[Deck] UBGx Landstill

If you're going to run the Intuition/Loam engine, it really is worth it to run the singleton blue cycling land, as well as a single Chainer's Edict. Both are solid additions to your pile if you have nothing better to grab. I personally love the UGB-shell Intuition builds, and I keep one under wraps for surprise use from time to time. That said, Intuition/Loam engines scare me right now with Relic of Progenitus being as prominent as it is currently.

In Standstill mirrors, yes, 4C sucks. That's always been one of its drawbacks. There was a time where 4C beat everything -but- mirrors. That's less true now with more tricksy matchups out there, but there still isn't much that's heavily favored against a good 4C list other than decks that use Standstill better.

Your best bet in these cases is to know your opponent's decks well enough to take advantage of your sideboard. Plague goes a long way in the Merfolk matchup, and Mage/Extirpate both help against Dreadstill/other Landstills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tinefol

// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
4 [R] Underground Sea
4 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate

---

As a merfolk player. I played against a few landstill decks on MWS and I have too say this version gave me the most trouble. There are enough sweepers in there to give it problems if you fail to draw enough stifles or any at all.

Okay, so I got to play the version I posted on the last page a bit and I like it alot, but I came to a conclusion that makes me sad- 4x stp being the only white cards between the main and board does not justify the white. Oh, also with 8 fetches and 4 intuition I want tombstalker more than tarmogoyf. So, I'm working on a 3c list, taking tacosnape's suggestions under consideration. This is a rough list so any help is much appreciated:
2 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
4 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 island
1 swamp
1 lonely sandbar
4 mishras factory
1 dust bowl
1 academy ruins

3 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
1 chainer's edict
3 diabolic edict
1 vedalken shackles
1 life from the loam
1 eternal witness
3 tombstalker

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
4 intuition
4 counterspell
4 force of will
2 spell snare

I'm pondering between landstill and ITF, that what make each other better? ITF has Tarmogoyfs, so they have faster clock vs. Mishras factory and Elspeth, Knight-Errant. They both have quite same amout of removal. Landstill have better draw-engine (jace and standstills). So tell me what makes the difference / stronger deck :)

In the UGB builds, what if you don't own/can't acquire EE. I have every other card in order to build UGB Landstill, but almost every list I see is running 2 EE (in addition to 4 Deed). Would Powder Keg be an acceptable substitute until I can get 2 EE?

Powder keg is way too slow, it just gives the opponent more time to find krosan grip or their own ee. You can find ee for six bucks if you look hard enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atog

I'm pondering between landstill and ITF, that what make each other better? ITF has Tarmogoyfs, so they have faster clock vs. Mishras factory and Elspeth, Knight-Errant. They both have quite same amout of removal. Landstill have better draw-engine (jace and standstills). So tell me what makes the difference / stronger deck :)

---

ITF has the worse manabase, even without mishra's factory, they're playing 3-4 basics in a 4 color deck. Landstill can support tarmogoyf too if you want it, but landstill is much less grave-dependent that ITF, some even run maindeck relic of progenitus. ITFs card draw is garbage (loam, etched oracle) and it's just a slow p.o.s. that is difficult to play and is still too weak in too many areas. It's main pro is that it supports counterbalance better than any thresh list around. But landstill plays around cb altogether. And since this is a counterbalance format, landstill ftw.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 3duece

Powder keg is way too slow, it just gives the opponent more time to find krosan grip or their own ee. You can find ee for six bucks if you look hard enough.

---

Checking ebay, cardshark, trollandtoad, mtgfanatic, mtgmintcard, starcitygames, is turning up nothing near the $6 range. Care to point me in the right direction?

Damn, even magictraders.com has an average of $13.01, those fuckers went up. I guess cause most extended decks play them. Sorry man, my bad. It still kicks the crap out of powder keg. I'd play good old nevinyrral's disk over keg.

Dropping $15 per EE is a stiff price to pay. Until I can save up, I'll just run Disk I guess. Thanks for the suggestion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 3duece

ITF has the worse manabase, even without mishra's factory, they're playing 3-4 basics in a 4 color deck. Landstill can support tarmogoyf too if you want it, but landstill is much less grave-dependent that ITF, some even run maindeck relic of progenitus. ITFs card draw is garbage (loam, etched oracle) and it's just a slow p.o.s. that is difficult to play and is still too weak in too many areas. It's main pro is that it supports counterbalance better than any thresh list around. But landstill plays around cb altogether. And since this is a counterbalance format, landstill ftw.

---

Thanks! You mentioned that ITF is hard to play, i think so too. What landstill build is most powerfull in meta where thresh, evagreen and mbs are most played decks? There is a couple Enchantress and maybe angelstax running around. I guess ugb? Deed owns them quite well?

I would actually say UWb with wasteland, vindicate and elspeth would be very strong in that meta. And the thing about ITF is, it's hard to play but very unrewarding. You make these complicated decisions, then your opponent grips your top and pops relic and your game is over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 3duece

I would actually say UWb with wasteland, vindicate and elspeth would be very strong in that meta. And the thing about ITF is, it's hard to play but very unrewarding. You make these complicated decisions, then your opponent grips your top and pops relic and your game is over.

---

Yup. I think i have start looking those elspeths and vindicates and start practising with that to next tourney :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 3duece

I would actually say UWb with wasteland, vindicate and elspeth would be very strong in that meta. And the thing about ITF is, it's hard to play but very unrewarding. You make these complicated decisions, then your opponent grips your top and pops relic and your game is over.

---

I think you're overestimating the graveyard dependence for ITF. You're most recent build of Inuition-still has almost the same dependencies - 1x Loam, 1x Ruins - ITF plays Stronghold for Witness silliness and Relic shrinks Goyf but also makes it tough for you to cast Tombstalker. You mentioned that Landstill can play around CB but ITF runs 9+ 3cc cards, and your list doesn't play Wrath, FoF or Decree which are Landstill's major work-arounds for CB (aside from EE). You cut a color without improving the stability of the manabase, and you're basically running ITF with Standstill/Factory instead of Counter/Top and without Swords, one of the best removal spells ever printed. You already said a few posts ago how weak Standstill is with only 4x Factories to work under it, and Counter/Top is game winning in many many matches, especially when you can reliably flip for 3. I think this post sounds much more derogatory than I intended it to, so please don't get offended, I just take exception to ITF being called a "p.o.s.". I agree that it is weak in drawing cards, so I cut Counterspell for Dark Confidant, but for more on that, see the It's the Fear thread.

I'm not talking about landstill vs. itf in a match, I mean each one vs. the metagame. Most cb decks concentrate in the 1 and 2 slots, making landstill very strong even without wrath and fof. Sure, maybe I underestimate itf somewhat, but it does tie a few too many metagame weaknesses into one deck (4 colors, cb/top reliance, grave reliance, few winconditions, bad card draw).

I was hoping to get some feedback on the intuition build I've been working on. Yes, it is more open to grave-hate, but what I love about intuition is how open-ended it is and I feel it gives the deck alot of consistency whether you're putting together a recursion pile or not. Current issues I'm having are:
1. Manabase: I feel the fetches and duals are correct, and I'm quite happy with the utility land selection. Dust bowl is great here because it doesn't need loam the way wasteland does, ruins is necessary for alot of the best recursion piles, and sandbar is a great draw engine and taps for blue. My issue is basics, mainly that I want a basic forest, but I won't be able to fetch it. Any thoughts on this? Should I just say fuck it?

2. Win conditions: I currently have recurring factories, 3 tombstalkers and ruins for decking. Is this enough? I'm not sure where I'd fit tarmogoyf if I wanted it. Should I consider psychatog since this basically a tog/landstill hybrid?

Any help for opinions would be appreciated, thanks!

4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
4 underground sea
3 tropical island
2 island
1 swamp
4 mishra's factory
1 dust bowl
1 academy ruins
1 lonely sandbar

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
4 intuition
4 counterspell
4 force of will

4 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
1 vedalken shackles
1 life from the loam
3 diabolic edict
1 chainer's edict
1 executioner's capsule
1 eternal witness
3 tombstalker

1. This is a metagame choice. In my meta, I wouldn't play Intuition Still, because Dust Bowl and Ruins would be useless colorless mana lands most of the time. And if you're not running them, what's the point of running Intuition at all? I feel that it is about too many colorless/basics lands to not run into mana consistency problems, which affect greatly your match ups against fast aggro and aggro-control decks.

2. You may fit a Shriekmaw, possibly a goyf, or perhaps even a terravore there. May be Jace Beleren? I think that generally 9-10 win conditions is a right number for the deck, you have like 8-9.

On a side note, I've been tinkering around with UWx builds and I was quite a bit disappointed.

It seems so slow, it lacks removal greatly (4 stp is not enough), Wrath just blows with its enormous 2ww casting cost (I don't seem to reliably hit 4 mana with two white when needed because of wastelands and other mana disruption). Moat, Humility and Elspeth suffer from the very same problem. The deck also can't deal with permanents, Crucible/wasteland/dustbowl are so slow, that they almost never matter and win conditions are even more, hellishly slow, Eternal dragon is a whopping 7 or 5+7 mana investment, Decree is only good at a very late game and Elspeth is just a win more. I've tried CB/TOP - I could never assemble it fast enough against aggro (if you go assembling cb/top - they just beat down you with 1/2cc drops). I've tried Cunning Wish - it was extremly slow - next to unplayable. Nevinyrral disk is out of the question for the very same reason. Enlightened tutor is a freaking card disadvantage. You have to tap out like every turn, making your Counterspells useless and the rant goes on...

Is it just me or UWx is only good against slow, controllish metagame? I so missed the awesomeness of Pernicious Deed, speed of Monastery and reliable removal. Looks like I'm going to stick to 4c for a while.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tinefol

1. This is a metagame choice. In my meta, I wouldn't play Intuition Still, because Dust Bowl and Ruins would be useless colorless mana lands most of the time. And if you're not running them, what's the point of running Intuition at all? I feel that it is about too many colorless/basics lands to not run into mana consistency problems, which affect greatly your match ups against fast aggro and aggro-control decks.

2. You may fit a Shriekmaw, possibly a goyf, or perhaps even a terravore there. May be Jace Beleren? I think that generally 9-10 win conditions is a right number for the deck, you have like 8-9.

On a side note, I've been tinkering around with UWx builds and I was quite a bit disappointed.

It seems so slow, it lacks removal greatly (4 stp is not enough), Wrath just blows with its enormous 2ww casting cost (I don't seem to reliably hit 4 mana with two white when needed because of wastelands and other LD). Moat, Humility and Elspeth suffer from the very same problem. The deck also can't deal with permanents, Crucible/wasteland is so slow, that it almost never matters and win conditions are hellishly slow, Eternal dragon is a whopping 5 or 7+5 mana investment, Decree is only good at a very late game and Elspeth is a win more. I've tried CB/TOP - I could never assemble it fast enough against aggro (if you go assembling cb/top - they just beat down you with 1/2cc drops). I've tried Cunning Wish - it was extremly slow - next to unplayable. Nevinyrral disk is out of the question for the very same reason. Enlightened tutor is a freaking card disadvantage, the rant goes on...

Is it just me or UWx is only good against slow, controllish metagame? I so missed the awesomeness of Pernicious Deed, speed of Monastery and reliable removal. Looks like I'm going to stick to 4c for a while.

---

As far as metagames go, mine is very heavy on non-basics, so dust bowl is a definite. On the same token, merfolk with maindeck relic is getting big which definitely hurts the graveyard plan, but the nice thing about this deck is you can always just play the traditional landstill game of counter some shit, blow up the board and slow roll, using intuition as an instant demonic tutor instead.

I would be running shriekmaw if I played a volrath's stronghold, but the deck can't take another colorless source, especially one that demands black every turn. If I had a sac outlet for eternal witness I would consider it, but as it stands it's just not worth it. The win condition issue is still throwing me. Maybe polymorph ftw? (huge, huge joke)

I too was iffy on the manabase but after playing a little I realize that with 4 each of brainstorm, standstill and intuition along with loam, hitting double blue with black and green isn't as big of a deal as I thought. I still wish I could drop deed under blood moon, but basic forest just isn't going to work.

As far as your view of traditional landstill, it has it's place in most metas, but I think alot of people make poor decisions for it as far as deck construction, kind of a throwback to 'the danger of cool things.' In my opinion those decks are the closest things left to the classic weissman control style, and they need to play as such. The vindicate and wasteland plan seems to suit the fancy of some, but I think it just dilutes the deck. But yes, those decks are very powerful but slow as hell, that's why you seem them in the top 8s of many more european tournaments than american.

Has anyone of you guys tested Elspeth, she seems so do really well in UWb Landstill.

I know that she is really hard to cast, but I have been playing 4c Landstill with 2 Humilitys main (like many others here in Germany), and the gamebreaking impact of the card was really worth it's mana cost.

We are already running Jace as a Planeswalker, and he preformed really well. And Elspeth protectes herself, which forces your opponent to overextend, if he wants to deal with her - and he HAS to.

Any thoughts, or testing results? I started testing a few days ago, but will keep her in the deck, just to see weather she is worth the :2:WW.

AnduYn, no, just no. I don't know what kind of metagame you're playing in, but assembling 2WW in a deck which wants to play Perdeed (GB) in environment of wasteland, stifle and other mana disruption is extremely hard. If you get that kind of mana, chances are that you're already winning. Elspeth is so much of a win more there. I wouldn't overload the deck with 4cc permanent spells, I think Fact or Fiction is enough in that slot.

Not to mention, I didn't like her much in UWb either :/