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I want to go back to nudon's presented version with the Past in Flames package.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nudon
Maybe i don't see the catch, but in his list I can't find a carddraw to draw one of the Lion's eye diamond which was put on top of the deck with Memory's Journey.
Are you suppose to wait a turn?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
How is his stupid showing? If you play spoils g1 and you say exile your lab man while looking for something how do you win? Maybe you just didn't read spoils of the vault all the way through idk. Also if you are playing the cycler version to win what happens if you find your piece you need to win but are now at say, 3 or less life, now you risk losing to bolt or you can't cycle because now you die before you draw your card.
Anyway I top'8 in Portland last year and also won an IQ a few months back and took 9th on breaks last week at another IQ with the deck.
Someone noticed the ingot chewer and thought it was a typo and it isn't. I love the cerebus version of the deck but it can't beat a chalice of the void at 1 mana so that's why the chewer is there. That is essentially my free slot instead of say another summoner's pact, 4th therapy, or bridge.
Why so much hate for manamorphose? I don't get it, yes on very rare occasions the deck can sometimes draw itself out of a win but it happens so rarely it shouldn't matter.
And why the hate for the transformation SB, I saw in there someone commented that pact of negation was bad with it since you cant cast it if you are trying to use the belcher? While that's true if you are activating a diamond you won't be able to cast it but the only card you are worried about at that point is stifle and sometimes there is nothing you can do about regardless.
Someone also said its bad for game2, and while I disagree against an opponent who is non-force of will g2 I bring in both combos it isn't hard to do with SB properly.
I also don't get why all the different routes with living wish or the sutured ghoul, to me they just seem worse since it slows the deck down just a bit and now makes STP a card that actually beats you.
I think this deck is all about optimizing winning as fast as possible. I haven't really deviated from my lists much and while the deck doesn't have tons of success I think the lists I've played have had the most success overall. Barring a horrible loss vs lands...(ya it happens) I would have started out GP Jersey last year 7-0 but lost that match then proceeded to lose to merfolk due to absolutely terrible plays on my part and another deck with MD leylines the next round.
I'm always willing to listen to new ideas and try new things, but I do vehemently disagree with some peoples sentiments that that the cyclers and manamorphose are bad and that you can't rely on them to find your win cons, but the thing with this deck is that every turn you give your opponent you chance of losing goes up exponentially, sometimes you have to just push the envelop and go for it, you can't play this deck scared of you will just lose. For me any hand with say 4 mana, and 2 cyclers is an auto keep for me especially if I'm on the draw, or conversely any hand with a win con and 3 mana plus a cycler is good enough also.
As far as new cards I'm considering, I'm considering testing that new tutor in origins in place of my ingot chewer.
Hi again, so after some tweaks, I settled with this list, where there is no transformational sideboard, but
instead some anti-hate cards. Let me know what you guys think. This decision is largely based on budget,
and I am not thrilled about the belcher side, because I feel playing straight charchelcher is better than
the hybrid after SB.
25 Creatures
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Narcomoeba
1 Wild Cantor
4 Street Wraith
1 Underworld Cerberus
1 Laboratory Maniac
35 Spells
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Pact of Negation
3 Summoner's Pact
2 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
Sideboard
3 Autumn's Veil
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Nature's Claim
4 Guttural Response
Usually the spoils is in the sideboard when you transform into Belcher style deck withouth the Lab man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtorrez
JTorrez could you post you in and out to side in both combos against non fow deck ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by P-E
Sure thing,
+4 Belcher
+4 LED
-4 Ballustrade Spy
-1 Cabal Therapy (or a 2nd/3rd Git Probe)
-1 Ingot Chewer (or a 2nd/3rd Git Probe if they have chalice for 1 possibilities)
-1 Bridge from Below (or a 2nd/3rd Git Probe
-1 Git probe
I pretty much do this all game 2's if my opponent scoops before I can see what they are playing, also unless I know they are bringing in a lot of GY hate
Thx a lot for the sideboard tech
You don't Spoils of the Vault for anything other than Goblin Charbelcher, Empty the Warrens or Dark Ritual in case you already have your win condition in your hand, then entire point of playing a transformational SB is to SB out some or all of your original combo pieces so if you're turning Spoils of the Vault into a lose condition then you're just a moron.
I don't think people hate on Manamorphose, in a list without Living Wish then Manamorphose is the next best color-filtering spell and enables both your rituals and your discard so they have to counter it. The other cantrips like Gitaxian Probe and Street Wraith are just bad if they're forcing you to cut better cards for them, cantripping into your win conditions simply does not work and even the 8 win condition lists mulligan aggressively into their win condition.
I'm not sure what's difficult to understand about the Living Wish board, you have your win condition, Swamp, Pete Bog and then maybe a Gemstone Mine, City of Traitors or a Boseiju Who Shelters All. It's basically a mana efficient Mana Morphose by itself, but it doubles as 4 additional win conditions and enables Lion's Eye Diamond if you choose to play it.
Sutured Ghoul is the kill conditions which takes up the least amount of MD slots without being vulnerable to Emakrul, the Cereberus/Lab Maniac is the next kill condition which takes up the last amount of slots except you have to play with a Street Wraith in your deck. Personally I liked having stuff like Living Wish and 4 Cabal Therapy because I could Living Wish for Pete Pog and then go off with rituals and discard on my next turn. I think the actual kill condition is the least of this decks problems tho'.
Every thing there is to say about this deck has been said, at some point you'll just get tired of drawing 8+ dead cards and would rather play Belcher regardless of Pact of Negation since Chancellor of the Annex is pretty good in Belcher as disruption any way and you get to board into Blasts.
I can't remember whether or not I mentioned this before, but if you don't like either Livining Wish or Manamorphose then I think you could theoretically play Land Grant and a creature with Forest Cycling and try to tutor for a single Bayou in the deck, that was one of the very last tech choices I was experimenting with before I shelved the deck.
Are you talking about Dark Petition? What do you see taking out of your list for it and what would be some lines of play you would see it be good in? If not, which tutor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtorrez
More importantly how is it not obviously worse than Living Wish?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rishadan
In my list if I play it, it will replace the ingot chewer. As far as lines of play with it goes you need to be able to make 6 mana, 5 for the cast 1 floating and then 3 upon resolution for 4 mana then go get a win con piece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rishadan
The reason I just don't like the living wish build at all is that you are waiting a turn to go for the win. Effectively making the deck a turn 2+ combo deck and that to me is just terrible. The strongest reason to play this deck is because of it's high first turn win percentages, yes sometimes you just cantrip into nothing, but with 8 cantrips and way's to tutor out mana pieces (summoner's pact), the percentages add up albeit still small, but they add up to you hitting your win con piece.
To me if you are trying to assemble this combo on turn 2 or later, you're just wasting time and better off playing ANT since you can also reliably cast disruption in the form of discard.
Also the other version that makes the huge creature, you give your opponent more outs to beat you in the form of Sword's to Plowshares and that just seems terrible to me.
I've always seen this deck as go for the win turn 1 period, any hand with 4 mana and 2 cyclers I snap keep, any hand with 3 mana a creature and 1 or more cyclers I snap keep. If you are playing this deck "scared" in that you are trying to set up with things like land grant and living wish, trying to get there on turn 2, just play belcher or storm they do it better than oops.
Any one had any time testing out Reanimate in this deck?
I've been running a typical list, only I've been including a few Reanimate.
I'm not convinced it's a 4-of, but a couple might be useful.
My thought was that it's not only another black target for Mox, but it's another way for us to combo out potentially with a Therapy in hand, or even if it's simply as dumb as end-of-turn discard and Reanimate.
Thoughts?
Here's my basic list from memory, I might be wrong on numbers but I think this is it;
4x Balustrade Spy
1x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Chrome Mox
4x Dark Ritual (TMP)
1x Dread Return
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Laboratory Maniac
4x Lotus Petal (TMP)
4x Manamorphose
4x Narcomoeba
3x Pact of Negation
2x Reanimate
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Street Wraith
3x Summoner's Pact
1x Tinder Wall
4x Undercity Informer
1x Underworld Cerberus
1x Wild Cantor
It was tested, yes. Reanimate is mentioned on the first two pages of the thread, in fact. It was discarded just as quickly. The problem with Reanimate is that is doesn't do anything. This deck loses because of inconsistency and not enough initial mana sources, and postboard it also loses to graveyard hate. Reanimate solves none of these things. Also, if you have a Therapy and can make black, you should target your opponent and name Force of Will.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by ESG
I'll replace those Reanimate with Chancellor of the Annex or Chancellor of the Tangle or something else to try and boost my turn1 win chances.
BTW;
I've noticed a lot of lists run Wild Cantor, but a few also run Tinder Wall.
Personally I find having one of both pretty useful, but then I'm not running Living Wish.
Is running Wish the only reason for this, or is there more to it?
Also, has anyone tested with Overmaster?
Obviously it's not Silence or Xantid Swarm, but I couldn't help thinking this card being potentially one of either a cantrip, mox target or protection might be useful?
Try out Overmaster if you like, but it has some issues. Overmaster would protect Dark Ritual but wouldn't protect your Rogues. Chancellor of the Annex and Pact of Negation both seem superior. Also, Guttural Response has a more flexible casting cost and would be better to imprint if you had to imprint it. If you want more cantrips, more Street Wraiths is the way to go because at least they are black cards and free.
I don't know if I can address the Wild Cantor and Tinder Wall issue. My guess is that Tinder Wall facilitates the Charbelcher plan by netting you mana. Wild Cantor is the primary means of "washing" the mana to the color you want.
Hello, all!
This is my first post on The Source. I've been watching this thread for some time, and I wrote out (in a tipsy daze) a 4200-word... thing that covers my responses to/opinions about the prevailing trains of thought I've seen in the thread. I'm thinking that's quite a bit of information to digest, and in light of my lack of tournament experience, I've decided to spare everyone. As a bit of background, I live in The Woods, and I don't get to go to tournaments that often. But I've run a list pretty much identical to the one to follow twice at 8-man Legacy tournaments, and I've gotten second place both times. Here's my current decklist:
MAINDECK
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Summoner's Pact*
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Balustrade Spy
4x Undercity Informer
3x Narcomoeba*
2x Bridge from Below*
1x Underworld Cerberus
1x Laboratory Maniac
1x Dread Return
1x Wild Cantor
3x Gitaxian Probe*
3x Street Wraith*
2x Manamorphose*
4x Pact of Negation*
3x Cabal Therapy*
SIDEBOARD*
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Spoils of the Vault
1x Tinder Wall
1x Grim Monolith
1x Manamorphose
*These choices are open to contention. I'll try to explain them later, but ask away if you think anything's strange/curious/terrible/awesome/whatever.
My main questions revolve around the sideboard. I'm totally unsure of whether the one I listed is the best plan. I kicked around the anti-hate sideboard for a while, but it felt really inconsistent and difficult to pull off with our mana-base issues, so I haven't given it much thought. I've seen some lists with Empty the Warrens, but that's an absolute non-bo with Summoner's Pact. For a Belcher sideboard, I think having a full quad of LED, Belcher, and Spoils of the Vault is absolutely necessary. The deck's still not as consistent as the mainboard plan, even with four tutors. I feel like the Belcher sideboard is reasonably successful, but I'm not sold on its viability. I feel like transformational boards can do a lot of good, but the Belcher package feels like it's still really vulnerable and slower and less consistent than the maindeck plan. I've considered ideas for a beatdown/sandbag plan, but they all look significantly worse on paper than the orthodox Belcher build, so I've not taken them to tournaments. I'm thirsty for ideas, so say the word if you think of anything! A couple of quick questions:
-Stupid as it may sound, has anyone considered a Helm of Obedience plan against decks that throw down a Rest in Peace game 2? Could use opponents' graveyard-hosing against them, but it feels like a corner-case. There's always Leyline of the Void.
-I still haven't seen an explanation for Prosak's Recross the Paths/Doomsday build (http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ll-Spells.html). It looks like including Shelldock Isle conflicts with Recross the Paths's deck-stacking, but I haven't seen any third-party pro-style explanation for that package. Am I missing something, or did he just make a mistake?
-I've tried goldfishing some Belcher packages that include Recross the Paths x2 and Infernal Contract (potentially Meditate?) instead of more mana, but those didn't seem to really help that much.
I'm still searching for/trying to think of alternative plans for the sideboard because the Belcher board feels even jankier than our main-deck, but I'm hitting brick walls. Any thoughts?
I'd be up for discussing any of the maindeck choices, any omissions or inclusions, etc. if anyone's interested, but I'll reiterate that my tournament experience is limited.
Yeah I'm in the same boat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
I used the LED/Belcher/Seething Song/Spoils side just this week at the local.
Worked O.K. without being all that reliable against other fast combo or targeted hate/discard.
Ancient Stirrings will replace Song next time I go out, since at only 1cmc it could help find a combo piece or some mana.
Thoughts in this??
I'm gonna test out some mix of Vampire Hexmage, Dark Depths, Living Wish, maybe some Thespian's Stage?
In dunno, gonna have to mess with some numbers and see what works.
To be honest I'm not thinking this is a better idea than Belcher... just different, I'm just trying to think of combo's that work with green & black mana.
Bummer S-Pact is green creatures only...
I don't want to speak too soon, but you're definitely onto something.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
My gut is to avoid Living Wish at all costs. I think it gives a false sense of security when you'd be better off including the things for which it tutors in the main. Hexmage might be good, but I don't know right now; the double-B casting cost is a problem.
I'm looking at Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Sylvan Scrying, and Spoils of the Vault, and I'll report back after goldfishing in a bit if it shows some promise.
At first glance, pros:
-Lands can't be countered
-The tutors are about the last thing people will expect need countering
-Invalidates Mindbreak Trap
-Doesn't use the graveyard
-No increase in mana cost over the Rogues
-Looks like Depths might also fare better against discard
-You can include Pact of Negation without its being a totally dead card ever
-opponents definitely will not be expecting this
Cons:
-Wasteland
-Prosak wrote about the dangers of the Doomsday/Shelldock/Emrakul kill, and those and more apply here. StP comes to mind.
-Non-bo with Summoner's Pact
-Takes longer to get a kill than the rogues; idk about the comparison with a Belcher plan
Maybe I'm being optimistic, but this feels like a more consistent plan than Belcher, and it doesn't rely so heavily on the precious black mana to combo. I'm proxying this right now.
EDIT: I need to run some errands, but I've got my Sunday night in The Woods cut out for me. I also noticed that running 4 DarkD, 4 Thesp, 4 Sylvan, 3 Spoils gives us SEVEN tutors for our combo. More to come.
I've been goldfishing a sideboard that looks like this:
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Sylvan Scrying
3x Spoils of the Vault
Putting aside any other issues that might come up in a Real Game of Magic, I've noticed a couple of things. First of all, the mana cost of playing a tutor and activating a Thespian's Stage at the same time is not a simple hurdle, and often you need to find a way to do those things on sequential turns. This is made difficult because we have few initial mana sources. Most of the combos that result in a win with the deck (pre-board) rely on chaining mana rituals rather than on mass-exiling Spirit Guides, which means that we're going to need to find a ritual that can pay off a tutor AND Thespian's Stage's activation cost in the same turn to expedite our Marit Lage. This is difficult to do with green mana, so I'm inclined to say that Sylvan Scrying is less useful than Spoils of the Vault. An added problem is that Scrying is a Sorcery, meaning that we're telegraphing our plays pretty hard when we use it if we've already played a land for the turn. I also feel like I am drawing more tutors than wincons a fair bit of the time.
I'm wondering whether replacing Scrying with Crop Rotation might yield better results. That was my first idea, but I couldn't think of a way to make it work because the land count for the deck is really low. What about something like this?
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Spoils of the Vault
2x Bayou
1x Crop Rotation
I'll keep testing various iterations on the Thespian Depths plan, but it's not so straightforward as it looked at first glance. Ideas welcome!
EDIT: I revised the first part for clarity. I've been testing a 4-3 split of Spoils to Sylvan and it's looking a bit better. And Crop Rotation is a monster if we can make it work.