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Hi guys. I have question.
Is moat really essentially and necessity for this deck? Because i can't afford it, is humility enough for deck or need something more? On first look, i don't like ensnaring bridge (because it's to conditional), but i'm not sure about it because i didn't test it yet. So how ensnaring bridge working for those who are playing with it?
The way I see it, it works really well. Most of the time, it's a better Moat. The deck thrives on card quality, not card advantage (see Enlightened Tutor, and especially if you're not running Jace), thus you empty your hand quite fast. Wild Nacatl and other 2-3 power dudes is the worst (Goblins being a problem obviously) but cards like Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary grows way to fast to be able to attack through the bridge. Also, Ensnaring bridge is just about the most awesome thing against Progenitus and Emrakul, as they will never ever be able to attack (in reality).Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard_of_gore
I am currently playing a split between Ensnaring Bridge and Humility, fetching up which ever one is most appropriate. I think that if you don't have Moat, the risk of drawing both is negliable compared to the power of flexibility (a word that encompasses the deck really well I think). I am thinking of putting a second Ensnaring Bridge in my deck. It's that good.
If I have to say which is the card that made me win games which seemed desperate, I would say Ensnaring Bridge.
Against Kuldotha, in the semifinals, I had 3 island in play after a sundering titan and in hand Trinket, Flooded Strand and Enlightened, while he had double Welder, Wurmocoil Engine, Metalworker and Sundering Titan, and a lot of mana+voltaic key and grim monolith.
I draw a Sensei's Divining Top, i fetched for Plains, played Trinket for Pithing Needle and played it on welder, then I chumpblocked the titana and went 5 life, upkeep Enlightened for Ensnaring, played is, played top, manipulated the draw while he wasn't able to attack me, found Jace, controlled his draw avoiding Phyrexian Revokers and won by Jace.
Ensnaring is sooo strong, and Moat is too, t's the only card which saves you against Goblins and Merfolk. Resolving Moat against Gobboz is often GG, and it's valuable also vs. Merfolk.
Personally I like playing humility more over Moat. Humlity just solves a lot of problems from creatures like those in zoo, fish, goblins, aggro loam. Taking 1 damage pings was easy to get back from soon as I had the thoptersword combo going.
You wil get back into the game regardless of the situation if you have thoptersword going, 99.9% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Djz05
Moat stops the bleeding and is often GG in G1, while Humility (which can also be devastating) just slows down the bleeding (not very good against, say, 4 Gobs).
i have seen a few, bit older lists, running tezzeret, the seeker,.... are there any possible tricks with him? don't know maybe with divining top, or vedalken shackles, or was his sole purpose to tutor up for artifacts?
Any further news/development on Adam Barnello's (Nightmare) list?
I really enjoy his take on Counterthopter with 3 Opals, artifact lands, Ensnaring Bridge MD, Thopters, Top and other artifact goodies. I've been working on a personal list and Tezz 2.0 is very very powerful. The deck wins faster because of Tezz 2.0 (digging 5 cards a turn is huge) and ultimating with ~5-10 artifacts is game-winning and allows the deck to win much faster with/without Thopters.
I'm just wondering if anyone else has tested similar versions of Adam's list before I go about posting one. It proably doesn't belong in this thread since it's quite different than the classic Thopters list.
A traditional UWx CounterTop Thopters list made 14th place at SCG Open Atlanta: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=37576
Pretty standard looking list, although I'd probably replace the 3 Mindbreak Trap with something else in the sideboard, possibly Spell Pierce.
I'll be very eager to see that list. I have been brewing something along these lines as well, but I have been having trouble with Zoo and other fast aggro. If not here, then please share it in a PM or start a new thread dedicated to Turbu Thopters (or what it's gonna be called :P).Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
- forsmark
For those having trouble finishing games with/without ThopterSword, have you considered running Elspeth instead of radically changing the deck? I mean, Elspeth makes 4/4 flyers by herself, makes your 1/1 tokens 5/5 flyers, she protects herself/Jace, works well with Humility/Moat, and is less vulnerable to stuff like Rebuild than Tezzeret & Co. are.
Me and a couple of Swedes went to Danish Legacy Masters last weekend. Here's a brief report and a decklist!
ENCHANTMENTS (6)
4 Counterbalance
1 Dark Tutelage
1 Humility
INSTANTS (16)
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (3)
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
ARTIFACTS (15)
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Mox Opal
1 Engineered Explosives
LANDS (20)
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
1 Vault of Whispers
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
SIDEBOARD
3 Thoughtseize
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Spell Pierce
1 Future Sight
~90 players, 7 rounds. Not remembering that much...
R1: Goblins. A pretty tough matchup... He denied me mana. I had about 4-5 turns to find Ensnaring Bridge but failed. Sideboard;
-1 dark tutelage -1 engineered explosives -1 thopter foundry -1 sword of the meek -4 counterbalance +3 thoughtseize +1 pithing needle +1 ensnaring bridge +3 path to exile. I kept an ok hand and seized aways his only threath. He wasted some lands while I failed to find anything relevant except Ensnaring Brdige. A ringleader for 4 later and my chances looked grim. He revealed a Tin-street hooligan and I hoped he would play it. I figured he wouldn't because me playing draw go for a couple of turns signaling that I either had spells I couldn't play or some kind of counterspell. He did and I forced removing brainstorm. He followed up with Matron for SCG. I could either find white for the humility I was holding, enlightened tutor for pithing needle or black mana for the thoughtseize i had. I didn't and lost.
I think the matchup is reasonable but wasteland/port just gets people without blockers =P
0-1
R2: Bant. This was pretty easy. I plowed a few threaths, bated fow with thopter foundry (love having multiples for that purpose) and tezz went nuts. Game 2 was more of the same except I also had path to exile.
1-1
R3: BW Deadguy. It was a fun/tense game with all the discard going on. My deck topdecks pretty sweet, esp. with Sensei's divining top. Humility was mvp. I don't remember what I sideboarded... Tezzeret's second ability takes care of bears with sword of fire and ice, even when protected with mother of runes =)
2-1
R4: BWG Junk.
About the same as last game except he had bigger creatures.
Sideboard -4 fow -1 thopter foundry -1 sword of the meek +3 path to exile +1 ensnaring bridge +2 spell pierce
3-1
R5: Dredge
He mulliganed to 5 game1 and I almost had him... Not that upset loosing a game1 against dredge though:)
G2: I kept a decent hand. He removed my Tormod's crypt (I should perhaps have waited playing it but I was afraid of Cabal Therapy). Tezzeret came down and was a 2 turn clock.
G3: I shipped a 1-lander, saw none and kept a good 5. He kept a slow hand with 2 discard outlets, nature's claim and some lands. I had a window of 4-5 turns to find hate/bomb but failed. He dread returned 2 grave trolls which is good against humility. I had foundry to buy a few turns but didn't find sword of the meek or a plow/path. He also had terastodon backup. Quite annoying as the matchup feels ok... he was a nice guy who played well though.
-4 counterbalance -1 dark tutelage -1 sword of the meek -1 thopter foundry +3 path to exile +1 nihil spellbomb +1 tormod's crypt +1 wheel of sun and moon +1 ensnaring bridge
3-2
R6: Merfolk
I felt a bit exhausted but knew that they can't win through Ensnaring bridge... I did my best to resolve it but it was not ment to be.
Sideboard: -1 thopter foundry -4 counterbalance +1 pithing needle +3 path to exile +1 ensnaring bridge. I was temped on thoughtseize/spell pierce for additional Ensnaring Bridge protection but decided it was not worth it. I ran thopter foundry into daze just to get it out of the way. Cast bridge turn 5 with mana for daze/cursecatcher on my fow. He also had fow. He played Thada Adel and drained me from the combo. I tried to resolve my second bridge but he had spell pierce.
3-3
R7: A Swedish friend of mine, we knew each others decks. Mirror (except he had stoneforge mystic and squadron hawks). From playtesting earlier I knew that besides it was a grind I couldn't let him connect with Sword of Fire and Ice.
G1: I resolved Dark tutelage and he couldn't beat that.
Sideboard -4 swords to plowshares -1 humility -1 ensnaring bridge -1 thopter foundry -1 sword of the meek +3 thoughtseize +2 spell pierce +1 future sight +1 wheel of sun and moon +1 pithing needle (for jace/sofi).
G2: In this game (I think) he resolved jace and fatesealed me while i had EE / Academy ruins going for his squadron hawks. If he had brainstormed instead I think he would have pulled ahead. I had a few drawsteps to find an answer to jace but didn't.
G3: He drew quite poorly and scooped them up when I had cb/top, dark tutelage, tezz and foundry.
4-3. I think I could've won against dredge/merfolk aswell as loosing to that BW-guy. The deck was a blast to play and I would play the same list again.
In a deck as slow as this Tezzeret is the real deal. Making 5/5:s out of nowhere is something people are not prepared for.
I remember one game when we were both empty... I had sword of the meek in my yard and some lands/tops/mox. I drew and played tezzeret. +1 for thopter foundry, made 3 tokens eot. Made 6 more tokens during my turn and drained him for lethal with tezz.
Mox Opal is great aswell. Im tempted to run a singleton Chrome mox but decided against it... the opal beeing legendary is not that big of a deal. One match I was hiding behind Ensnaring Bridge and had 2 moxen in hand. I taped them for mana and saced them to the foundry, played the next, did the same and was safe for the time beeing:)
Against black I usually board -1 thopter foundry -1 sword of the meek for fear of extirpate. Most people bring a lot of hate (krosan grip) so it's a good idea to rely less on it.
Is Dark Tutelage better than Future Sight? It is nice that we can tutor that up for card advantage and it is a lot easier to cast than future sight.
At first I tried Dark confidant in the sideboard and it was ok.They were a bit shaky and died even though most people (should) take their creaturehate out. Tutelage only takes 1 slot which is a big plus in this deck. It also dodge spell snare. I was so happy with it that i decided to put it in the main. Having a E.tutor target for 3 that is not horrible against an empty board is also a plus (unlike ensnaring bridge).
It was truly devastating on the Hymn to tourach decks. I have 12 cards that help me not killing myself so the lifeloss is not that relevant.
I still like Future sigh as a complement in the controlmatchups... they can't really beat that card:) going inf with top or counter force of will with enlightended tutor is just gravy.
@ Mackan, The losses to Goblins and Merfolk could be avoided if you had played traditional UW. Basics are really good right now and I think that going heavy artifacts is not great for this deck. The games you won with Tez, could also have been won with Jace, since both are insane. Tez also forces you into 3 colours, where Jace is as good if not better than Tez. Seat of the synod and other artifact lands are IMO bad because wasteland really can screw your metalcraft for mox and keep you off the mana you need for bridge/moat. IMO the Adam Barnello/Gearheart thopther builds are "in danger of cool things". That's my 2 cents though.
The traditional UW version, with Jace and/or Elspeth, seem fine to me. Thopter/Sword only takes up 3-5 slots, with the rest of the deck operating independently as a UW CounterTop Jace deck that just so happens to run a rediculously good, albeit slowish, two-card combo in Thopter/Sword. Being able to run 5-7 on-color basic lands is also AMAZING. I'm not really sure what value people are getting from going a firm 3 color route, relying heavily on artifacts, and playing Tezzeret instead of Jace/Elspeth. Not my style, but if results suggest that UBW Tezzeret lists outperform UWx lists, then I suppose we should investigate.
I agree with Arsenal UW works very well with jace or elspeth. The only time i would say you would want to splash is for a known meta. The one example I have of this is when i use to run UWr for main deck bolts to raise my spot removal up to 7 from 4 because my meta at the time was a largely merfolk with stoneforge and other tribe decks. But for an unknown meta U/W work amazing because like Arsenal said you get a larger number of basics , which my experience help win games more then a lot of other cards.
Yo to everybody, I played a 36 people tournament and a mini 16 people torunament this week edn with the following lists:
Deep Blue Thopters
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei'd Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Moat
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Vedalken Shackles
Sideboard
2 Perish
1 Nature's Ruin
2 Path to Exile
2 Meddling Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun//Moon
1 Aura Flux
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1° turn, New Horizon: 2-1
2° turn, Life.deck: 2-0
3° turn, Enchantress: 2-1
4° turn, Zoo: 0-2
5° turn, Brun: 1-1
6° turn, Dark Horizon: 2-0
Quarterfinals, Canadian Threshold: 2-1
Semifinals, Dark Horizon: 2-1
Finals, Burn: 0-2
I ended 2nd and won 2 Volcanic Islands and 2 Scalding Tarns. Next day I decided to try something different, a more aggro-control shell with Tophter foundry in sideboard:
Caw-Caw Varsuvius
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
4 Squadron Hawk
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Vendillion Clique
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Moat
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard
2 Perish
2 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Energy Flux
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Wheel of sun//Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensaring Bridge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
Only 4 turns, I won first two rounds against Goblin (G1 resolving Moat = GG) and Bant, then I.D. on 3rd and 4th round.
Quarterfinals: Thopter Foundry, 2-0
Semifinals: Jace Landeed, 2-1
Finals: Ichordi, 2-0 with Moat taht wins alone
for any detail in the game Pm me.
I just want to add that Elspeth is better if youre meta is more aggro. If it has more control, Jace breaks the control mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Here's my current list:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
1 Wrath of God
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Pierce
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Engineered Plague
1 Serenity
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
I'm most likely going to test -1 Tundra, +1 Volcanic Island, then try to fit 3 Red Elemental Blast in the sideboard. I'm also going to probably go -1 Crucible of Worlds, +1 Future Sight in the sideboard as I find Crucible of Worlds to be good, but not great as I don't run Wasteland and Future Sight should be able to break control mirrors in a more impactful way than Crucible of Worlds could.
Yeah, pretty sure I'm going to go -3 Counterspell, +3 Mental Misstep... looking to trim something else to fit the 4th in somewhere maindeck. Thoughts?