That's not true! With 3 moxen in the deck the Chance of drawing one in your opening hand is far less than 27%. A 4-of would be something around 22% so I guess a three-of makes maybe ~15%.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
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That's not true! With 3 moxen in the deck the Chance of drawing one in your opening hand is far less than 27%. A 4-of would be something around 22% so I guess a three-of makes maybe ~15%.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Actually, from what I'm getting, the chance of drawing at least one Mox in your opener would be 31.542%. That doesn't take into account lands though, so it's slightly higher (meaning, it includes 1 Mox and 5/6 land, 2 Mox and 5 land hands, etc which are probably unkeepable on a non-Mox related basis).
The percentage to get at least one 4-of is 39.949%.
How are you calculating this?
GSZ is really good
- T1 Llanowar Elf, T3 Goyf or T4 KotR
- flexibility to prevent screw and flood: In a starting hand with many lands and GSZ you keep it for later, with only few lands you have a mana elf.
- flexible solution for problematic Artifacts/Enchantments. Just play a singleton Pridemage.
- post board Lifegain / Teeg
- it increases the light threat count
- it reveals for Confidant for just 1
For the Sideboard I suggest 2-3 Seeds of Innocence or Kataki.
Affinity is pretty broken and Etched Champion is a bitch. You can't kill or block it and if they have Plating it IS Progenitus. Also the Grom Monolith / Wurmcoil decks are quite insane. It is also a good weapon against Staxx, Faerie Stompy and Dragon Stompy. Imo Seeds of Innocence is better.
You all do what you want..But Ill say this noble hirearch and GSZ aint no mox GSZ doesnt shuffle back when you are forced to discard it or gets counterd doesnt fetch anything but green creatures....Thats a card you would run in bant or some shit where you fetch dryad arbor or quasali or warmonk or trygon predator or some shit util or setup for a natural order on the dryad you fetched I aint runnin no damn lanowar elves in my rock build....No moxes means no turn 1 bob into turn 2 draw 2 cards thoughtseize and hymn to your oppents face turn 3 draw 2 cards into wasteland on theyre non basic and vindicate on another land now thats a powerhouse legacy type play....In 3 turns You drop a 2/1 dude draw 4 cards strip 3 cards from your oppnents hand and blow up 2 of theyre lands....Instead of turn one hirearch or GSZ for some dryad arbor or lanar elf into a second turn bob and maybe if your lucky a thoughtseize if the additional land you have isnt a wasteland or somthing else that cant produce black into 3rd turn finally being able to maybe cast hymn and draw a few cards....thanks but no thanks....Thats why mox is boss...
I agree that gerrards verdicts main is to much hand disruption thats dead late so I chose to add a tutor to my main and an explosives the explosives is faster than deed against anything that drops turn one dumb shit like mom or vial and tokens and the tutor ups my reactiveness and consistency since it fetchs top early or deed or explosives... Explosives is great for blowing up shit smaller than your knights like opposing goyfs and can hit shit higher up too when ran with moxes not to mention tutor fetches dueling grounds or plague or cannonist post board or any other artifacts and enchantments you want even tide hollow sculler if you would want to add him...
The secret is in the side board in my opinion...There are 3 slots in the main deck in my opinion that are optional and they aint mox...And the drawing dead late thing I dont undertstand We run 8 fetches to tear 2 for 1 lands outta the deck and thin it and knight which tool boxes and tears lands out even if you tap fetch a fetch land and sack it to pump him +2 and thin out... Plus bob plus 3 tops so how is it that you find an issue getting what you need late? IMO the deck has great game vs a multitude of top decks and thats why the decks that place are running real close to the cookie cutter version with verdicts and moxes unless you want to go real aggro in which case you should just play dark zoo or some shit.....
Hmmm, I couldn't really get through that oddly composed wall of text. ;) So basically you are saying GSZ is the SuXors and Mox is the RoXors because of the turn one bump up in speed. I agree it gives you more explosive openings, but what if your first few threats are answered. Say hymm gets spell pierced, or bob gets plowed. Both sides will be in top deck mode very soon. You don't always stick what you are casting, unless you goldfish too much...
Mox ruins the deck's attrition game severely. It ups the dead card count in a deck with too many late game dead cards already (lands, discard). By playing GSZ you are simply taking the "safe" route and ensuring a better late game when it comes down to attrition. GSZ is also a great speed boost early game and as Tao has pointed out, the flexibility is ridiculously useful. Right now I would only play mox if the meta was mostly combo or sligh, with very little midrange/control decks. I find that unlikely though as most of the field is usually some sort of midrange aggro-control.
After doing a bit of testing with this, I would definitely run Zenith as a 2-of in non-Mox builds. 2 Pridemages MD just add to the "Blow Stuff Up" factor of this deck. This plus Teeg from the board was pretty good in the combo MU.
I couldn't read Deezy's poorly structured post.
Yeah my post sucked....LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Post a list Id like to see one Im curious to see yalls take...Dont get me wrong I like GRZ as a card it just feels like a package best suited for deck a built around it...Seems kinda like it would take away from the decks synergy to me...Also if you top deck a lanowar elf with no GRZ late game thats a bust and you still have land and disscard...It seems like you slow the deck down to gain what you say is an attirition game if I need creatures back I can pop in volraths stronghold.......Top plus eight fetches usually gets it done for me...Anyways Im curious to see your lists...and some data from some testing....
I'm not saying GSZ is a bad card. I just don't think this is the deck for it (without majorly revamping the deck). The requirements for double black on t2 make it really awkward. It's been great in Zoo testing since Zoo wants Green early anyways and can hold off on white/red until t2 or t3. We rarely want to be dropping threats (ie our Green cards) before we've disrupted them. If you want to design a more Junk aggro deck it might work out better.
First of all:
Holy fuck insane.zaine, separate your thoughts into coherent sentences. Periods are allowed on the internet. I understand where you're coming from, but more people will take your arguments seriously if you use real grammatical structure. Deezy, you too. You have good thoughts, but please organise them. It makes them easier to read. A wall of text like that usually makes me skip some of your posts, informative or useless drivel, I can't tell. This isn't high school English class, but still, respect the language :)
@ Green Sun Zenith:
I've seen it be played more and more, and I'm thinking you have to build around it, but it seems solid. I don't think you can just cut Moxen and shove them in, but I think with enough care and attention, a very solid list could be built around them. My friend is toying with a GSZ build, so I'll let you know how it goes. I didn't realize this also shuffles in, so it's better than I initially thought.
@ Tournament Report for 24/2/11 Legacy:
I ended up playing Rock to get some practice in for Sunday's tournament. I was toying with the list, and have tweaked it to the following:
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
4 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords
2 Path
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate (I think I'm going to go with 3 Vindicate 1 Pulse for Sunday. I'm not always on the mana denial plan, and the miser's Pulse can sometimes be a blessing when you need more card advantage)
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining-Top
Board:
A bit wonky since I knew there would be no combo, but I would see Meandeck MUD.
4 Null Rod instead of 4 Leyline of Sanctity, rest is the same as always.
---------------
I'll write more later, but I think against Kira and Progenitus, I'm in need of some Diabolic Edicts. It kind of sucked getting T3 Progenitus'd from a random Bant list after tearing apart his hand and laying Goyf. So awkward. As much as the Leylines give me massive game against combo, I'm at a loss at what to cut to keep everything I want to, and do well against Progenitus/Kira.
-Matt
Losing to Proggy after you tear apart his hand is bad beats. This happened to me alot, especially if my opponent stuck the T1 Top. I found the best pre board way was to wreck the manabase. If you have an active knight, tear the opponent's mana to shreds before you start bashing. As for Kira, the card is annoying since you play so much removal. It's similar to mom. Usually I just power through Kira with more beats. That seems harder for your list with 8 giants + 1 elspeth. I have 4 GSZ and the 2nd elspeth for more beats. But since you are threat light, damnation is actually a good card out of the board. Opponents dont expect it so sandbag it and bait counters with other spells. Save it for last and blow out your opponent.
On GSZ, yes you can't just throw GSZ into any list. Your deck/manabase has to be carefully designed to incorporate it. Regarding the naming convention (junk/ zenith aggro/ rock), I can't really comment on it because GWB/BGW/WBG aggro all looks similar to me and all play 4 goyf, 4 bob, 4 KOTR. The supporting spells/dudes are the only differences.
LOL!!!! Yeah I got ADD!!! so I just type shit as it comes and not really in any particular fashion or order......
Maybe I should actually plan what I want to say before typing....
I think perhaps replacing the 4 Leylines with 4 Edicts should help out, because Edicting away
Prog/Kira would be not bad. but, I could always go 2 Edict 2 Damnation, and replace a Deed when I board.
He stuck the first-turn Noble, and then ripped into it after Thoughtseize-Hymn. Frick.
-Matt
For those running the 4 Confidant, 4 Goyf, 4 KotR creature suite, do you ever find yourself a bit threat-lite? Like, you run out a Confidant, then it gets StPed at the end of your turn, then you don't apply pressure at all for another 2-3 turns until you find another threat?
YES, thats why I play:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 KOTR
4 GSZ
2 Elspeth
This gives me 18 bombs to wrap up the game compared to the traditional 12. Thats what I like about GSZ most, it doubles as accelerator early and a threat later.
Rarely, only in very long games. Usually against Countertop or the like. Between Top and fetches or Confidant I don't usually have a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
@GSZ+Arbor: Don't mind the card in this deck that much but speaking of Arbor, the acceleration of a only G mana doesn't really get there for this deck. You don't accelerate into Goyf, Knight's not really the best on turn two without multiple fetches/Mox, there's usually Hymn, Thoughtseize, Inquisition/Gerrard's, and Swords in the first few turns, all not being able to utilize green mana making the "acceleration" very limited. On top of that, wanting to get a swamp instead of a Bayou on turn one like Dzra said.
I typed a big post a couple days ago about the comparison of Hierarch and Mox but decided not to post it. Guess I should have. Just to summarize; Noble Hierarch is only good on the first turn, and is bad on turns two to three because you want to do other stuff those turns. Even then it's not that great because I'd rather turn one Thoughtseize than play Hierarch, after which it's dead for the next couple of turns then becomes sub-par in that stage.
When it comes to topdecking Hierarch, a 0/1 or 1/2 is not going to win you the game in 99%(Pulled out of my Encyclopedia Buttanica) of situations. It arguably improves your topdecks slightly, though you end up having to pack more dual lands for black mana taking out utility lands that do win matchups(Maze/Karakas/Canopy, some run Bog main but I don't) which are not strictly bad topdecks.
Mox is good on any turns one to three because it can help you surprise your opponent with haste, while being zero mana will still allow you to play what you want. Adds black mana, which to me is the most useful color in the early turns(second- white for Swords/Vindicate).
Then there are other benefits like being good against land disruption. Nuts in the Goblins and Stompy matchups and good against Merfolk to get a turn two Hymn off or generally to nullify Daze/Cursecatcher that turn. Doesn't die to Perish in their sideboards. Although Hierarch does get you around Weirding, but I can handle losing a Goyf as long as I can play another with the mana stability Mox gives me.
And Mox's card disadvantage isn't so bad unless you have only one land in your starting hand, because all it does is make you discard a land which, depending on what it is, can have limited impact as long as you have two mana.
Prepost edit:
I like that but I question how useful Arbor acceleration is. And it, along with double Elspeth, makes your curve higher too which I like to keep away from. What's your list? What do you take out to make room?Quote:
Thats what I like about GSZ most, it doubles as accelerator early and a threat later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
These points I think are the really big issues with cramming GSZ in Nelson's list. The GSZ plan doesn't really help with color fixing the deck, it requires green mana to cast and can pull up Dryad Arbor, producing more green mana. The deck doesn't have early explosive plays to make use of double green mana though. Mox is nice because it accellerates at a more oppertune time getting turn 1 Bob or Hymn is a really big threat and it facilitates the same powerful turn 2 plays like KoR or 1cc disruption + Goyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Rach
It may come down to being a meta call, if you're faced with many attrition decks, going the GSZ approach might be right, favoring your late game at the expense of your early game. Although in an open meta I'd lean towards having the more explosive options (and stronger colored mana base) from Mox I think.
Yes, a little...
However, I think 14 creatures would be too much and basicly I only want to play one extra.
I'm not really sure which one, but currently I have a Stirring Wildwood in the deck, just hate the fact he comes into play tapped, so you can't go "Surprise, blocker!!"
I don't usually find myself too threat light, but I'd love to play 8 Knights of the Reliquary. Obviously, it can happen, but more often than not I've got 1-2 creatures on board. Perish really sucks balls, though. I want to play Dauntless Escort in the board just against the Perish plan. Plus, a 3/3 for 3 isn't terrible, either.
Noble is good if you're not running Hymn, pretty plain and simple. If you do run Hierarch and Hymn, you're having to fetch double Bayou in the first two turns, which is not ideal in the "usual" lists running around. If I had to play a manadork in a Non-GSZ build, it may be Hierarch due to exalted winning Goyf wars way more often than you'd think. If you're running heavy black, like most builds, Mox is probably going to be your best bet. There is an upside, and I can't deny it, for Mox fucking over Wasteland a bit, tis true. But, if they Wasteland the land you fetched, you're still stuck on one with no lands to play subsequently, so you're still in the same boat, slightly.
I'd be interested in seeing Birds in the build with GSZ, but we'll see. It would give me an excuse to play 4 Beta Birds.
Also, does anyone have a source for a Beta Scrubland? I'm going to the tournament, but I'm short a Beta copy, and lord knows I don't want to play 3 Beta and 1 Revised *cuts wrists*
-Matt
I agree, with the points being made. I'm not sure how your meta looks like, but I see alot of attrition decks in my area. Half my field is some kind of midrange aggro-control (First deck people build is some kind of Bant). GSZ, like mox has downsides. I play GSZ, I also play hymm. Strange? Yes and it fucks up my manabase because I'm so greedy. But it's working for me and YES I have tested against wasteland, I survived. Againt moon and waste-lock? I fail miserably. But it's part of the risks I take. Here's my list:
4 GSZ
4 Tarmogoyf
4 KOTR
4 Bob
2 Elspeth
1 Pridemage
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymm
4 Vindicate
4 STP
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Verdant
4 Heath
2 Marsh Flats
4 Bayou
2 Scrub
1 Savanna
4 Wastes
1 Arbor
I'm very greedy, I admit. This has been working though and I stand by it. The extra threat density GSZ gives you and the versatility is just too good to turn down.