Watch the twitch archive if it's still available, we talk through sideboading strategies, though with a slightly different list from the typical one that everyone seems to be playing.
https://www.twitch.tv/originaloestrus/v/110793909
Printable View
Watch the twitch archive if it's still available, we talk through sideboading strategies, though with a slightly different list from the typical one that everyone seems to be playing.
https://www.twitch.tv/originaloestrus/v/110793909
The OP said "Exhume – this does not target, so it can get around Surgical Extraction or Deathrite Shaman. See above section."
Can someone unpack this for me. I'm not sure what this means.
Thanks.
Cast Exhume with two creatures in graveyard -> Opponent can only eat one with DRS or Surgical -> you get the other creature
Cast Exhume -> DRS or Surgical takes your only creatures -> after that resolves, with Exhume still on the stack, cast Entomb for another creature -> Exhume resolves, getting you the creature you Entombed for.
What list are you running? Elements of the list are tight, but there seems to be a lot of diversity in choice and number of non-Griselbrand reanimation targets. And some reanimation spells are worse than others depending on what you're playing against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakhai84
What kind of decks do you expect to play? Are you looking to wade into MTGO play or do you play primarily in a (possibly wonky) local meta?
I can't write a SB guide for you, but answers to these question might help others respond to you.
In my experience, some number of the non-Griselbrand creatures, Animate Dead or Exhume, and discard can be sided out without too much trouble depending on the match up and what you expect your opponent to do. Those are the first cards I look at when trying to figure out what to cut. Like, sometimes you're playing against a deck that can't interact with the combo so you don't necessarily need x4 Chancellor of the Annex to protect it. Sometimes you don't want them to get a big ole fatty when you combo off so you don't want x4 Exhume. Sometimes x1 (instead of x4 if you're one of those degenerates) Sire of Insanity is just fine. All this to say: I think there is more flexibility in sideboarding than you suggest.
I will say I rarely make all of the same sideboard decisions against the same deck. I'm more of a rock n' roller when I play (i.e. that's my bourbon drinkin time.)
I do like DNSolver's suggestion that the sideboard be comprised of "3-4 of" cards that help you get around your bad bad match ups and I will probably be adopting that going forward.
My Tournament Report for the GP includes a link to this spreadsheet with my sideboard guide for the GP in it. If you read the report you'll see where I would make changes to it going forward, but on the whole I was super happy with the board.
This is essentially what I've done. I have two large packages (Blood Moon and Show and Tell) and then some varied reanimation targets I still had room for. I probably don't need all of them because they're just slight upgrades on maindeck effects, but I've not found that I need those slots for anything else so I'll take it.Quote:
Originally Posted by menloe
This weekend I'll write up a quick tournament report from the GP as well as a decklist and my sideboarding guide. I am on the white splash for my sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_UNLIMITED
Thanks for the report! I don't understand this part though:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
How is Faithless Looting bad in general? And why does it cause disadvantage against Delver? It's a discard outlet combined with card draw, which is fantastic. I'm always happy to see it in my hand (especially if I already have a fatty in my hand). The fact that it has flashback has also gotten me out of situations where I was stuck top decking.Quote:
My biggest takeaway from the event was how bad Faithless Looting was for me all day. I was already boarding it out against Delver decks because those decks are prepared to trade 1 for 1 with you all day, and the card disadvantage was adding up too quickly for me to interact.
Against Delver decks, they want to trade 1 for 1 with you. Faithless Looting puts you down on cards against them when you're trying to resolve a reanimation spell. Down on cards, it can be hard to find a black spell to pitch to Unmask, or enough mana to cast Brutality/Thoughtseize and Exhume in the same turn. It's a discard outlet, and that's great, but it's still card disadvantage. For the most part, we want to ignore that because we want to overwhelm our opponent quickly. If we have 1 card in hand and they have 6, but they can only cast 1, then it doesn't matter that we're down on cards due to looting. The problem is that against Delver specifically, they can often cast 3 or 4 cards in their hand, even as early as turn 1. At that point, not having enough cards to answer theirs is a big downside. And it doesn't just have to be additional discard spells: just drawing lands does a great job of countering Daze and Pierce. But when you're discarding lands to looting in order to hold on to reanimation spells, you can't necessarily do that.
Flashback definitely does get you out of situations where you're stuck topdecking, but my argument is that with a better spell than faithless looting in that slot you might not be stuck topdecking in the first place. This is all based on around 40 or 50 games of testing, though, which is a very small sample size in the grand scheme of things. I first got the idea to do it when I realized after about 20 games against Grixis Delver that I was losing basically every game where I drew more than 1 looting, and most of the games where I drew any at all, and that the games I was winning were the ones where I never saw it. I figured it was worth a try cutting it and my win percentage went up immediately.
If it were just that, I'd keep it in the maindeck, side it out vs Delver, and be fine with it, but the liability that comes from casting it into surgical is a huge downside IMO. If I can't use it as a setup spell to prepare because I need to protect my creatures from surgical extraction, then it's a really disappointing card. I'd rather have more density of the effects I actually want than a subpar digging spell.
I'm gonna keep testing without it and we'll see what happens. I don't expect everyone to just cut it immediately because I say so, but take a look at your graveyard when you lose against Delver and think about what's sitting there.
I'm having a similar discussion in the Maverick forum. I run an Enlightened Tutor package in the side, which makes it very easy to slot out a main deck package (SFM+equipment, P-Fire+Grove) that is dead in a particular match up for E. Tutor+Very Specific Hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
It's very helpful to have these discrete, somewhat interchangeable packages. It makes sideboarding a lot easier... which is helpful because, typically and as I have indicated previously, sideboarding is a piano I play by ear. Sometimes disastrously.
Not sure I agree on that assessment of Looting vs Delver, though I've not played this deck a huge amount yet, far less than you have. I do play Delver a lot though.
In the very literal meaning of card dis/advantage, yes Looting will put you down until you flash it back. But given the deck, if you discard a fatty I think it's better to look at Looting as card neutral. You're not beating Delver by keeping on card parity with them, you're beating them by brute force (at least, that's how I feel when playing with both decks). There probably is a build with a slightly higher land count and lots of Brutality in the main, maybe 3-4 so you can keep the pressure off? I wonder if that's the axis you want to be fighting Delver on though. I have Grixis built on modo, if you'd like to test the MU feel free to shoot me a message!
I agree that you're beating Delver by Brute Force, but Faithless Looting is rarely a part of any Brute Force hand. You push your way through their hand by overwhelming Daze and Pierce with Ritual and Petal, and you often need Unmask + a black card as well. That takes a lot of actual cards to pull off, and they're prepared to punish you for not playing with a full hand. My postboard configuration against Delver, with no looting, is able to be much more aggressive at trying to win than a looting hand, especially one that's hoping looting finds part of the combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
And remember, against Delver decks, binning a fatty isn't always a positive thing. If you're not immediately prepared to combo off, now it's much more vulnerable to deathrite or surgical than it is in your hand. If you're on the draw and they lead on turn 1 deathrite, and you have a hand of Land, Land, Faithless Looting, Griselbrand, Unmask, Thoughtseize, Exhume, you need a really, really good t1 looting to be in the game. You basically have to draw Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual or Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal. If you don't do that, then what do you discard? If you draw more fatties then you can discard two and hope your Exhume doesn't get dazed the next turn or that they don't also have surgical extraction. Otherwise you're probably stuck binning your unmask, which sucks because you really want to cast it.
So you lead on the looting, don't draw double petal. You have a Badlands in play, which your opponent can wasteland. You have Griselbrand, Land, Unmask, Thoughtseize, Exhume, and let's say Faithless Looting and Collective Brutality in hand. Now what do you discard? Obviously you keep the Exhume, the Brutality, and the Land, which means Thoughtseize, Unmask, Griselbrand, and Looting are your potential discards. You can discard the second Looting, but if your opponent has wasteland you'll want it. You can discard the griselbrand, but it will get eaten. You can discard your discard spells, but you need them to fight through the rest of the delver player's hand. In this case I'd probably discard the looting and the unmask and pray I don't get wastelanded. Then I can run the Brutality into their daze and hope they don't have it to kill the deathrite, but I can't discard the Griselbrand to the Brutality either because deathrite eats it.
My point, which I'm probably way overdoing here, is that you need a lot of resources to beat Delver. They have so many free spells they can cast to interact with you, so just going off before they can establish themselves isn't as good of a strategy as it is against Miracles or Death and Taxes or whatnot. And obviously there are faithless looting hands that utterly demolish delver. I'm not saying you can't beat them with it. I'm just saying that hands like the one I describe are far more typical than I would like. And that hand, which has a turn 2 combo with protection, couldn't beat a turn 1 Deathrite followed by Daze. Not exactly the highest of bars.
I appreciate the offer to test but the monoblack version I tested last night and was happy with plays 2 Liliana in the main, and I don't have $200 to buy them online at the moment. If I get it built to test I'll hit you up though. The only way I'll ever really convince people of this is by having success with it :)
I'm playing GP Louisville finalist's decklist but with 14 lands instead of 12 lands and 2 Chrome Mox.Quote:
Originally Posted by menloe
I only play paper magic here in my city at local events and big leagues. Our meta is a mix : Miracles, BUG, Grixis Delver, DnT, Eldrazi and Show and Tell.deck.
I've seen DNSolver's video on twitch and I've been really impressed by Jin-Gitaxias. His ability of drawing 7 cards at the end of the turn makes me want to try him instead of Sire of Insanity. Drawing 7 cards each turn can give us fuel to continue the match so I think I will prefer him and not run SoI.
Same words for Grave Titan, have to test it but I think it's pretty good against a lot of decks.
Anyway do you guys think that it's possible to play without 4x Chancellor? I've always played with them but I've seen that some decklist (DNSolver's too) don't run them anymore...are we going to a Chancellor-less direction?
I tried the no-chancellor version and it was really good until I ran into Grixis Delver. Chancellor is absolutely one of the most important cards against that matchup. Doesn't mean there isn't another way to solve the matchup, but if you're seriously considering playing without Chancellor, I would start by testing against Delver and making sure you're happy with the results before moving forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alakhai84
I suppose it's possible I overstate the problems this deck has against Delver, but two of the people in my playgroup are two of the best Delver players out there (much better magic players than me), so I'm used to testing against top tier opponents on this matchup in particular. But yeah. Test against Delver without Chancellor.
Did you try out the Phyrexian Obliterators like in DNSolvers stream?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
I did. My opponent played a 5/6 Tarmogoyf (thanks lotus petal!). The next round my opponent played Baleful Strix.Quote:
Originally Posted by akwing00
I am more familiar with UB reanimator than RB reanimator. However, imo an alternative line of play here is to t1 thoughtseize the opponent rather than cast looting to take out Surgical (post sb)/FoW/Pierce/Thoughtseize since the opponent does not have Brainstorm mana open to protect a disruption piece and surgical does not have a target in the yard at the moment. Looting + Exhume can get through one active DRS with RBB if you have two fatties to discard and you get to resolve both spells. Drawing into Collective Brutality to kill the DRS will also solve the immediate situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
Agreed, that's probably the better line, but it's not without problems. It pushes the game long. Let's say you thoughtseize them, take surgical, see that their hand is all cantrips and creatures, no more countermagic. They untap, pass back with green mana and deathrite open, now you have to draw into both a second creature AND extra mana to combo off this turn. If one of those isn't your draw for the turn, casting the looting is really greedy. And even if you do draw a Griselbrand, do you cast the looting? You have two Griselbrands in hand, but you have to draw either Dark Ritual or Lotus Petal off the looting in order to cast the Exhume this turn. And if you don't draw those, do you discard the Griselbrands into the shaman? Probably 1, but not both. So after you thoughtseize you need two of the top 3 cards in your deck to be a creature and a fast mana source, or you have to pass back to the delver deck with it's had full of cantrips and it's active shaman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karhumies
You could certainly get lucky and draw the Collective Brutality. And that'd be OK. Unless they drew daze or spell pierce. But let's assume they don't. Now you cast 2 mana, kill the deathrite, pass back. They get another turn to cantrip, and now you're trying to combo off on turn 3 against a delver deck that has had multiple turns in which it could cast ponders and brainstorms since you last saw their hand. And unlike the blue version of reanimator, you're much more at the mercy of the top of your deck, since you don't have Brainstorms or Ponders to look for your main deck Show and Tells or search for a Brutality. If I'm playing non-Brainstorm combo against a Brainstorm deck, I want the game over as soon as humanly possible. Every turn they manipulate their hand my chances of winning go down.
I hope I don't come off like a dick here, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I enjoy working out these situations. Obviously I've stacked this situation so that it supports my point, and I'm sure there are holes that can be poked in it. It's certainly not the only hand you can draw with Looting, and I'm sure there are plenty of hands that have looting and are great. I'm just trying to illustrate the types of hands that look really good, have a fast combo in them, but kind of fall apart when you have to play against a deck that's prepared to interact on as many axes as Delver is.
Let's say it's g1. The t1 play is fetch (preferably Verdant Catacombs) into basic swamp, Thoughtseize them, go. Chances are the opponent won't put you into Reanimator at this point and could tap DRS for mana T2. If you draw a black spell, you can now Unmask yourself to discard Griselbrand into Exhume. Alternatively, without the black card, you can Looting hoping for a mana source to Exhume. Riskier alternative is fetch Bayou intentionally to make opponent think it's delver mirror or shardless BUG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff
But yes, unless you make it to 2RR mana to double cast looting on one turn, blue cantrips are better at looking at extra cards. Which brings us to this 11th place decklist:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...sts-2017-01-08
Basic Swamp Thoughtseize, taking countermagic doesn't make you leave Deathrite open? What else would it be beyond Reanimator? I suppose it could be some sort of weird Loam deck, but most of those eschew the 1CMC disruption in favor of chalice these days. It could be Turbo Depths, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karhumies
I tried something similar to that list and it didn't work for me, but I gave it a very cursory attempt and moved on quickly. I was playing Dark Ritual, which I think is a real strength of the BR version, and I really found myself missing Unmask. That said, I think there are a lot of matchups where the blue version is decidedly better than the red version. And this list is really cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karhumies
The reason why we run F.Looting or C.Study in the first place is:
- We are allowed only 4 Entomb. We would actually like to play 8-11 copies with less creature count.
- Natural discard is too slow in today's meta. Even on the draw at end of t1 into t2 Reanimate typically, making us mulligan these hands which could be keepable with FoW and/or Daze backup from the blue lists.
- Thoughtseizing ourselves is bad and Unmasking ourselves is even worse.
- Thought Scour and Tome Scour are unreliable.
- Firestorm, Lightning Axe, Sickening Dreams not MD material.
- Tireless Tribe, Putrid Imp, Aquamoeba, LED do not fit our game plan. We are not old school dredge.
- Collective Brutality is cmc2.
F.Looting and C.Study then double as filtering + discard outlet. C.Study also pitches to FoW.
The downside of 1 mana self discard as a sorcery (T.seize, C.study, F.Looting) to setup animation targets is primarily DRS and Scavenging Ooze. Ooze is typically too slow against us without other disruption, leaving only DRS. Because C.Study/F.Looting is typically good against pretty much any non-DRS md stuff, we are happy to "bite the bullet" and accept this downside since it makes our deck better against everything else due to less slots required by doubling filter + discard in a fast mana deck.
Options available:
- In DRS infested meta, Reanimator is not a great deck choice to begin with.
- Mulligan aggressively into t1 reanimation hands over t2-3 hands, especially in g1 on the draw. RB mulligans better than UB due to D.Ritual and A.Dead. But RB filters worse after the first attempt fails. When playing a glass cannon deck, learn to embrace it. This applies primarily to 4 Chancellor builds, since a Chancellor is our only "interation" vs opponent on the play with t1 drs/spot discard/chalice 1.
- MD Collective Brutality to kill DRS.
- SB Abrupt Decay / Sudden Shock / Show and Tell / Monastery Mentor / Pithing Needle.
- Always win g1 coin toss vs DRS decks.
- Simian Spirit Guide in addition to petals to help cast looting and to combat Daze. Not a great choice unless Daze and/or Chalice infested meta. Typically we choose D.Ritual over SSG since we have only 4 Reanimate but 8 A.Dead + Exhume, meaning that the third mana is relevant on t1. But SSG could see play over Chrome Mox for 9th and 10th acceleration card. Chrome Mox allows us to cut lands, though, SSG doesn't.
...which is why I mentioned the Polluted Delta or Verdant Catacombs into Bayou into Thoughtseize plan even at the risk of getting blown out by Wasteland, because the basic swamp is too telling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff