Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bad Magic 101
Armageddon becomes a lot less key when running ghost quarter and o ring.
with o ring and maze of ith you gain time to play your spellz!
Firstly, I don't play 'spellz'.
Secondly, Armageddon buys you the time. It's what it does, and if it doesn't buy you time, it wins you the game. But it's fine by me, you go toss your Armageddons. I'm not a big fan of Ghost Quarter as it's too slow to take effect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bad Magic 101
You know what sucks? Having to pay two mana to maze of ith. With maze of ith you can still cast spells without paying two mana.
You're right, Kor Haven costs two mana and Maze of Ith none (or you could see it as it costs you 1 mana every turn). But you could take a few hits at first, that doesn't really matter, and later on, you have the two mana to spare to stop that runaway Goyf. And in the meantime you could have used Kor Haven for mana to cast your locks.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
Well perhaps you should try running 3 Flagstones and 7 plains then since you can't have 2 Flagstones at the same time on the table, the fourth one doesn't really help you getting to that second white mana.
3 or 4 flagstones is not the problem here, the number of white source is. (12 in your build, 14 in mine).
Furthermore, 2 flagstones at the same time is rare, because:
_ You need to draw 2 of them
_ The first flagstone has more than 50% chance of becoming a plain before you draw a 2nd one (geddon, smoke..)
_ If you really had to play the 2nd flagstones, you just loose tempo "1 tapped mana during that turn", so it only matter when you are hurry.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bad Magic 101
You know what sucks? Having to pay two mana to maze of ith. With maze of ith you can still cast spells without paying two mana.
Armageddon becomes a lot less key when running ghost quarter and o ring.
with o ring and maze of ith you gain time to play your spellz!
mr france, maybe the sentence ghost quarters = strip mine is true in your lil country but in The Netherlands, this sentence is far from true.
Also kor haven > maze of ith just because it gives mana to allow you to play spells and stall the game to let you draw more cards, also a neat trick behind kor haven, you can kill the creature if you're in the right spot doensn't that just sounds to good to be true?
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
B4L4
3 or 4 flagstones is not the problem here, the number of white source is. (12 in your build, 14 in mine).
Ho, wait STOP!
DISCLAIMER: I used to run 3 Flagstones, am running 4 now and am thinking of cutting back to 3.
I'm merely saying that I can see how DeathScythes rather unorthodox list could work with the propper playstyle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DeathScythe
mr france, maybe the sentence ghost quarters = strip mine is true in your lil country but in The Netherlands, this sentence is far from true.
I think B4L4 is French, and I don't know where Bad Magic 101 comes from, who suggested the Ghost Quarters...and on a side note, I wouldn't call France a 'lil country' ;)
Back on track:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
B4L4
Furthermore, 2 flagstones at the same time is rare, because:
_ You need to draw 2 of them
_ The first flagstone has more than 50% chance of becoming a plain before you draw a 2nd one (geddon, smoke..)
_ If you really had to play the 2nd flagstones, you just loose tempo "1 tapped mana during that turn", so it only matter when you are hurry.
Playing 4 Flagstones myself, it's not that rare drawing that second Flagstone, it's actually quite common. But it's no disaster as pointed out earlier.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
Firstly, I don't play 'spellz'.
Secondly, Armageddon buys you the time. It's what it does, and if it doesn't buy you time, it wins you the game. But it's fine by me, you go toss your Armageddons. I'm not a big fan of Ghost Quarter as it's too slow to take effect.
You're right, Kor Haven costs two mana and Maze of Ith none (or you could see it as it costs you 1 mana every turn). But you could take a few hits at first, that doesn't really matter, and later on, you have the two mana to spare to stop that runaway Goyf. And in the meantime you could have used Kor Haven for mana to cast your locks.
Whatever grammer police. The "z" key is right next to the "s" key.
Armageddon thrashes your land. Instead, i want to buy time then geddon! plus you forget about the draw engine!! you need a draw engine. Like I showed with links abbove, you overvalue geddon
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
B4L4
3 or 4 flagstones is not the problem here, the number of white source is. (12 in your build, 14 in mine).
oi help me figure out one thing, you are saying I play to few white sources (not skeggi, the list you're talking about is mine) and then you give reasons which indicate that my number of flagstones is wrong in your eyes, this are 2 different items if I'm not mistaking.
And i will repeat it once more for the third time (and please take your time to read it this time), it fits MY playstyle. Yes it's different but different does NOT make it crappish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
I think B4L4 is French, and I don't know where Bad Magic 101 comes from, who suggested the Ghost Quarters...and on a side note, I wouldn't call France a 'lil country' ;)
that's sort of true, geus I read to quick for my own good, and I still find France small but let's not go off-topic
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bad Magic 101
Whatever grammer police. The "z" key is right next to the "s" key.
Armageddon thrashes your land. Instead, i want to buy time then geddon! plus you forget about the draw engine!! you need a draw engine.
Sorry I didn't want to be 'grammar' police :tongue:
Anyways, if that suits your playstyle, you should. I just know it's sort of a lose-more situation: Armageddon is a card I often need to play asap, or I get trampled.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
I'm merely saying that I can see how DeathScythes rather unorthodox list could work with the propper playstyle.
Playing 4 Flagstones myself, it's not that rare drawing that second Flagstone, it's actually quite common. But it's no disaster as pointed out earlier.
Looosing tempo aint a big dealbreaker? Why not cut two flagstones and play a draw engine?! How many exhausted angel do you play?
I really like DeathScythes list as it is very versatile. There's nothing worse then drawing dead cards.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
Sorry I didn't want to be 'grammar' police :tongue:
Anyways, if that suits your playstyle, you should. I just know it's sort of a lose-more situation: Armageddon is a card I often need to play asap, or I get trampled.
Maybe its more playskill and versatility fhan anything else. if you have to panic and hit the armageddon button their's probably more wrong than good.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bad Magic 101
Looosing tempo aint a big dealbreaker? Why not cut two flagstones and play a draw engine?! How many exhausted angel do you play?
I play 2 (my angels are exalted and fit though, not near exhaustion :tongue:). What do you mean by losing tempo? Drawing that second one happens mid-game, often when the opponent is already locked down (with a little help from my Armageddon :tongue:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bad Magic 101
Maybe its more playskill and versatility fhan anything else. if you have to panic and hit the armageddon button their's probably more wrong than good.
Maybe it is, but don't confuse an early Armageddon with panic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DeathScythe
I still find France small but let's not go off-topic
Calling it 'Pays-Petite' (sp?) would fit more then ;p
Anyways; I'm kind of tired defending cards like Armageddon for this deck. If you want to be stubborn, be my guest. I'm off to bed now. GL with your deck.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bad Magic 101
Looosing tempo aint a big dealbreaker? Why not cut two flagstones and play a draw engine?! How many exhausted angel do you play?
I really like DeathScythes list as it is very versatile. There's nothing worse then drawing dead cards.
Perhaps you would like to try my list, I've been tooling and tweaking for about 1,5 years now and I doubt you can understand some of the choices I made (hence the whole flagstones/mox D/ 'you play to little 4-off' yadayada) but I hope that you do understand that it's a good list for me even though you never met me.
Perhaps you can take the trouble of mailing acme-myst see what he thinks about how I play this list
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DeathScythe
Perhaps you would like to try my list, I've been tooling and tweaking for about 1,5 years now and I doubt you can understand some of the choices I made (hence the whole flagstones/mox D/ 'you play to little 4-off' yadayada) but I hope that you do understand that it's a good list for me even though you never met me.
Perhaps you can take the trouble of mailing acme-myst see what he thinks about how I play this list
It is a good list. it has the versatility needed to survive
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
I play 2 (my angels are exalted and fit though, not near exhaustion :tongue:). What do you mean by losing tempo? Drawing that second one happens mid-game, often when the opponent is already locked down (with a little help from my Armageddon :tongue:)
Maybe it is, but don't confuse an early Armageddon with panic.
Calling it 'Pays-Petite' (sp?) would fit more then ;p
Anyways; I'm kind of tired defending cards like Armageddon for this deck. If you want to be stubborn, be my guest. I'm off to bed now. GL with your deck.
I mean like losing tempo when you need to cast a spell and instead you have to blow up the flagstones like that example with a flagstone in play a city of traitors and a smokestack in hand. a flagstone their is verry bad.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bad Magic 101
Whatever grammer police. The "z" key is right next to the "s" key.
Armageddon thrashes your land. Instead, i want to buy time then geddon! plus you forget about the draw engine!! you need a draw engine. Like I showed with links abbove, you overvalue geddon
Over value geddon? Where did you come from?
Armageddon is the best card in the deck. It makes Trinisphere, Chalice, Magus, Crucible, and Ghostly Prison better.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bane of the Living
Over value geddon? Where did you come from?
Armageddon is the best card in the deck. It makes Trinisphere, Chalice, Magus, Crucible, and Ghostly Prison better.
go back and look at the links above that i provided. plains is the best card in the deck so you can cast your stuff!
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
One, the worlds list you posted still used 4 geddon effects. Sounds kind of important to the game plan to me. 4 geddon effects and no draw engine, so i'm not sure what you are talking about with saying geddon arn't needed with a draw engine. Geddon's are AMAZING, if you arn't playing them as at least a 4 of, you should leave the board.
About the second list its called Angel Stax, and if you look carefully and I assume you can read, the name of the thread we are posting in is Armageddon stax. From what I've seen geddon stax puts up better numbers than angel stax in most metas.
Haven't we talked about tanglewire enough over 31 pages, I'm pretty sure we ended up saying that unless you have a specific meta, it isn't that good and hurts you as much as it hurts them. We don't have access to all the extra moxes that T1 does, so we have less stuff to tap down. It does help against a few select decks, but I'm not sure that makes it worth it to run md, and sb we'd have to take out other good cards against a wider variety of decks.
I think Kor haven is better simply because it taps for mana. That helps out greatly.
How is it panicing to hit the armageddon button? Thats what the deck is designed to do! Play some lock pieces, geddon them out, then recover faster than them, win. Seems like pretty much the plan for the deck.
Also both decks linked had 4 mox diamonds and over 25 lands.
How are the posts in this forum going down so fast? Crucible = good, geddon effects = good, 3 mana turn 1 = good. Are we now trying to make the deck less consistent and able to get an early lock? Cause if so go right ahead.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
The bottom line here, guys, is that if we start to use clarifiers and rationalizations like 'it works for me', or 'it's great in my meta', or 'it fits my playstyle'. You can point to a card that works versus certain decks (and subsequently in certain metas), but is not a maindeck 'universal' solution. Honestly, DeathScythe's list looks pre-sideboarded to me. He has all the answers that he expects to need in his meta. His list wouldn't work for me at all. That doesn't make it a 'bad' list, but it's probably not what I would consider a starting point either if I were travelling to a Grand Prix or similar meta.
Armageddon (I've said this before if you read this whole thread and the 1-2 before it) is the best card in this deck (just like Bane said). Period. Armageddon is very good against Legacy in general because it punishes tight mana curves, low land counts, and the use of fetches (i.e. most of the format). Take Thresh for example, in a typical list they play 17-18 lands with 6-7 fetches. It's not unusual for them to use 2 fetches to get their first two lands. If I 'Geddon off two lands and a mox, it's a 4-for-4 trade (3 lands and Armageddon for 2 lands in play and 2 fetches), but my recovery is 22 lands plus 4 Crucibles in my remaining deck while he has 13-14 lands left in his. This often swings 'tempo' in my direction which is HUGE agains a deck like Thresh.
Pointing to a list from Magic League (SteveMan runs and wins a lot of tournaments over there against a VERY predictable meta and, I mean no offense by this, the culture at Magic League is to drop before you lose to maintain rating) that is obviously tweaked for the meta (Swords in the board?) and Rispal's deck, which is atypical to say the least and is clearly attempting a 'good stuff' approach, doesn't exactly prove your point about Armageddon's value (both decks mainboard or sideboard it even). It again goes to the metas, SteveMan's list is great in some tournaments he plays and others he bows out quickly in others - not to mention a 3 round tournament gathers little data - and I've not seen a list of Rispal's opponent's, but if you are a good Magic player (at World's) and know your Stax deck (as I'm sure he did and many on this thread are/do), in a tournament of 100s of players of varied ability, 4-1 with a sub-optimal list is not an unreasonable outcome.
I think we can all come up with cards that are great against certain decks and certain archetypes, but I know my motivation is to look for the best 'general purpose' cards which give me the highest chance of winning no matter what, when, or against who. That's probably pretty narrow, but, again, I think solving an aggro-heavy meta is easy for this deck, solving a combo-heavy meta is easy for this deck (not to say that they won't have answers). But try solving a Landstill-heavy meta, try solving a Survival-heavy meta - those are our real challenges.
Just my 2 cents...
-FB...
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Wes
One, the worlds list you posted still used 4 geddon effects. Sounds kind of important to the game plan to me. 4 geddon effects and no draw engine, so i'm not sure what you are talking about with saying geddon arn't needed with a draw engine. Geddon's are AMAZING, if you arn't playing them as at least a 4 of, you should leave the board.
Wrong. Look again. I assume you can read as it is "Jonathan Rispal" at 2007 Worlds, Legacy.
He has 1 armageddon and 1 ravages of war.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
While I know that exalted angel is somewhat of a standard in everyone's list and she really does steal games, has anyone considered putting tangle wires in her place to buy you more time? Wires obviously have good synergy with smokestack, 3sphere but they are have a lopsided effect as over the course of a wire your opponent will tap 10 permanents and you will tap 6 total but only 3 that are not your wire.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Wes
One, the worlds list you posted still used 4 geddon effects. Sounds kind of important to the game plan to me. 4 geddon effects and no draw engine, so i'm not sure what you are talking about with saying geddon arn't needed with a draw engine. Geddon's are AMAZING, if you arn't playing them as at least a 4 of, you should leave the board.
About the second list its called Angel Stax, and if you look carefully and I assume you can read, the name of the thread we are posting in is Armageddon stax. From what I've seen geddon stax puts up better numbers than angel stax in most metas.
Angel Stax and Geddon stacks are the same thing. This is not Angel stompy.
Exactly, geddon is amazing when you set it up, like what I said.
Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax
Armageddon needs to be included as an automatic 4-of, period. It's the trump card of the deck IMO, the one that swings the game in your favor, the one that lets you breathe a sigh of relief after it resolves. Plus its the feared card of the deck, the one your opponent hates to see resolve.
jazzykat, I don't think Tangle Wire is really all that great in this deck. I've tested with four of them in my Angel Stax build (which basically had more Angels and Wraths instead of Armageddons), and they just end up being annoying on your side of the table. Plus, Angel does her job by buying you more time as well, as she can regain life lost to Ancient Tomb.
Also, I'm a strong supporter of making the deck as consistent as possible, playing only 4-ofs of cards essential to the deck instead of throwing in random silver bullets. Like others have said before, the deck has no tutors and no draw, so the single of double copies of Moat/Kor Haven/etc. reduce the overrall effectiveness of the deck. The only cards in my list that there are not at least 4 of are Exalted Angels (the win condition anyway) and Mishra's Factory (I couldn't fit in any more with the tight land structure, even with 26 lands). I feel four of each card makes the deck much more solid, albeit a little less versatile to feared decks. Have faith in what the deck is supposed to do.
