If you were worried about them shrinking lord ape you could always play skyshroud elite. 1/1 gets +1/+2 if opponent controls a nonbasicQuote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
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If you were worried about them shrinking lord ape you could always play skyshroud elite. 1/1 gets +1/+2 if opponent controls a nonbasicQuote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Any thoughts on the list that got 2nd at the SCG open this weekend? It was 2 snare 2 pierce 2 probe for the flex slots, but replaced the stifles with 3 chain lightning and a true name.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=71440
I've toyed with jamming some chain lightnings but I don't think I could give up stifle.
I like this line of thinking very much. :))Quote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
Poxy, I was surprised when I saw you swinging with Kird Apes, but I can't seem to let go of stifle or my spell pierces. My builds have always carried less burn than yours. :)
I honestly don't see how a vanillia 2/3 for R is better than a shrouded 3/3 for G, but the latter does come down much later than the sooner. My metagame would never warrant the more aggro Ape build, since we have way too many Miracles and other Delver decks (specifically Patriot, where Mongoose shines).
some weeks back when u top'ed with rug and i finished 4 short of accompanying you in the top slots...i was carrying a 3 stifle built rug..and somehow it worked..the blue zoo experiment i played last wkend shows the effect of me being scouted to always carry stifles...and them avoiding it...making it advantageous on my side coz i felt im always ahead in the board with multiple 1drops...and vs stock rug, always being ahead of life with apes vs nonthreshed geese...this is just however..an experiment..on a large scale tourney i would always carry my stifles..and goose to ape will never be a comparison when it comes battling miracles..removal.decs...but i do think with a heavier count on the crit side...blue zoo has more aggro game...Quote:
Originally Posted by kyreii
before the start of the tourney also, we ve play tested vs team mate bert..carrying a real shitload of removals and hate..(pox with 4main wastenots)..my stock rug had a hard time beating this deck...mongoose has no shroud vs it...vs blue zoo...be had a turn 1 darkrit-lotv that resolved...three turns still i was able to comeback and turn things around with consistent draws of apes and grims and insects...stifle plays a major role vs pws.. but from the tests im running..it seems its the aggressive type of rug built available...and proved it can matchup vs unfair too as i was able to win vs reanimators and snt...not tested yet though vs storms where stifle is king..
i like the 7 bolt built that finished 2 in the last scg..but then again, instead of chains..ill replace it with tarfires for more eot action!
Nice list! I played a similar list this past weekend and came in first place. Glad to see someone else using apes over goose. I get lots of weird reactions when people see ape. Mongoose is a great creature don't get me wrong, but a creature heavy meta, I'd rather go more aggro and beat with apes. People say ape dies, and I always tell them I'm happy to see ape eat a removal spell because that's one less removal for delver and goyf :)Quote:
Originally Posted by poxy14
My only changes to your list are 4 apes, 2 g. lavamancers, 3 chain lightnings, 2 fire/ice, no tarfire, and 3 wasteland and 9 fetches. My sb i threw together without testing:
2 pithing needle/ 2 sulfuric vortex/ 2 sulfur elemental/ 2 ancient grudge/2 pyroblast/ 2 submerge/ 1 grafdigger's cage/ 1 scavenging ooze/1 swan song
Thoughts on deck:
fire/ice seems underwhelming as my creature matchup is already great with so much burn so no need for more burn. Icing seems fine which I used against a sneak attack opponent during his upkeep. I'm leaning towards cutting them and maybe trying tnn. I figure a creature heavy meta warrants apes inclusion significantly as a 1/1 mongoose can be too fragile to attack. Plus, not playing goose allows grim lavamancer md which can win goyf wars.
Finished fourth today with stock 54RUG+2SS+2SP+2FB list. I was thinking of some other configuration, but then I was lazy to do anything. Also, my sleeving skills suck now when I use triple protection.
R1 Tom, Burn:
I lost G1 after a qucik double Guide while being on the draw starting with five. Yeah...
G2 was about my fast double Delver. I was firmly sitting on 10 life, then I tapped for Rough with a Waste and was punished by PoP for eight. After the thing resolved, we realised that my opponent has one life an on fetch in play.
I thrown away Goyf in G3 after I overly thought about Searing Blaze and let it resolve wit ha grave of lands and instants. Of course i got a Daze for it. Double Mongoose went the distance, but I finished on 4 life.
sb: in Flusterstorms, Roughs; out one Stifle, one FoW, one Wasteland, one wutnot.
Win, 1:0.
R2, Petr, Storm
For G1 I opened a hand with double Wasteland an some blue stuff, kept it thinking I'm against UWR. Sadly, I wasn't I lost this one.
I'm not sure what happened in G2, but I won at eighteen, so it seems like Petr bricked.
G3 was pretty intense, and I sat on one land and handful of countermagic, then I drawn a Foothills (commented by Pavel - datanaga on Source - as "this is gamebreaking draw"). I played Delver, drawn into more permission, Wasted an USea turn after I layed down Cage, and when Petr went for a Natural Fair Trade Tendrils, I had everything and Stifle plus Flus.
sb: in Flusterstorms, REBs, Cages, Rough(s)?; out FBs, 4 Mongooses, maybe something else, one Waste?
Win, 2:0.
R3, Igor, bUrg
I expected Merfolk, but this was a bit better. I still lost both G1 and G2 mostly to mulligans, mana/colorscrew, RUG's inferior CQ and AD's uncounterability. Igor also plays really well. The only thing I accomplisehd was hitting a Delver and SCM with one FB, but yeah, it was too little too much too late
sb: in Submerges, Pyroblasts; out FoWs and Spell Snare
Loss, 2:1
R4, Lukáš, Jund
What a way how to finish the day: Lukáš sat for the whole (very short) G1 on two fetches after his turn1 TS showed him double Stifle and his sole Bayou was wasted. G2 he led with Forest->DRS wich I Needled. Few turns later I roguhed a pair of Shamans away as I was pretty annoaed by squire-aggro, then his LftL played of Forest and Waste gave him back a sole fetch he got in gy. I wasted his Waste, stifled his fetch and he lost on one Forest.
sb: in Submerges, Needles, Roughs and artifact hate; out Fows and Dazes. I know that Dazes are questionable, oth they lose strength pretty fast, and all the other options are better, even Stifle.
Win, 3:1.
It was a nice tournament. I asked Igor and Svačinka on their shared opinion on their shared bUrg in case I'd find strength, will and money to build it. For now I'll stay true to RUG for many many reasons (about 12 000 Czech Cash Reasons), but I got itches.
MVP: well, today it was really hard to tell. Stifle maybe? It was important in Storm match, it was pretty brutal in last match.
Btw, I'm using still the same sideboard:
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
edit:
There were 20 ppl on final standings (and I think nobody dropped during the event), with top4 consisting of Infect/unknown deck with 12 points and Igor's bUrg / yours very with 9 points.
I'd love to give you a metagame break, but it's not like this FNM-esque Thursday matters, moreover I don't know every deck, but w/e:
Infect
identity unknown
bUrg (Igor, as you know)
RUG
ANT (Slosh, the only other Sourcer)
Post (idk the version)
identity unknown
Jund (my R4 opponent)
12 Post/Turbo Eldrazi (I'm not sure if there's any dfference)
Burn (R1 opponent)
identity unknown
ANT (R2 opponent)
bUrg (piloted by Svačinka, the Greedy Trader)
identity unknown
identity unknown
identity unknown
identity unknown
Jund, I guess (a buddy of mine who often plays Jund)
identity unknown
I was wondering how RUG deals with Forgemaster MUD. Their threats are just better than ours and my counters slowly get drawn out by their lockdown pieces (chalice/trinisphere) before I die to wurmcoils or blightsteel/steel hellkite/sundering titan via forgemaster. Haven't been able to win against a local player so far.
Frankly, it makes 1 % of meta, I either wouldn't even try, or maybe find another deck that would work better if your field is too hostile.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyreii
You may try Pithing Needle against the Forgemasters, Wastelands are pretty as is fast Goyf. You got Ancient Grudge for their lock pieces or threats, Artifact Mutation is brutal when it hits the right target, Wurmcoils must be FoWed (hard to do with Cavern, but you already know that) or you may somehow kill them and than Stifle the trigger. Pierce and Snare hits the CotV on stack. Stifling the search might be pretty good, he'll be three artifacts down with a tapped potential blocker. Also, I guess Mongoose sucks here, while Clique might be good. Forgemaster is pretty bad against Cage.
base sb:
2 Rough//Tumble
2 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1-2 Flusterstorm
1-2 Grafdigger's Cage
1-2 Pithing Needle
... then these are your eight to ten basic cards covering most of the matchups, Rough for any hordes (Elves, Goblins, DnT), Submerge for the mirror-like matchups and any Tombstalker.dec, Pyroblasts because we play Legacy, Cage against any graveyard deck, GSZ and once again the elves, then a duo of Needles to answer any Liliana, Vial, Port or w/e else. This leaves you with at least five slots that you may tweak to get the best results against youe MUD archnemesis. Some ideas are in these two posts by wcm8:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post719056
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post719057
If you really wanna win against MUD, look no furhter than this sb:
2 Grafdigger's Cage (kinda stops Forgemaster)
2 Pithing Needle (stops him completely)
2 Artifact Mutation (yeah)
2 Ancient Grudge (yeah)
1 Trygon Predator (yeah!)
2 Submerge (bad, but you need them)
2 Rough (ditto)
2 Pyroblast (ditto)
Thanks! I run RUG 54 -1 stifle, +2 pithing, +1 forked bolt, +2 spell pierce, +2 probe. In my sideboard, I pack 1 ancient grudge and 1 destructive revelry, but Artifact Mutation may be a better answer. Given the rise of Team America in our local meta, I might have to up the submerge count to three or pack dismembers again since Tombstalkers and their Goyfs are such a beating.
I'm considering removing the gitaxian probes for spell snares, a dismember, or a forked bolt.
RUG doesn't deal with Forgemaster MUD. I had a friend who played that deck for a while and to say the least it's a horrible match up. I would say it's the worst match up period. Out of something like 16 games I won maybe 2 mostly from wastelanding him before he got lock down pieces. They have something like 12 cards that win on site and come down turn 1 or 2. Just like Bed Decks Palyer said ignore it as almost no one plays the deck and chalk it up to bad luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by kyreii
MUD is a bad matchup, of course. But it's definitely manageable. You have Spell Pierce and Daze live on the play, and Force of Will on the draw. Wasteland for their awful manabase, and removal to Metalworker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Contract Killer
Postboard, you can bring better stuff like Artifact Mutation and Ancient Grudge (as well as Spell Pierces, if you SB them).
I've won plenty of times on the play when I play Delver T1, he plays 3 mana into Trinisphere, I let it resolve, then Waste his Ancient Tomb in my second turn and ride Delver to victory.
But yeah, sometimes Chalice @1 comes first, and you just lose.
Well, in my opinion this matchup isn't completely lost, although it's definitely really really hard. I'd say winning two out of the five matches is possible, but it really depends on your sb and on how you play, and how you approach the mu.
You definitely need to go as aggro as possible, because you'll be overrun without much trouble.
I'd keep Bolts for Metalworker, Snare and Pierces for lock pieces, Stifle to protect from Wastelands and randomly laugh at a "gamebreaking" Frogemaster's activation, then I'd add as many anti-artifact cards as possible, suplemented by Needle and whatnot.
I won quite some games against he deck, and in fact it's winnable. MUD is inconsistent pile of broken yet expensive stuff, you may outplay them with lots of tricks, they cannot fight on stack, etc. Also, if you're really that desperate, you may always go berserk and simply overload your sb (and even md) with hate, be it several Ancient Grudges or Artifact Mutation (I guess mutating some cmc7+ monstrosity they'd pull out of their deck for the cost of three artifacts should be pretty funny play) and of course Trygon Predator.
Idk, imho the matchup isn't worthy the trouble, but then again it's so easily hated out it's not even funny.
Yeah, they someties got their "CotV go, Trini go, WCE go" starts one cannot win against, but quite often they're stuck with nothing after you Bolt the Worker and Waste the Sol land. also, I won lots of games by simply playing the Goyf and then riding him down down down before they were able to do anything, becasue their manabase is awful and Goyf is quite usually 5/6 on turn3.
Honestly, if not for the WCE, this would be pretty easier, but their lifegain and deathtouch is what I find the most annoying.
Artifact mutation randomly blows games open in the match up. Cool platinum emperion I'll just have 8 tokens. It even works on blightsteel. Sure they keep the dude but you get 12 power on board and can just block 2 infect.
I also just Like it against any batter skull.dec
so if you wanted to improve that match up, without wasting slots I would shift all your artifact hate to mutations
I think you need Grudges for the many lock pieces and "win now" cards he'll play. Maybe a split of 2/1 Mutation/Grudge is fine, you'll have Mutations for the big targets and reusable Grudge for CotV/Trini/Lodestone or anything else not worthy to mutate. Maybe even 2/2 split, but this is far too extreme.Quote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
I'm currently on 1/1 and a Krosan grip (for miracles) and I agree I would never really want more then 3 total.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Thisialso what I thought about, as KGrip seems good because of CB. It's not the best against MUD (or any other fast deck with Wastelands), but it's still better than nothing, especially on the rare occasions when they got CotV:2 that stops your removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
I think I'll stick with 1 Artifact Mutation, 1 Ancient Grudge, but it does put me in the awkward position of not having any enchantment hate.
SB so far:
3 Submerge (BUG decks have been on the rise)
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental (might get cut, I haven't run into any maverick/DnT deck so far, but they exist)
1 Zuran Orb (because I don't want to lose to burn. Might get cut)
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Forked Bolt
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Ancient Grudge
Two flexi slots in my SB for Krosan Grip. Zuran Orb might be the first to go though since I'm supposed to be able to win that matchup based on skill, but I hate losing to random burn.dec
never leave house without any anti enchantments...yesterday my Drevelry connected twice...vs rip and a bloodmoon..Quote:
Originally Posted by kyreii
and since youre carrying the probing needle built...u already have main deck hate vs artifacts...
So I incinerated my collection (Elves and Melira Pod), to build RUG Delver, since I’ve had some success with it in the past and am trying to get ready for the upcoming GP in New Jersey. Anyways, I only own 3 Goyf and am not sure I’ll be able to borrow/buy a 4th. I’m wondering what you guys think the best option for the 12th creature would be, if at all. I’ve seen some lists running 4 Probe and 11 creatures on MTGO.
I’m currently running 3 Probe, 3 Stifle, 3 Pierce, and 1 Forked Bolt as the flex slots of the deck.
Creatures I'm considering main:
Scavenging Ooze
Grim Lavamancer
True Name Nemesis
Vendilion Clique
Any thoughts on which, would be apprecaited. I could go into reasons for each, but they are all pretty obvious.
Thanks,
Steve