I like your choices. Gaddock Teeg is a butt wiping in itself. The only answer I have is Counterspell, Force of Will or Swords. I'll just pray to never see it again.
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I like your choices. Gaddock Teeg is a butt wiping in itself. The only answer I have is Counterspell, Force of Will or Swords. I'll just pray to never see it again.
The other plan against Teeg is to make their Threshold creatures look small and meek using Runed Halos and Relics. Once you hit 5-7 mana, just surprise block with soldier tokens. If they refuse to block with Teeg, take down a Goose or Goyf as a prize.Quote:
Originally Posted by rockout
Post-board, you should pre-set your EEs to bait Grip and use your Grips to counter CB so you can cast your answer cards like Relic, Halo, and Swords.
Interesting points about relic, do you have any saved logs on mws where relic/ rune made the difference? If so id like to see them in a private messege so I could see the impact they had.
Runed Halo has saved me against Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Lackey, Terravore, Countryside Crusher, Seismic Assault, Tendrils, Tarmagoyf... I really think it's the real deal. I've never played with Relic, but shrinking a Tarmagoyf or killing a Terravore seems good to me. One mana plus another mana to activate makes it slightly worse when you need to crypt Ichorid's graveyard turn 1, but I can't think of another time where Crypt is better than Relic. Even better, It cantrips for a business spell.
But is relic truly better then pate. Pate gives you answers to combo that relic doesn't even touch. DIf's model plays relicx2-3? and one pate. I dont think thats the right count but I can deffinately be wrong, as quite often from not I am.
Either way im quite interested to see if taking out mage for rune would be a cost effective measure that also proves just as good in other matchups.
It serves other purposes.Quote:
But is relic truly better then pate.
It's just so much better against Loam-based Decks like ITF or Aggro Loam, makes big Goyfs small(Tarmodude), or even kills them(Terravore).
SO in conclusion it's of course bad vs. Storm Combo (except for the comboplayer goes the iggyroute) but still helps against Dredge.
If DIf's list plays Cunning Wish those are definitly the right numbers.Quote:
DIf's model plays relicx2-3? and one pate. I dont think thats the right count but I can deffinately be wrong, as quite often from not I am.
Being still able to wish for the pate g1 is often quite good, because you can play landstill the way it should be played - reactive. The Pate allows you to adapt to the situation - and since the relic's out I barely board the pate in.
I don't want to miss any of those in my side, so i wouldn't replace them with each other.Quote:
Either way im quite interested to see if taking out mage for rune would be a cost effective measure that also proves just as good in other matchups.
Hope i wasn't to confusing =D
I would have to agree about your reasoning with Ajani vs Crucible arguement. Ajani is in fact better since he is difficult to kill for most decks and fits the role of being a mid/late game power on the defensive and offensive ends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
Agreed upon your Relic statement as well. Relic plays a role similiar to Humility against creatures like Tarmogoyfs and Terravores.
Also looking at your sideboard it seems decent for the current environment. Meddling Mage supplemented with Runed Halo definitely helps the Nauseam Tendrils matchup. While Hydroblast, Relic of Progenitus, Runed Halo, and Ajani are all utilizing for Aggro Loam. Considering having a fair balance between threats and utility cards that can potentially cut off the integral engine of Loam provides you a chance to win this matchup.
Heya there control friends.
First of all ill post my list so u can give me your opinion with a better point of view.
Name Qty Sideboard
Flooded Strand 4
Polluted Delta 2
Wasteland 3
Tundra 4
Plains 2
Underground Sea 2
Island 3
Mishra's Factory 4
Crucible of Worlds 1
Fact or Fiction 2 1
Decree of Justice 2
Cunning Wish 3
Wrath of God 3
Engineered Explosives 2
Humility 2
Brainstorm 4
Force of Will 4
Counterspell 4
Standstill 4
Swords to Plowshares 4
1 Free slot MD for a alternative win condition / utility.
Blue Elemental Blast 0 1
Enlightened Tutor 0 1
Extirpate 0 4
Dismantling Blow 0 1
Slaughter Pact 0 1
Pulse of the Fields 0 1
Circle of Protection: Red 0 1
Meddling Mage 0 4
Lands: 24, Spells: 36, Crt: 0 60 15
The list is a standart uwb landstill i think, well the problem is that i am looking for an alternative win condition becouse i dont want to loose due to double extirpate.
I dont like eternal dragon becouse i use to finish the games with humility on board so dragon is not more than a fetchland that costs 2 to activate.
Then i did read some landstill threads here and in some other forums and i saw some pleople runing ajani or elspeth. I like the idea of runing one of those but i cant decide wich one is better. I think ajani is better becouse the second hability "combo" with decree and mishras and the last one is a fast finisher but i like also the hability of elspeth to create tokens and block tarmos with it and the last one being your tokens undestructible.
Any suggestion? thx for your help
Can you explain why? Id apreciate a deeper explanation so i can understand better
Elspeth helps you to win games much quicker. Most decks only out to getting rid of Elspeth is to attack it. I know from personal experience that Humility + Elspeth is ultimate board position against any deck wanting to win through attacking. Elspeth is able to chump block forever with it's +1 put a win condition into play. Besides flying/trample, most creatures can't swing through a 1/1 and while your opponent finds an answer for Elspeth you proceed to win the game on the back of giving your man-lands/tokens +3/+3 and flying.
I'll take 2 and run them main deck.
Another good things is that legacy is not use to deal with planeswalkers. So the only ways to get rid of a walker are: vindicate, oring, attack, burn. Planeswalkers give us the chance to be more aggressive on the board while being not easily hatable (and so they need less protection, especially elspeth since she protects herself). This is the reason why i run MD 2 Elspeth 1 ajani (pumps mishra, under standstill works fucking good, helps g1 vs burn, etc etc), and i'm planning to go to 2 ajani 2 elspeth md (cutting the ajani sb for another useful tool, maybe argivian find, since i cut humility down to 1). Here's the list i'm testing. I went 19^ in a tourney last sunday (84 people) and only lost to high tide (not a surprise) and a landstill that run 3 ajani 2 elspeth md (here's the list):
UWb Cunningstill by Luca Bozzato
// Lands
4 [U] Tundra
1 [A] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [UG] Plains
3 [UG] Island
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [A] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [A] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance / 1 [WL] Argivian Find
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
I see where you're coming from. I've considered ramping up my Elspeth count to 2 aswell (basically 1 Decree/2 Elspeth split).Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
Seeing your SB and that MD Ajani (2?), I soon figured you gotta be from bella Italia:laugh: (2 Ajani MD+1P.O.T. fields in the SB - hehe..)
Anyway with your E. Tutor toolbox, I don't see a reason to still include Cunning Wish - with all your Planeswalkers, Wraths etc. your deck is already pretty clunky. I'd suggest you try out 2 Ponders in these slots, this should smooth out your deck. With Wishes gone, you should also replace Extirpate with a singleton Crypt (tutorable via T. West, too:wink: )
I'd strongly suggest, you run a singleton Oblivion Ring/Seal of Cleansing in your main without Wishes - you need a maindeck out to stuff like Crucible of Worlds and the likes, afterall.
Also, I'd cut the S.Top (which I find useful against other control decks only) and replace it with a singleton Runed Halo, which is probably the best addition to your toolbox-deck. 1 Sensei's Top (MD) and 1 CB in the SB doesn't appear to be a consistent out against StormCombo anyway. So there you go, you just found room for your 4th Meddling Mage. :tongue:
Don't get me wrong, I definitely like the approach of your deck (even though 2 E. Tutor's should be enough, I think).
how has vindicate been going for you klaus, or anyone else who has tried it?
@Kensook:
Vindicate has been working well for me. I'm of the opinion, though that cutting the C. Wish package is only cool if you won't have to face Burn and Loam.decs all day, both of which are not prevalent in most US metas (GoyfSligh being the exception-and you're possibly dead anyway before you can go Wish->P.O.T.fields+maintaining control).
Yes, this list has written on its face "look, I'm italian!" :tongue: In the last tourney I lost with that deck running 3 ajani 2 elspeth MD, and it had 3 wishes in it. I think wish is still the card i would never cut form my list, mostly because i need to get my hands on some useful stuff whenerever i want during the game: basically, the 3rd tutor and the disenchant effect (POTF sometimes when needed, extirpate again only on some things like wasteland for stax and loam for loam.dec, etc.). Oring is surely a card worth to be fit in some room, but I don't see any :( I would not go under 20 blue cards to support FOW (even if 19 would be enough I think, maybe I could cut a standstill). But is really a card I complain that is not in my MD. Ponder (which I run in 3x until last july) is not worth the flexibility of wish (even though, of course, wish's utility has been reduced by the growth of e. tutor toolbox). That's why I choose SDT: it's tutorable, fucking good under standstill, surely a controllish card (not a card I would tutor for in faster matches), gives us a long-term advantage. It's not quick as ponder, but I would never cut wishes for that... However, I will surely try a list without wishes, replacingQuote:
Originally Posted by klaus
-1 sdt
-2 wishes
+1 Oring
+2 ponder
The MD halo would be a good thing, but it's really useful? is good against other landstill, il surely good g1 against tendrils combo, but it's no use against solidarity (which is one of our worst MU) and does nothing against ETW. Why would it be our best addition to the tutor toolbox?
Well, I'll go and think about the non-wish list. Also, do you think that a wish-ful list would be much more good in a control meta, and a wish-less would be much more good in a aggro-combo one, or do you think that a wish-less list is far more good that a list wish-ful one?
Anyway, I think that Elspeth should entirely replace Doj: there's still one in my list because the meta here in the north-east is full of other landstill, and so I can't cut it, you understand.:laugh:
A possible wish-less list:
// Lands
4 [U] Tundra
1 [A] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Scrubland
2 [UG] Plains
3 [UG] Island
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [A] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [TE] Humility
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [LRW] Ponder
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [A] Wrath of God
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [A] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [WL] Argivian Find
SB: 1 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 [TS] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
First off, both Brainfreeze and Stroke of Genius do target - so Halo works here.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
Trust me Halo is NEVER a dead card be it against Aggro or AggroControl or Combo. I suggest you try it and I promise you won't be dissapointed.
(1)=Yes. (2)=Yes. (3)=I'm not sure yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
I'd never cut that singleton Decree, no matter what meta I was facing. Keep it, it's uncuttable.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
Playing a single Decree means you draw it much later in average compared to lists with 2-3 copies. This again means you have more land in play, making it bigger and thus more worthwhile.
Having run 3 I always found myself cycling my 1st Decree for 1,2 or even 0 just get my next card - Elspeth solves that, obviously.
I could never see me running 3 Elspeths though - don't forget the legendary rule applies here.
--
That being said, I like your list above. The only thing that I'd suggest is adding my beloved MD Runed Halo and -1 Argivian Find, -1 Canonist___+1 Halo, +1Meddling Mage (he's really golden in the mirror).
That Return to Dust is surely the remains of the Wish toolbox. If you want a SB card against artifact/enchantment heavy decks you could add 1 Serenity or 1 Seal of Cleansing or 1 Aura of Silence (all of which can be E. Tutored, too)
I was pointing out the fact that AdNtendrils, belcher, etc gives us the time to cast halo, while the denial of solidarity is a real problem. Also, solidarity can get its sb wipe away via cunning wish, so that halo would be unuseful. I know it's a good card, i run 3 copies sb until i replaced it with mage+canonist. But really, i dont' know what to cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Agreed. The list i was referring to run 3 ajani because of the fact ajani dies fast if we pump our creatures. Elspeth is good in 2 copies, it's the right number.Quote:
I'd never cut that singleton Decree, no matter what meta I was facing. Keep it, it's uncuttable.
Playing a single Decree means you draw it much later in average compared to lists with 2-3 copies. This again means you have more land in play, making it bigger and thus more worthwhile.
Having run 3 I always found myself cycling my 1st Decree for 1,2 or even 0 just get my next card - Elspeth solves that, obviously.
I could never see me running 3 Elspeths though - don't forget the legendary rule applies here.
--
-argivian find: if our opponent sides in krosan grip, it is a very good card. (even if it's right that Elspeth certainly decreases our dependency on humility). Maybe i'll cut it for the 4th mage.Quote:
That being said, I like your list above. The only thing that I'd suggest is adding my beloved MD Runed Halo and -1 Argivian Find, -1 Canonist___+1 Halo, +1Meddling Mage (he's really golden in the mirror).
That Return to Dust is surely the remains of the Wish toolbox. If you want a SB card against artifact/enchantment heavy decks you could add 1 Serenity or 1 Seal of Cleansing or 1 Aura of Silence (all of which can be E. Tutored, too)
-canonist: this is really our tutorable response to storm combo, slows them down and makes our answers uncounterable. with a meddling mage that names wipe away, we can get through.
return to dust: cons: the cost; pros; removes from the game (no recursion, no replenish). However, maybe it's better a tutorable tool like aura of silence or serenity (still undecided...).
So a quick tourney report for you guys to munch on.
20 people tourney
// Lands
3 [UNH] Plains
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [UNH] Island
4 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [8E] Wrath of God
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [TE] Humility
1 [IA] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [AL] Force of Will
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
I didn't have ajani and I couldn't find anyone who had any at the time so the 2nd blast is its replacement.
match one: uwb landstill vs mirror
g1 basicly comes down to me killing 2 factories then following suit drawing my dustbowl and color screwing him out of white. then locking him with standstill and drawing my own two factories.
g2 he gets factory standstill on 2 followed by x2 factories. I respond with tolaria west into dustbowl and he gets be to 6 before loosing tempo and being forced to break his own standstill when I double factory rush him. Neither of the games were close and elspeth took a backseat to constant factory beat down.
match 2 uwb landstill vs: dragonstompy
g1 he mulls to 6 and casts two reasonable threats which get countered and swords. Then I take over with dustbowl and ee in the same turn putting him down to 2 mountains followed by elspeth ftw.
g2 he gets blood moon in play which hinders my play a bit, but i have enough basic lands to fight through it. I end up responding to challice by breaking blood moon and following it up with elspeth mishra factory beatdown with a counter wall and repetitive standstill's. The game ended quickly thanks to elspeth.
match 3: uwb landstill vs: ubg fish.
g1: this match was rediculously close as he ran 4 mishra's and 1 vault. regularly casted vendillion clique without me having counters, and when I did they got eaten. I won off of standstill locking me out of playing spells on my own part and cycling not 1 but 2 decrees in a matter of 3 rounds killing three manlands, then following it up by slow rolling him with a soldier token and mishr'a factory beatdown.
we ended up drawing the second game.
match 4 RDW aka burn deck wins vs: uwblandstill
g1 I beat him with one life without seeing pulse
g2: I lose because I draw 1 basic land and he casts fireblasts with the non basic land burn spell
g3: I tap out like a dumb ... and he burns me for 16 damage, I had complete control of the game and I gave it up because im retarded
match 5: draw into t8
t8 uwblandstill vs RDW different version.
g1: I mully to 5 thinking I need to see some draw spells or cunning wish neither are seen I lose
g2: I almost stabilize but no counters and no with leave me wanting more from the deck. Runed halo was cute locking out price of progress.
I am interested in playing this deck in Legacy, so I have been looking through lists on deckcheck and this thread. Some of these latest lists seem very close to each other (which is probably a good thing), but I noticed a discrepancy in one list that had me curious, and I had one question myself.
Most of the lists I looked at had 2 Cunning Wish and 3 Spell Snare, but one list I saw cut Spell Snare for a 3rd Cunning Wish and 2 Fact or Fiction. Is Standstill and Brainstorm sufficient card draw, or is something else like Fact or Fiction needed?
My personal question is about the sideboard. I like the idea of a Wishboard, but most sideboards I've seen have had to concede a lot of slots to Meddling Mage, Engineered Plague, Extirpate, and Hyrdroblast, but not leaving much else for the Wishboard, while personally I can think of a lot of things to put there (probably foremost in my mind are Counterspell, Fact or Fiction, and Stifle). Speaking of Stifle, is that worth consideration in the MD Spell Snare slot? I'm only nominally familiar with Legacy, but wouldn't a wishable Stifle along with 3 main help the combo matchup greatly? It seems like this deck is not at all designed to win vs. Storm, unless I have no idea what I am talking about, and I would think a non-dead-in-other-matchups card like Stifle is an autoinclude.
I apologize if I'm rehashing, I can't remember if I read the whole thread, but I really can't see not packing Stifle, and I wouldn't know what else to cut other than Spell Snare.
So I guess my basic question is: How important is Spell Snare, and how are OK are you without FoF main, Stifle, or a bigger wishboard.
Generally speaking the combo match is already really good. Now depending on which specific combo deck were talking about specifies what you side in. Meddling mage is quite the house, and mixing that in with counterspell force and spell snare enables you to prevent said opponent from going off. The other half of it is that certain aggro control cards can sometimes work in these matchups as well aka EE, EP, BEB, ect. Usually with these models you have enough time to not only control them enough to slow them down, but the key is getting set up and putting them on a clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by aldaryn