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What is the general consensus in building the control shell? There are 2 types that the deck's direction can go which are the creatureless build + more walkers and the old America shell of 8 creatures with walkers. Which one has more game against RUG? I would prefer the 8 creatures build with walkers as the number of threats are more diverse while not shying away frm the what the deck wants to do.
http://mtgpulse.com/event/11239#156151Quote:
Originally Posted by sumbahdy
http://mtgpulse.com/event/11238#156144
There are the two poles. They both have game against RUG although RUG isn't really too big a problem anymore with AD shutting off their early, 'play a creature protect protect protect' plan. If you like creatures, play em. I don't like creatures, so I don't. You'll have an edge against an aggro field pre-board playing with your own Goyfs but it also turns their removal on -- your call.
The 'general consensus' has been the same as its always been, just build the rest of the deck to do whatever you wanna do.
Thanks for the reply. I followed the thread when the build was running Hymns alongside Snapcaster Mage. I tried both actually the creatureless one is bordering Bug Still anyhow and still find it too slow. I will still try to play both since I only need to swap a few cards in order to make the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikenbok
In my opinion: If you master the deck you can be successful in both approaches!
The only problem I see with the creatureless version in a real tournament environment is that not being able to have fast wins is a big disadvantage. Even Miracle control complains about this problem although they have entreat and with that a superfast way to formally win the game. The other disadvantage is that the game plan of “creatureless” is more linear whereas the creature version is more flexible in executing it’s game plan. For my personal taste I like to be able to consciously switch gears in any given game – beeing able to be proactive is a big asset in many matchups.
Concerning the overall strength I find the creature version to have a better combo/burn/sligh/dredge matchup or in general a better matchup vs. a wide field, whereas the creatureless version to be better against Maverick & RUG.
Timing & skill issues (no free/easy wins for creatureless) will make “creatureless” never really popular but lovers gonna play and win with it. Also the hardcore control lovers have a lot of incentives going into UW for a 1 mana wrath.
The creature version on the other hand has advantage has merits in gaining maximum value out of deathrite shaman. To me mana acceleration in a deck running jace (and/or wasteland) is super strong, and with the other abilities and a 1/2 body this is a justifyable birds of paradise.
Can you explain the general sideboard?
I'm going get into this deck and play it hopefully at my next Legacy event.
Would like to know what match ups I bring in X and take out Y if that isn't too much to ask.
Also,
How is BUG control's match up against U/W standstill (Gerry T's list), Esper Stoneblade, Goblins and Enchantress?
Thanks alot for reading and I hope you answer!
Please read the last 4-5 pages of the thread, it answers all of your questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by toasterprodigy
i like this build alot as its pretty much what i played .As for changes, i would say play 24 land and drop a demise and a snapcaster..you wont be sorry add a boyou and an islandQuote:
Originally Posted by Kyle
@Kyle
List is groovy, I dig it a lot (cept I'll never leave home without a full set of forces MD)
More importantly, perhaps a few tips on yer SB - take em or leave em:
Grafdigger's cage should either be relic or crypt, Snappies + cage = no good
Dread of Night should definitely be reconsidered as the games you'd be bringing it in are games you'd still be running Deed and well DoN + Deed = no good
Also, the 2nd Damnation in the board seems like it fit a more proactive role of being something else.
This would give you up 3 slots to work with (considering you do in fact take any of my advice) allowing you to add either a Raven's crime, fourth Jace, Engineered Explosives, or - my personal favorite, Dark Confidant.
Just some brainstorming.
Guys, just wanted to mention that Golgari Charm is an amazing sideboard addition, at least theorically. Is a possible answer to Omniscience if you don't manage to counter Show and Tell or Therapy/Rector. I mean, obviously countering the enabler is better in this case, but if you lose the counter war now you have a small chance to survive. After a counterwar, most of the times playing Charm in response to the first spell played off Omniscience stops the combo, unless the opponent has a really really good hand.
Then, it kills Goblins, Thalias, Moms, Empty the Warrens Goblins, stops Elf Combo during their critical turn (the third) , just by being played in response to Archdruid or to Glimpse - which is something both Deed and E-Plague can't do.
I'll give it a try. We have a shitload of dead cards Vs Omnitell anyway so adding more hate, in the form of a card which can be easily Sb'ed in Vs a LOT of different matchups seems cool.
So on Saturday i took this list to a small tournament for testing :
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster mage
2 Vendilion Clique
//Sideboard
1 Life from the Loam
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thrun the last Troll
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Counterspell
So a very short report :
Round 1 Belcher 1:2
Game 1 : 2 Spell Pierce and Tarmo gets me there
Game 2 : Mulligan to 5, but no answer to his swarm in time
Game 3 : When he goes off, i had in Hand : Force, blue pitch card and Flusterstorm, at the end of his chain he casts Burning Wish with 1 Card in his Hand remaining, and here beginns my mistake ? ( So opininons on these are very welcome !) At the very first Moment i wanted to cast Force, and then thought, what if he has Belcher, which can't Flusterstorm can't handle, so i swithched and cast Flusterstorm, and his last card was of course Empty the Warens and i can't handle the tokens in time :-(
Perhaps i should have countered when he ramps his mana...?
Round 2 AnT : 1:1
Game 1 : Game 1 i get there, with the help of Snappy
Game 2 : 3 Discard Spell from him took all my counters was too much..
Game 3 : Ended in a draw, i had 4 Lands in hand and 5 in Play (man i was so flood) and nothing else, so it was all about bluffing and hoping he didin't draw discard...
Round 3 : Reanimator 2:1
Game 1 : Discard, daze on the play was too much
Game 2 : Clique in response to his show and tell....;-)
Game 3 : 2 Surgical + Snappy was enough
> never saw a deathride
Round 4 Goblins : 1:1
> Game 1 Tarmos and Decay, got me there, man is Decay better than swords hitting vials :-)
> Game 2 : Screw and his wastelands and i never got backin the game
> Game 3 : Endless game, Jace is so good when he stays a few turns, but wasn't able to close the game in time..
Final thoughts :
> thinking about upping deathrides to 4, and play a game of turn 1 deathride, turn 2 clique, or turn 3 jace sounds good, if i can't start with discard, depends on match up...
> upping wastelands to 4
Generally I try to counter the spell that would generate the 4th mana. OR the 3rd mana depending if you suspect a spirit guide. depends on your gut feel but more or less try to stop the mana spell and not their win con because you can't risk holding a Flusterstorm against Belcher or a FOW against empty.Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanbathez
@metronome2charisma: Thanks for the advice, so far dropping the Snapcaster has been great. The deck runs so much more smoothly with an extra land, and considering how mana-hungry this deck can get, especially with the Snapcasters, the +1 Land -1 Snapcaster is a great balance. I chose to only go with one extra land - a basic Forest - only because I make it habit of always running 3 basic lands in every tri-color deck I play, mostly because of the rampant Nic Fit in my meta.
@Chikenbok: Also, thanks for your advice. In my brainless state I went on your original "paraplegic mountain climbing" advice and started using Grafdiggers, and found that I was very rarely boarding it in, not to mention that anti-synergy of Snapcasters with 'em (hence the "brainless" part). Your advice to use Relic I think is spot-on: it hates on so much of the current meta - it keeps RUG and Maverick down, hurts Dredge gradually or all at once, and can keep Reanimator under control in some instances. I never thought of the nonbo of Pernicious Deed and Dread of Night.
So, here are my deck edits, which seem to be working nicely (so far). I removed the maindeck Damnation because it's a really awful dead draw if up against combo, Miracles, or really anything non-aggro. I figure the deck has enough murderdeathkill in the form of Innocent Blood, Ghastly Demise, Abrupt Decay, and Maelstrom Pulse and post-board I bring in all the aggro hate if necessary.
More Thoughtseizes for combo hate, plus the great sweeper of Night of Soul's Betrayal.
-1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Ghastly Demise
-1 Damnation
-1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Force of Will
+1 Forest
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Verdant Catacombs
SB: -2 Dread of Night
SB: -1 Force of Will
SB: -2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: +1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
SB: +2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: +2 Thoughtseize
Has Gifts Ungiven been played with? Is it too slow for it's cmc? Require to be more built around?
It's not like this deck has trouble getting to 4 - 5 mana.
I'm brewing a BUG deck to play in a ~100 player tournament a few weeks from now.
This is what I have in mind:
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
4x Fow
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
2x Spell Pierce
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Darkblast
2x Ghastly Demise
3x Ancestral Vision
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
1x Life from the Loam
4x Jace, TMS
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Pernicious Deed
3x UG Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Wasteland
SB:
2x Deathrite Shaman
2x Engineered Plague
1x Night of Soul's Betrayal
2x Flusterstorm
1x Life from the Loam
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
2x Surgical Extraction
There are a few points I'd like to discuss:
- Ancestral Vision over Standstill, pros and cons?
- Many lists are running Maelstrom Pulse. I'm not sure what I would need it for.
- Ghastly Demise or Innocent Blood?
- My sideboard is a little all over the place. Any suggestions? I expect the meta consists of all the usual suspects but I'm unsure of what to hate the most.
- Suggestions/tips/critique... anything.
I will have time for a very limited amount of testing so that's why I'm posting this random list here. Also, I've read some of this thread before but not a lot, so excuse me if I'm bringing up stuff that's been extensively discussed.
Thanks in advance!
@weaselface
I like the list a lot. Here are some answers to your questions and some additional thoughts:
- You may want to consider cutting back the Ancestral Vision Maindeck or relegating it to the sideboard for combo matchups, as by removing Innocent Blood you become more vulnerable to T1 threats like Mother of Runes and Goblin Lackey (which are very relevant threats).
- That said, I would opt to go with Ancestral Visions over Standstill because this deck is super grindy and Standstill can backfire on you--your opponent could be smart and wait until your hand is full, then crack an instant for themselves during your end step, requiring you to discard; or you don't have a mainland in play or other pre-existing threat. Standstill is too unpredictable in my opinion and people play against very well, not to mention it being a dead card against Goblins, Merfolk, and Death & Taxes.
-Maelstrom Pulse is a killer of Tokens, Jace, Elspeth, Smokestack, and lots of other relevant threats. Having that extra out in case you couldn't counter that threat to begin with can be a big relief.
- Ghastly vs. Innocent Blood - run 1-2 of GD and 2-3 of Innocent Blood, IMO.
- Whenever I build a sideboard I always wonder what decks I'll bring in the card for, which seems elementary, but is a good, solid practice. Specifically I wonder about the Shamans. Are they there more for acceleration against combo or for damage, which this deck doesn't do that well. Another Board Sweeper like Damnation may be a good call, meta-wise.
I still can't figure out why people are boarding in deathrite shaman in the pure control list... I really can't. If you wan't creatures with good utility, play Cliques and Confidants. Unless you're playing one of those weird MD DrShaman lists in which case, I don't get it.
Re Standstill vs. Visions: Neither of them get my vote but if you were to play one, play visions. People quickly remember how to play against standstill. Get innocent bloods back in your deck.
Re Pulse: Like Kyle said, Pulse is catch all to threats we couldn't deal with on the way down the most important of course, being jace. Nothing in the world feels worse than killing a jace with your own and being able to pulse a jace with pierce backup followed by your own wins most games.
Tons of tips on sideboarding over the last few pages, just read.
Visions > Standstill. People still occasionally play Aether Vials and Goblin Lackeys.
Innocent Blood/Ghastly Demise are still fine but Decay covers all your bases so well it should be your primary removal. Use other cards to target things that fall through the cracks. I still have a Pulse in my list, and went to 3 thoughtseize because Decay can't hit Jace, which is a huge point of contention in the mirror and against UW or Stoneforge. Are we really discussing Smokestack as a reason to play Pulse?
what is weird about a list with DrShaman?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikenbok
Beeing a midrange/grindy controllish BUG deck with the best creatures available is a different take on BUG control that is in my opinion better positioned than the full blown control version in an open meta.
in the "creatureless" version I don't see shaman as a sideboard card. bad GY hate? bad life gain? for acceleration - against which deck?
I got to do some testing yesterday:
- U/R Delver: Definately a good matchup. I think both games ended with Jace and Lilli on my side with like 10 life give or take and opponents hand empty.
- Goblins: It seemed I had to get max value from every card to keep up. No room for error but winnable nonetheless.
- Junk: Felt like a coinflip really. Very long drawn out games ending always in tdm. G1 must be a win or a quick scoop in a tournament.
Overall I really liked Vision, though I'm propably going to test without it too. Even when I drew it in mid-game I felt like I had to endure four more turns and then I win. The thing with Vision is I'm uncomfortable playing FoW with less than 20 blue cards, and even 20 has left me in trouble for quite a few times so I'm going for a bit more consistency this time around.
Also the amount of removal felt OK, but you guys might be right about Innocent Blood, so maybe I drop 1 GD, move Darkblast (which is sweet in so many matchups) to the SB and add a few IBs.
I wanted to try Deathrite Shaman as an all around sideboard tool. A little GY hate here, a little lifegain there, maybe some mana boost in the middle since I didn't want to commit a whole slot for the Burn matchup. But as it turned out he was not too impressive as many of you already knew so he's out. Maybe I'll bring Damnation or a Pulse back.
Other notes:
- 4 Jaces feels just the right number.
- Maybe it's a good idea to just dismiss the Burn matchup and go for Thoughtseizes only.
- It seems I never go for the kill with Mishras and the Tar Pit. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong.
I am starting to fall in love with this deck and would love some comments on my current build before trying it in a serious tourney.
The Deck:
Planeswalkers:
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil
Creatures:
2x Vendillion Clique
2x Snapcaster Mage
Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
2x Counterspell
4x Abrupt Decay
Sorceries:
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Life from the Loam
2x Ponder
1x Damnation
2x Innocent Blood
Enchantments:
1x The Abyss
1x Pernicious Deed
Land:
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Creeping Tar pit
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
Sideboard:
2x Crop Rotation
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Karakas
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Envelop
2x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Flusterstorm
1x Duress
1x Damnation
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Dread of Night
Comments? Suggestions?