely sold on the card, both theoretically and through experience. Can anybody who has tested a similar list tell me they aren't?
This kind of logic is why I listen when Alix talks.
Yeah I'm thinking about cutting a land, and It'll be a Savannah before anything else. That's what kills me about Canopy too, It's just another Savannah, and that is the weakest dual in the deck ya know? I just found myself in situations where i had to decide to cast spells or pop Canopy for a card i couldn't play in the same turn. Idk i totally see the good points that everyone are making though.
I'm gonna give Lavamancer a shot too i think. I wouldn't ever run him as over a 3 of because multiples would be crappy, but if i cut a land and my 2 Isamaru, which are bad in multiples too, i could fit in Lavamancer.
Thoughts?
Alix, could you post your current list please?
This really doesn't make sense to me. If you have something to play, play it. Why would you want to pop Canopy? It's there to function as a land until you need the card or as a card to "cycle" if you draw it late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Damage from it IS relevant. And digging for an answer as well. That's what i meant. Sorry i didn't clarify.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
I think I will try 1 Canopy in my 19 land-build, obv instead of a Savannah. I feel that 19 lands are the way to go for me and I think I´m going to try Hellspark Elemental instead of Kird Ape. I´ll let you know the results.
Baileyarch- lavamancer has always been nuts for me, while you can kind of choke on him when you don't have enough red mana for spells plus his activation, the damage that he can generate directly to your opponent definitely makes up for it. Also in multiples you're right he can be awkward, but you can also get situations where you have two, activate 1 or 2 eot, next turn Fireblast+activate them both again. He's incredibly important in merfolk matchups too, I was running 3 for a while and switched to 4 because of merfolk. He's able to perform targeted removal on their lords, where other Isamaru types just swing in while they build up their horde and run you over, and keeping up with removing their lords is more important now that they're adding 4 more to their list (maybe?). His ability to trade his activation for a creature is really valuable also, and in a last ditch Ichorid situation he can blast himself (;_;).
Snief- Definitely let us know, whenever I test out Hellspark or Marauders I always find myself wishing they were more permanent cheap pounders though.
Regarding playing around daze, does and should this deck play around daze? Or are there only specific situations to do that? (eg. playing burn spells once a turn, ensuring you have that one mana to pay for daze)
I don't ever see this deck playing around Daze in the early turns by forfeiting early creature drops. Am I correct? Or dead wrong?
I usually do not play around daze turn one. If they counter my Nacatl that's fine by me because then they're behind one land and I just love to play my Grim Lavamancer on turn 2 with only FOW as my opponents out. But the other way around happens too depending on the deck my opponent is playing.
Some examples:
Vs Merfolk its almost always Nacatl first and then Lavamancer.
Vs ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh its usually the other way around. Because Nacatl is such a good beater (early game) and Lavamancer can't target mongeese.
When I want to play Tarmogoyf I almost always do take Daze into account because he's such a big beater (most times) and I want it to stick.
@: CB4SN13
I've done alot of testing with NLU and other countertop variants, and them countering your turn one Nacatyl is bad. It allows you to race them and perhaps burn them out after they have set up.
Playing around Daze is risky, because they might just have the Counterbalance or Shackles they need, and then you're fucked. Those are the only two cards i worry about while playing around Daze to be honest. It's best to bait their counters with your mediocre spells, and then try and land a bomb. If they have the FOW then they have it, too bad. Magic is partially a game of luck.
@: oneiros76
Yeah he seems to be a bit on the ridiculous side. I hardly ever worry about the Merfolk matchup. I've only lost once with Zoo that i can recall. And that was with him chaining Standstills and the Merfolk Ringleaders, so It's understandable. I don't run Fireblast either haha.
Yeah, with this deck you "play around daze" by thinking about what's less useful to be countered. You try and bait them to counter your "less useful" spells, and then lay down better things. It's always dependent on the build, hand, and what you're playing against, but it's okay for your things to get countered.
It's likewise okay, because then you're buying yourself time to lay down a pridemage or some other strong beaters in the face of their counterbalance, or straight up just getting more tempo than them. Force of will can likewise be useful, because it gives us a chance for some card advantage with is good for us. Most of the time I just get upset when pridemage is countered, because he's really your best guy in most blue matchups, killing problem artifacts/enchantments, and lettting your other creatures swing through to contend with goyf.
I was thinking about Lavamancer, and idk wtf i was thinking about adding him. My list is WAY too permanent heavy. I'll prolly drop a land for a 4th Chain or PTE.
Seems WAY better.
Grim Lavamancer is insane. He lets you win Tarmogoyf wars. If you don't have a goyf, he'll help shrink your opponent's goyf. You can kill off plenty of small creatures or combine it with a bolt to knock off a bigger dude without expending a second burn spell. And sacrificing 2 mountains for Fireblast helps feed your Lavamancer's ability.
Anyone else tried out 1 or 2 Ajani Vengeant? I know what you're all thinking and lots of people have told me Ajani was way too slow. I've played with him in a few local tournaments. It's like an extra Lightning Helix + draws some damage away from you. It gets past Chalice, Spell Snare, and Counterbalance. Be interesting to know if anyone else has had luck with Ajani.
(I run 2 Jitte and 2 Ajani in place of 4 Chain Lightning.)
I think Sarkhan Vol is better than Ajani if you're considering planeswalkers.
I don't think that we really have any planeswalkers that make sense in zoo right now...
Ajani Vengeant seems worse than lightning helix, since more often than not that's probably about all the use you'd get out of him. Plus, the four cost can be a huge detriment.
Sarkhan Vol seems likewise not so useful, because of the 4 cost, but more importantly the fact that he doesn't really do any good by himself, and he's not easy to protect. However, the fact that he can threaten can maybe be useful? I just don't think that the 4 cost justifies their use when we have so many cheaper, and more powerful threats to be played with.
I definitely run 4 Lightning Helix. Usually, when I land Ajani, he gets to helix twice. Ajani has helped in my matches so far, but I limit him to 2, maximum.
Here's the list I run.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Woolly Thoctar
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast
4 Path to Exile
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Ajani Vengeant
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
2 Savannah
3 Plateau
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Forest