I was browsing and found this Pox-list going top16 at SCG Cincinnati
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11672
List looks solid, but what i really liked was the splash of green WITHOUT Life from the Loam.
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I was browsing and found this Pox-list going top16 at SCG Cincinnati
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11672
List looks solid, but what i really liked was the splash of green WITHOUT Life from the Loam.
i would like to understand his thought process on the singleton mox diamond..i hope someone can locate and coax him into explaining it in this forum..its an interesting choice, though i'm sure it will raise a lot of eyebrows..
In its defense, it does grab any Rituals, Burning Wish, Show and Tell, any non-land mana ramp, Goblin Lackey, Aether Vial, and any Counterspell. Force of Will got you down? Hymn to Tourach loves it. Every win card you've mentioned needs to be cheated into play using a 1-3 cmc spell and THAT'S where Inquisition lives.Quote:
Originally Posted by D0LPHY
You can NEVER have too many sac-effects vs. Metas with Tarmogoyf! :tongue: Though Reid Duke's explanation of why a good Legacy deck shouldn't have more than 5 cards dealing only with creatures is sound. I too run 3 Innocent Blood and 1 Spinning Darkness as my only cards in my whole deck that only deals with creatures. My game 1 vs. combo isn't auto-lose cause a ton of my cards are relevant. That and if you're only fighting people with 100% turn 1 kill combo decks, I'd have quit playing magic entirely. Turn 1 Dark Ritual + Inquisition + Hymn to Tourach happens more often than raw numbers would suggest. Personally, vs. combo, I'd go turn 1 Liliana first then Hymn them turn 2. You'd tear their hand down 4 cards if on the play which no combo deck can realistically recover from.
Again, if they go off turn 1 all the time, we're non-FoW decks, there's nothing to discuss sadly... :frown: But the nature of MtG is that those decks don't exist. There's a reason Threshold is the DtB forever and not Belcher or LED Dredge...
@ zenitramleirdag: I was thinking the same thing,it just looks a little bit... random. Same goes for Barren Moore and Tabernacle: without LotL it seems a bit little less powerful. I really would like to read his report and explanation for some of his choises. Either way, congrats with his finish!
About the discussion Seize vs all other 1-cmc: I think it really shines in a meta where you really want to grab high cmc-cards and you have a way to get some life back. To put it blankly, it's just a matter of preference and how you're meta looks like. I tried a build with 4 IoK and 3 Seize, without Hymn. It worked out really well, but I missed the possibility of hitting lands with Hymn.
I think that in the current meta OmniStrata is right and IoK does almost everything without the lifeloss.
Good point. Inquisition is probably better than I give it credit for. I've been burned too many times by being unable to hit the cards that really matter. I also dislike the fact that an Omni-tell pilot (for example) can Brainstorm in such a way as to leave no targets for Inquisition, essentially blanking it. Thoughtseize, as long as it resolves, never fails to disrupt. Your remark that threshold (I assume you mean RUG Delver?) is forever the deck to beat puzzles me. I feel like RUG Delver has lost most of its share in the format to midrange/other tempo strategies. I would certainly put Shardless BUG, Deathblade, Omni-tell, ANT, and probably UWR Delver before it in terms of representation in the field. Additionally, I've always found the matchup strongly favourable for Pox. What are your thoughts?Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Having too many sac-effects against a 'Goyf guarded by smaller creatures is exactly the problem. Abrupt Decay handles Tarmogoyf no matter what the context. I realize the green splash is a big change, but I really feel like anyone who hasn't thoroughly tested it should. Don't net-deck a Loam-Pox build, just switch out Innocent Bloods for Abrupt Decays, squeeze in some Sylvan Libraries (I recommend 3), and adjust the manabase accordingly. Once you've had Abrupt Decay at your disposal, you'll never look back.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Chatto, I share your sentiment that splashing green shouldn't always entail running Life from the Loam. However, this list runs 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
You are so right, i wasn't paying good attention... Stupid me :rolleyes:... Still, I advocate splashing green without LftLQuote:
Originally Posted by D0LPHY
RUG Delver has always been in the DtB forums and always makes it to Top 8 in larger tournaments at least once. If you look at how it's built, it makes sense since it just runs the best cards in Legacy. RUG Delver Threshold runs the best cards in its colors and each individual card is bone breaking by themselves. Thankfully, as a Pox player, that means we only need to hit a few resources at a time. Most decks I fight view efficiency as needing less land, less creatures to win, and lesser hand sizes. I think that works since free spells and low cmc power hitters are totally overpowered.Quote:
Originally Posted by D0LPHY
Additionally, I used to run Loam Pox. Then I took a Nimble Mongoose and Mother of Runes to the knees. Abrupt Decay for me was used more for killing things like Pithing Needle, Counterbalance, Vial, and other enchantments/artifacts. Unless I'm fighting something very strange like Aether Vial Zoo :tongue: Cursed Scroll will zap sac fodder and I will hit the Goyf. Then of course, there's Perish, which is auto win usually in the face of fast Goyf hordes.
After a while, I realized that Pox's inability to deal with Artifacts and Enchantments isn't much of a game breaker and it's impossible for me to find perfect consistency with a Splashed Pox. That and it'd raise my deck budget to an insane degree and being almost totally immune to Wastelands is a gigantic bonus in developed greedy mana metas. Loving my 12 Snow-covered Swamps mana base.
I just got a Lifebane Zombie from the Magic Celebration free draft and I gotta say... HOLY SHAT! This sideboarded card rocks decks that get Sinkholed turn two and hits really hard. The fact that it does something after being cast is huge. Black exile? really? :cool: If only it had flash...
Snowcovered lands, et tu Brute?:cool:
How about this for zombie deck?
4 Geralf's messenger
4 Gravecrawler
4 lifebane zombie
4 gangrenous zombies
4 stillmoon cavalier
4 bloodghast
2 unearth
4 smallpox
4 hymn to Tourach
4 dark Ritual
3 pox
3 darkblast
20 snow-covered swamp
withering wisps would be cool(no pun intended) in an all-snow-covered swamps theme..in flavor at least..
I would have mentioned it if I had not forgotten the name...
i know, took me about a minute to remember the name of the card before i typed that post.. :wink:
I've been trying to get back into magic for awhile and it took me a few months to decide what i wanted to build.
I decided on pox because it's budget, it's rogue, and it has a lot of capability for manipulation the main deck depending on the meta.
After knocking cards back and forth with my buddy, we decided on a split control method with land destruction and discard.
Let me know what you think of this deck list: (I call the deck Malevolent Mishra (or M&M's) because all it's win conditions are mishra's creations)
Mainboard:
4x Ankh of Mishra
4x Blight
4x Dark Ritual
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Innocent Blood
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Raven's Crime
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
11x Swamp
4x The Rack
2x trinisphere
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x ghost quarter
Sideboard:
2x duress
3x Dystopia
3x Geth's Verdict
3x Infest
4x Leyline of the Void
Reasoning behind certain choices:
Win conditions and interactions:
ankh of mishra:
This is a win condition as much as its a control. if it's out, take 2 from laying a land, it makes people receive 5 damage from fetching a land, or stifling decisions by holding a land.
This is also why I am running Ghost Quarter, because i can then either have them take 2 from ankh if they search for a basic, or in legacy very few decks have many basics if any, so it's pretty much a wasteland.
Blight and Sinkhole alongside ghost to do land destruction.
The Rack:
This is good all depending on the the discard that's drawn.
I prefer this over the creature run pox win conditions(this deck doesn't run creatures besides mishra's factory) because it's continuous, it's hard to get rid of, and it makes them hold cards if they don't want to get hit by rack, making it easier to get hit by more discard.
mishra's factory:
fights creatures, isn't hit by innocent blood or other creature hate that isn't instant speed, good stuff.
trinisphere:
I figured running this over liliana of the veil because it just makes the Land destruction as well as the discard just better.
Sideboard:
Dystopia against leyline of sanctity
Infest against swarm/tribal decks
Geth's Verdict for more creature hate
Duress for more discard against combo decks
Leyline of the void against dredge/reanimator
I hate to be that guy, but Pox is not budget. This is one of the most common misconceptions about the deck, and it arises from the fact that Pox is such a rogue presence in the format that new/potential Pox players simply don't have enough lists to compare to get a sense of what is viable. Our share in the metagame is extremely small, so the few occasions on which Pox has done well are typically a combination of luck, play-skill and the rogue factor rather than a particular list's merits. Additionally, mono-black Pox is an anachronism, and I can't recommend opting to play a second-rate version of an already 'rogue' deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by hugh4893
Let alone the fact that you need to be running green for Abrupt Decay (and will need 4 Bayou and 4+ fetchlands), a playable mono-black list requires at minimum a playset of each Wasteland, Liliana of the Veil, Sinkhole, and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, not to mention some number of Crucible of Worlds, Sensei's Divining Top, Nether Void (I'd run 2), Thoughtseize, etc. Again, Pox is a shaky enough archetype as is; you'll only do yourself a disservice running a weakened version of it.
Having said all that, let's take a look at your list.
I don't think it makes much sense to run Raven's Crime without Life from the Loam, since the card is fairly unimpressive without recursion. I would max out Inquisition of Kozilek first. Run all four Factories. The card is our most resilient win condition, and its ability to block is crucial. I would also run 2 Crucible of Worlds. You're already running Ghost Quarter, and Crucible shares great synergy with Mishra's Factory. You should also consider running more lands. I run 25 (in a 61-card deck), and find that to be just enough to be able to Smallpox aggressively. Ankh of Mishra seems like a funny choice; our life total is quite sensitive, while theirs is really irrelevant until we're in a position to start winning. As with any control deck, stabilizing is more important than dealing damage. There's a reason Pox has fallen out of favour. Additionally, Blight is really bad. Sinkhole is just good enough for Legacy; you don't want to let your opponents get another use out of a land you've already spent a spell 'destroying'. The inclusion of Blight and the second Ghost Quarter, as well as the low land-count, are plain symptoms of trying to run Pox without Wasteland. Make them your first big purchase for the deck. Trinisphere is nice, but it's no substitute for Nether Void. Trinisphere doesn't interfere with an opponent's ability to land larger threats, recur Batterskull, drop Jace at an opportune moment, etc. It's important to tax the big spells too.
I'm glad you've chosen Pox; it's a unique and enjoyable deck. Start playing what you've got, get hooked, and start saving!
I am of another opinion on most what D0LPH says. I will not, however, say much on that but rather focus on the deck.
Ankh of Mishra. Wonderful card. It is not a win con however. It is a LOCK PIECE.
As such it works well with land destruction (sorry for the understatement, but I ran out of superlatives).
Since you play land before the ankh you will always be 2 life ahead of your opponent. This is a minor but important detail. Sinkhole are a must, wastelands too.
Another must is moxes and/or dark rituals.
I figure Trinisphere would work wonderfully in this deck. Trying to reach three mana to play spells with an Ankh in play, through the LD, will be hard.
Given the ankh plan the win cons need be recurring creatures and something that does not rely on the graveyard (so as to have a back up plan. Phyrexian totem perhaps?)
A.N.K.H.
This is just a draft:wink:
1 Nether Spirit
1 Akuta, Born of Ash
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Pox
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Trinisphere
3 Mox Diamond
2 Phyrexian Totem
11 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
i don't think 19 lands can accomodate 3 mox diamonds, technically, there's only 15 lands in that build because most players don't count the wastelands as lands but rather as LD spells..to begin with, i'm not sure if you even need the diamonds since that list also runs rituals..i would drop the diamonds altogether and replace them with mishra's factories..
ankh of mishra is a cute and interesting choice and could probably win you a few games but its not by any means the most optimal pick for that slot..if its continuous source of damage you want, i'd look into cursed scrolls..there's a reason that almost all competitive pox lists run it..
trinisphere is a good replacement for nether void, its just not as good..but can help against a lot of decks..i just wouldn't advise running 4..
phyrexian totem used to be good, but i'd rather have that spot for singleton crucible of worlds and free up a flex spot..
i apologize if i seem to be leading the deck to a different direction..i do see what you're going for here with the ankhs and trinispheres to lock the opponent out of the game..and use the diamonds and the the totems to offset it..
these are just my 2-cents..
i do however feel intrigued with the singleton Akuta, Born of Ash..
As i noted it is just a draft. Untested, unplayed, and goldfish not well at all:laugh:
However, I have used Ankhs to great effect over a year back in a traditional pox build. My hapless opponent ran zoo, but it did him no good.
I would like to have more threats in it, true. But no big deal. The important things is Trinisphere + Ankh. The day I put it together I would fine tune it of course. For example, I think liliana should be in it the list.
+1 for this whole post. Solid adviceQuote:
Originally Posted by D0LPHY
Thankyou. I think anhk does work in the legacy meta with everyone running fetches and dual lands. Trinisphere and land destruction with ankh just work, it's just a really odd multiple condition control deck with the pox discard in the mix, but it's so off-handed the opponent will be caught off guard and you may win against the meta with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I am still fine tuning my list above, but i'm glad someone see's the combination and what it can mean for unsuspecting opponents expecting to just fetch for all their 3 colors they need when they take 5 damage from fetching, they can't cast anything from trinisphere, and you kill their lands with sinkholes and other LD to lock them out when you swing away with mishra's. then you throw discard in the mix and any strategy will have a hard time being resilient.