[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

I slapped together Pulp Fiction's list. Only change is I turned the Scrubland into a Misty Rainforest (recommendation by Bahamut, I think, a few pages back). I plan on playing it all night tonight since I haven't played it in a couple of weeks.

There's a tournament tomorrow that I might play in. I can already tell that I am not going to like the Sideboard though, but we'll see.

The only reason I am debating on playing or not is because it's a $15 entry and the prize is just a dual land. Plus there's not a huge Legacy following around here, so I'm not even sure if the tournament will make.

Oh, I did have a question though. If they go Island -> Tap, Extract, name Tendrils. Do I just lose?

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Originally Posted by P.S.

I slapped together Pulp Fiction's list. Only change is I turned the Scrubland into a Misty Rainforest (recommendation by Bahamut, I think, a few pages back). I plan on playing it all night tonight since I haven't played it in a couple of weeks.

There's a tournament tomorrow that I might play in. I can already tell that I am not going to like the Sideboard though, but we'll see.

The only reason I am debating on playing or not is because it's a $15 entry and the prize is just a dual land. Plus there's not a huge Legacy following around here, so I'm not even sure if the tournament will make.

Oh, I did have a question though. If they go Island -> Tap, Extract, name Tendrils. Do I just lose?

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Yes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by P.S.

I slapped together Pulp Fiction's list. Only change is I turned the Scrubland into a Misty Rainforest (recommendation by Bahamut, I think, a few pages back). I plan on playing it all night tonight since I haven't played it in a couple of weeks.

There's a tournament tomorrow that I might play in. I can already tell that I am not going to like the Sideboard though, but we'll see.

The only reason I am debating on playing or not is because it's a $15 entry and the prize is just a dual land. Plus there's not a huge Legacy following around here, so I'm not even sure if the tournament will make.

Oh, I did have a question though. If they go Island -> Tap, Extract, name Tendrils. Do I just lose?

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Yes. But you can always run Grapeshot+Helm in sb.
And , in any case, it's better not to run BWish and to lose to Extract than to run Burning Wish, to not lose to Extract but to roll over from many other cards.

Anyone willing to answer my previous post? Come on, I'd ask it on the StormBoards but the avg quantity of posts written there is something like 0.10 :frown:

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

I'm currently trying PF's version of DDFt/ANT hybrid. While I like the sinergies between Tops and Mystical/AdNauseam, I'd noticed how much AdNauseam in here is completely suboptimal because of the Doomsday core (DD + Meditate), which makes it noticeably worse than how it is in straight ANT. I know that AdNauseam is the only storm engine that doesn't require you to setup with several cards and in normal conditions is an autowin out of nowhere, but it seems that this thing doesn't happen in here. Does anyone have tried a way to optimize it a bit more? I know that the 3rd mox is impossible to it because it would interfere too much with the DD part, but perhaps there's something else that can act like a sort of IMS. Rain Of Filth? 15 lands could be enough.

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My team has been playing a straight ANT list (14 land, 3 Mox 8 protection and the rest 4-offs) for quite some time before switching to the hybrid. I disagree with you that Ad Nauseam is completely suboptimal. I dare say it's as good if not better in this version than in straight ANT (I'm assuming a list without Tops for ANT) . The Tops make Ad Nauseam much better. It really helps.

I wouldn't run a 3th Mox. In fact, I wouldn't run a Mox at all if I didn't play AdN. They seriously suck. You almost never want to draw into one.

Rain of Filth is a decent card, but it doesn't go too well with AdN, because you have AdN to have a plan to be fast in those matchups where you can goldfish (or race random hate). I board out AdN with a lot of accel against pretty much every deck running blue.

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

Also, about the Sb strategies: I don't know if , against TT and Merfolks, boarding to become a straight DDFT is the right thing. TT is usually SBing in some Grips to handle Top, which mean that the DD plan can be seriously fucked up. Merfolk on the contrary tries to win as fast as possible and there have been times when I couldn't handle the quick clock, or just finished with DDay in hand and no top, and couldn't go for IGG because of Relic of Progenitus or them recurring Force/Daze (which are tedious along with Cursecatcher). In general, furthermore, I found Top to be too slow against Merfolks, tbh.
Any considerations about these MUs?

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I don't think Tempo Thresh will often board more than 2 Krosan Grip. Also, it's not always that much of a big deal when they Grip Top. You can very often win via regular IGG anyway, because you get so much time to resolve a Chant.

Merfolk is kind of annoying. I don't think Top is too slow though. Merfolk won't always be that fast. I don't know, every time I lose to Merfolk, they get insane hands with T1 Catcher T2 Lord T3 Catcher Lord with FoW in hand or something. You're probably not going to beat that often (although you certainly can). Regularly they will just drop turn 1 Vial and do nothing Turn 2 giving you a pretty huge window of time to play and abuse Top.

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

Last question: did anyone try to make the Hybrid version run onyl staying in the UBW colours? I tend to be reluctant in front of splashing a 4th colour because i like the possibility of having both Island and Swamp as basic lands ( and a Plains in side against tempo decks, ok); I can't deny that Xantid Swarm and Grip are great to face the hate, but , apart from Merfolks, 6 Chants (MD) and a Pact of Negation (from the sb) should be enough to handle Tempo decks. While for Grip, i replace it with Wipe Away. While it doesn't get rid of the enchantmente permanently, i found myself casting in the eot, and usually having success. Plus, CB decks are on a downside, so I'm not really afraid of them as i used to be. In the Stax Matchup, instead, the difference between a 3-cc removal and a 2-cc removal may matter a lot, because of the wasteland effect and also for Armageddons. That's why I tend to prefer several Disenchants over KGrip in this Matchup; also considering that the latter depends on a dual land, while the basic plains allows for "safe" mana for Disenchant.

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I started out with a 3c list as well, but honestly, I just went with 4c for Grip because there was almost no reason not to. I'm not very fond of basics at all. Those times you do face Tempo Thresh, which is really the only place you would want the basics (except for random crap like Dragon Stompy or Stax). Even in those matchups, I often find myself just fetching for Duals anyway, because there's little point in fetching basics when you're holding Sea or Tundra. I think the basic Island is important, because it allows you to keep cantripping, but the others (Plains and Swamp) are terrible draws, which is why I don't play them in the mainboard.

For the sideboard, mine is a little different from the lists you see here, because we run a 4-off that kind of fills the purpose of the basic land and the plan against Wasteland. For that reason I cut the basic Plains, but I would suggest it for a regular sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

I post my list, I'd like experts of this particular build to give me more in-depth suggestions about their experience with a hypothetical 3-colours only list.

1 [TSP] Island (4)
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [A] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [A] Tundra
1 [PT] Swamp (2)

// Spells
1 [WL] Doomsday
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [OV] Meditate
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [B] Dark Ritual
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [LRW] Ponder
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [M10] Silence

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 [MI] Disenchant
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [LRW] Plains (4)

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I suppose you could play Disenchant if there's an abundance of Stax in your meta. This isn't the case over here, so I wouldn't run those. 2 Slaughter Pact seems a bit random too. I'd rather have more bounce instead. I also like Truth more than Chain, but it seems that I'm the only one in that (might be because of Solidarity, where the card was wonderfull).

Unless you have a lot of mainboard CB in your meta, I wouldn't run the bounce mainboard. I generally hate drawing into it and it makes your AdN significantly worse. As I also said, I don't like the Swamp in the mainboard, and I don't like the Scrubland either, although it's not that bad. I cut them both for more fetchland. Running 10 fetchland is pretty good, perhaps you should try it.

As for Extract, yea you lose when the opponent has one (except for the extremely rare occasion where you're holding the Tendrills). I don't really care. It's a decent sideboard slot as a 1-off for Mystical I suppose, if you're expecting that much storm.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I don't really care. It's a decent sideboard slot as a 1-off for Mystical I suppose, if you're expecting that much storm.

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I am not expecting Storm at all. I am expecting people that have Islands to just slap Extract in their Sideboard when someone shows up without a creature deck though. That's the price you pay when playing in a smaller area, I suppose.

I was considering putting a second Tendrils in the Sideboard for solely that reason. :cry:

I just played against Dreadstill.








And he played Extract.

Ok, I'll shut up.

@Piceli89: Do you want to know how I sideboard with the list against blue? I posted it over on the Stormboards and I can post it over here if you want. Boarding into more DD and turning the deck into DDFT is the best strategy I have found against blue control. Ad Nauseam is usually worthless after turn 4 and especially worthless after you have more Grips in the deck so thats why it gets cut. Don't worry about them casting KGrip on Top, who cares, you have 3 more and 4 Brainstorm (and 2 Ponder depending on the list) and they also have to worry about Chant + IGG loop so you have a lot of different angles to come at them from. AdN from my experience just sucks in the blue matchups.

I would not ever play AdN without Chrome Mox, if you want to run Rain of Filth in addition to Moxen go ahead but it is largely worthless unless gaining threshold for CRit and it does not sustain the IGG Loop unless you have a shit ton of lands in play.

Why not play the 4th color? It really doesn't hurt you at all. Green has way to much to offer and I have been locked out of games before with Wipe Away so ... Grip is a must IMOP.

@ P.S.: SB is all meta-dependent man. I only post mine because this is what works in my meta, build it according to your own specifications based on what decks you are more likely to play against.

EtW is an out to Extract as well as Grapeshot+Helm. But seriously, if someone is dumb enough to play Extract .... more power to them, other matchups will suffer with this garbage in the SB. It is a lot like Mindbreak Trap, largely irrelevant and takes up SB slots. It isn't like storm combo is everywhere, but if some goober really feels the need to have a marginalized card that is only good in one matchup and run it as a 3-4of in their SB only to be met with Chant + win .... I guess that is their choice. Don't worry about Extract nor should you play it, SB slots are already tight as it is.

@lorddotm: I really don't like those lists at all. I hate LEDless but still, what were the matchups this thing beat in taking first place?

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

@lorddotm: I really don't like those lists at all. I hate LEDless but still, what were the matchups this thing beat in taking first place?

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2 Merfolk, 1 CB/Top, 2 TES, 1 Ichorid, 1 Goblins, 1 Dreadstill

I agree, I personally don't really like this list, but it did put up the result, so maybe its worth looking at (he got it from a friend in Portland who supposedly is doing really well with the list).

And could you post your sideboarding for every matchup?

I don't have your exact sideboard, but it would be helpful in seeing what you thing is worth it (I'm actually making a transition from TES to PFH (I dubbed the UBwg AdN/DD Hybrid PFH or pulp_fiction Hybrid).

Lastly, what kind of metagame would TES be better in than PFH or NLS. And where is NLS better than PFH and vise versa.

Bahamuth and PF: thanks to both for the answers. My concerns are essentially about the 4th colour and Merfolks. I played some matches against Countertop shits and I felt the really difference between destroying CB and bouncing it, and that's pretty much an abysmal difference. I also like the fact that green opens Xantid Swarm, which is really a huge tool against Merfolks. But i think I'm nOT going to pack the single Bayou, because I like to have as much U-lands as possible to cantrip. Perhaps a configuration like this:

8 fetchlands
2 USea
2 Tundras
1 Scrubland (too good to me not to be included, there have been many times when I needed it).
1 Tropical
1 Island

Could work fine. Of course there's another Trop in the side to help against those matchups where I'd heavily board in green cards. And so we come to Merfolks, and all the doubts i have reguarding this matchup:
I noticed that you are used to board out AdNauseam in favor of a straight DD configuration. But Doomsday, despites requiring less acceleration pieces, is almost always a SDT dependant engine. Ok, you have other cantrips, but i'm used to abuse BS and Ponder as setup spells to build the combo hand , not to keep them in favor of a future Doomsday. The point I've noticed several times is that sometimes straight Doomsday isn't the best option against Blue: you open hands with several protections and accelerations, and a Mystical. Now, in this case AdNauseam would be an instant auto-win if cast early, while with DD i have to wait until i find a cantrip. I'm really unsure about the effectiveness of this SB strategy, especially against decks packing a fast clock ala Merfolks. Also, the other thing which makes me a bit skeleptical about sb'ing out AdN against Merfolks is that we're NOT usually going to board in KGrips, but, on the cotnrary, we're also boarding out that single one maindeck in favor of Chain of Vapor, Xantid Swarm /PoN or even a Slaughter Pact (you'll laugh, but it gets rid of Cursecatcher, which is a really important factor). So the deck's manacurve gets even lower, meaning AdNauseam could be more performing.

Also, concerning the Sideboard: I think that 3x Krosan Grip in sb in addition to the one already MD are just too much. I'm also perplex about the lack of Wipe Away because there are times against certain decks when they have a CB OR a HateBear (sided in), so Wipe Away in here is a hit-both, while with only KGrips you're forced to sb in more anti-hate cards like Slaughter Pact. The decks I'm referring to are the usual crap like Bant which usually board in Gaddock Teeg, and play CB maindeck (well, it seems at least that Bant's trend in these last times is to go more towards the aggroish direction, luckily).

About the basics land in the sideboard: plains or swamp? While plains is really great because it's the powerhouse from which all our 6 chants are cast, against Tempo Threshold and Merfolks, Swamp is more important because is the colour which give access to the real combo cards, and the storm engines. I'm also thinking that there are (few, but still existing) situations when having a Swamp is a good thing, i.e. against Moon effects. But I'll guess it's a risk to be run.


So, i'll hope we can talk a bit about why to sb and not to sb certain cards against these matchups. As for now, by packing green i crafted this sideboard (considering that Stax seems to show up quite regularly in my meta):

1 Plains/Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Chain of vapor
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Disenchant
1 Pact of Negation
2 Doomsday

When playing this list:

4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
3x Krosan Grip
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
1x Silence
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains

This is how I would board against blue control without CB:

-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 KGrip, -1 Lotus Petal and +2 Doomsday, +2 Swarm, +1 Silence

Against Thresh with CB in it:

-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 IT, -2 Lotus Petal and +2 Doomsday, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Silence

I also will intermittently bring in 1-2 Swarms in this matchup. The people I play against expect that I will just bring it in and sometimes I do, but the count usually varies, I just try to mix it up and keep them on their toes so they keep their pointless StPs in!

And if it is against Canadian -1 Bayou and +1 Plains OR you can cut an additional Lotus Petal or Cabal Ritual for the Plains upping land count to 16.

Against Merfolk:

-1 Ad Nauseam, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Grip, -2 Petal, and +2 Swarm, +1 Silence, +1 Plains, and +2 Doomsday. This is where Swarm shines, they have no possible answer for it

Aggro is basically all the same but it depends on what you expect, just cut Krosan Grip first then any number of Chants (unless you expect Mindbreak Trap) and put in Disenchants and Chains and Slaughter Pact to handle Teeg, Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc.

Against combo mirror:

-1 Petal/Chrome Mox, -1 Grip, -1 Ponder and +2 Swarm and +1 Silence. Some people like Grip here to handle Top or artifacts dropped early or on mistake but I don't think it is worth it, the only time you will kill an LED is if they are trying to play 2 of them, you never get priotiry unless they are stupid and play LED then Dark Ritual ... even then, Grip fucks up AdN by adding a bunch of +3 CC to the mix.

Just something of note, emidln mentioned on the stormboards that he always like to up the land count to 16 in the blue matchups. Also something to consider, just try everything and see what works for you. In some matchups you may prefer having 4x Lotus Petals and no Cabal Rituals, this is just how I like to board, there really isn’t a 100% correct way to SB, just what works for you and wins games!

@lorddotm: I like PFH :smile:

This SB is slightly tweaked from last time I played. Running 3x Grip I lost 2 games in a row due to an inability to find the damn thing while looking at a shuffled top 3 around 4 times and a Ponder … so I upped it to 4. Cutting down on the Swarm count, oftentimes the threat is enough and I would much prefer to board in 1x Swarm and 1x Silence against Thresh and having the 7th Chant against Landstill just makes the matchup that much easier.

I currently have a ton of work to do, and I will address the stuff asked a little earlier when I finish.

Hello all, I'd like to talk to Kim Kluck about his list, which is in my opinion the best one, does anybody meet him or knows his name.
Thanks.

i agree, kim list is awesome and i would like to know which card is the 15th in his sb from Magickeller Hannover tournment in september

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29258

thanxs

I'd like somebody to explain me how exactly to sideboard with the deck ANT from Klim about the link above, vs the different decks in the meta:

canadian
counterbalance decks
landstill
moon /stax
team america
B/W deadguyale
...

thanks

Why does he run Grips in his board? does wipeaway not accomplish the same thing without having to being in an extra land and mess with the mana base? If you want to add lands to the SB for some MUs fine but adding green just seems greedy.


Also is the plan if you are running Confidant in your SB to generate card advantage and then ritual ritual cantrip tendrils for a few and then generate more advantage with Confidant and do it again in 1 or 2 turns? If so then i would recommend adding at least 1 more tendrils to the board so you can accomplish this.

Wipe is temporary. Grip is permanent. It's really not a big deal between fetches and Lotus Petal.

One reason to run Confidant I've found is to have them board out their creature hate and then you bring them in. They act as a mini Ad Nauseam and also put a small clock on them. Between attacking for 2 and getting an extra card a turn, you can easily steal game 2.

Going Underground Sea, Dark Ritual, Duress, Dark Confidant is priceless.

On a dedicated Ad Nauseam it looks fine, everything is optimized for minimal damage with Ad Nauseam. I always wondered why people stopped using it.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Going Underground Sea, Dark Ritual, Duress, Dark Confidant is priceless.

On a dedicated Ad Nauseam it looks fine, everything is optimized for minimal damage with Ad Nauseam. I always wondered why people stopped using it.

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In my experience, Dark Confidant is best against dedicated control, which is nearly extinct. It's great but also slow; it takes full two turns to draw an extra card, and the metagame is ripe with decks that will have attacked with multiple 2/3's or Goyf/Stalker by that time.
Basically, it's a mini-AdN that takes a few turns to go online easily take forever to go online in a metagame where that's not fast enough against many decks.

Plus, Silence got printed.

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Originally Posted by Noman Peopled

In my experience, Dark Confidant is best against dedicated control, which is nearly extinct. It's great but also slow; it takes full two turns to draw an extra card, and the metagame is ripe with decks that will have attacked with multiple 2/3's or Goyf/Stalker by that time.
Basically, it's a mini-AdN that takes a few turns to go online easily take forever to go online in a metagame where that's not fast enough against many decks.

Plus, Silence got printed.

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I think it's boarded for that reason. It wouldn't come in against decks with tons of removal, like versus Zoo or something it's clearly never going to come in. Versus dedicated control it shines, but also decks like Canadian Thresh or Eva Green or something, they might board out a chunk of their limited removal, then it could come in to dig you into a strong enough grip to go off.

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

I think it's boarded for that reason. It wouldn't come in against decks with tons of removal, like versus Zoo or something it's clearly never going to come in. Versus dedicated control it shines, but also decks like Canadian Thresh or Eva Green or something, they might board out a chunk of their limited removal, then it could come in to dig you into a strong enough grip to go off.

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That's my point, CThresh or Eva Green can both start attacking early. Three turns is a long time against an opponent with Goyfs, Stalkers, and disruption. They'll be happy you're not drawing cards now but later, and swing in.
Sure, t1 it's great ... but maybe you just paid a card to get additional cards a turn earlier (admittedly, quite possibly with one less storm copy necessary).

Two ANT decks in the Worlds 2009 Top4
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...68&postcount=1

One UB Mainboard + G sideboard for Krosan Grip, the other UBW Mainboard + R sideboard for Blasts

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Originally Posted by Gocho

Two ANT decks in the Worlds 2009 Top4
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...68&postcount=1

One UB Mainboard + G sideboard for Krosan Grip, the other UBW Mainboard + R sideboard for Blasts

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Splitting between Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast in a Storm-based deck makes me :cry:. Once a Tempo Thresh-player lost to me (with ANT), beeing unable to give his Nimble Mongoose Threshold for two rounds, because of holding two "useless" REBs in hand. As if anyone is going to set Meddling Mage on Pyroblast or plays Extirpate on it, against any of these two matchups.


Greetz, K1LO

how important is the main decked answer to CB?

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Originally Posted by undone

how important is the main decked answer to CB?

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That largely depends on your metagame and then your individual matchups in a room. 2 out of the 3 lists that did well at the Dutch Championships didn't play any solution at all maindeck (sb 3 KGrips if I remember).

That's correct, even tho CB was the deck most present at the site.

This sunday I played the hybrid to a 3-1 record ending sixth due to tiebreakers (top4).

My only loss was vs solidarity. I have problems in how to play the match against this. (I had to mull both games because of 0 lands)

Yeah, playing against Solidarity is pretty though. I've played the matchup a lot (actually against other Tendrills combo, but that's almost the same). You need to make sure you are fast enough. You don't want to give them the option to combo in response to a Chant or a win. So you should win turn 1-3 or 1-4 on the play no matter what. If it's going to be unprotected, so be it.

By the way, who played Solidarity?

@waikiki: Hmmm, losing to Solidarity with 6 Chant effects, you must have just had terrible draws. I am guessing you had to mull into keepable hands rather than good ones since the deck was giving you nothing. That blows, but I never found this to be a tough matchup. I think Spring Tide is a lot harder since they have so many ways to find High Tide and are a little more consistent in their combo (and I have seen them go off on turn 2).

Against Solidarity game 1 just look for any hand with Top, Chant, land and work on sculpting a good hand or clearly any savagely aggressive hand with protection. Just wait for the High Tide and Chant them in response. If they counter the first Chant and you have a second you can let the High Tide resolve then Chant them in response to the next spell they play but I wouldn't, I would just Chant them again with Tide on the stack, these decks do crazy things when that shit resolves so just don't give them a chance! In this matchup I much prefer to wait for them to make a move rather than vice versa. I would rather watch them expend their resources into double Chant and then safely combo out the next turn or so rather than be the one to combo out, but it really depends on the strength of your hand, also, don't be afraid to hold back Mystical with Top in play or even MT for Chant on turn 1 just to show them you got something.

Especially if you already have a Chant in hand it makes them think you don't have another and this can have 2 effects: 1) they play right into you expecting just a single chant and you ravage them or 2) it buys you a lot of extra turns while they try and setup with Chant effects and you get to sculpt the perfect hand with Top/cantrips. This is another great matchup where Swarm shines from the board! If they don't force it ... thats basically game unless you really have nothing to do and they have enough time to Cryptic Command in back to your hand then combo off.

wait solidarity out?

Sorry Pulp_Fiction, but that sounds like a realy bad play. The more you wait, the more lands i get to play, and the better my outs to combo off are.

Actually, the only games i lost against ANT and other combodecks is when they are to fast for me to handle. When i have the resources, and we start to battle on the stack, solidarity wins allmost every time. So i totaly agree with Bahamuth on this point.

And about waiting for the hight tide. If your opponent play tide, not in response to you going off, or your chant, its probably a pretty bad solidarity player.

dudes i would like your help

i have the deck but i never sideboarded or actually played a lot with how do you side?

i'm playing kim kluck's list....


thanxs

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Originally Posted by emidln

That largely depends on your metagame and then your individual matchups in a room. 2 out of the 3 lists that did well at the Dutch Championships didn't play any solution at all maindeck (sb 3 KGrips if I remember).

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3 out of 3 that made T8 did not play bounce/Grp main.

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Originally Posted by cjva

wait solidarity out?

Sorry Pulp_Fiction, but that sounds like a realy bad play. The more you wait, the more lands i get to play, and the better my outs to combo off are.

Actually, the only games i lost against ANT and other combodecks is when they are to fast for me to handle. When i have the resources, and we start to battle on the stack, solidarity wins allmost every time. So i totaly agree with Bahamuth on this point.

And about waiting for the hight tide. If your opponent play tide, not in response to you going off, or your chant, its probably a pretty bad solidarity player.

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Yes, effectively Chant is quite useless against a (good) Solidarity player because he will be able to leave it on the stack an proceed comboing out your ass. Chant may be effective only when he's low on resouces (i.e., in response to an untap effect with him without the Fow), but in general if the ANT player attempts to play the control role and to stop Solidarity, he either hasn't understood really much who has to attack and who has to stop the other, and will lose.
Perhaps double chant can do something if played at the right moment ( which, i guess, it's when the Solidarity player is resetting/turnabouting lands or when he's drawing..or in any case when he's short on mana to start comboing again ignoring the Chant). But at the time you had double chant, it would have been better to start comboing by yourself.

@the absence of Bounce/Grip: i think a traditional list of ANT w/Duresses can allow itself to not run that slot. With a list ala Pulp Fiction's one, Counterbalance can't be preventively discarded because of the presence of only Chants as protection spells, so i think that slot is kinda needed in that list to not completely roll over to Counterbalance/Trinisphere/(a bit less)Chalice game 1.

@The PFH: I already asked this question but perhaps no one listened to it, but I'd really like if anyone of you is missing Wipe Away. Not obviously because of CB, where Grip is totally superior, but those matchups with CounterTop where you're expecting your opponent to side in also some hate bears. I'm talking aboutProBant, UGW Threshold, and some builds of Landstill. Here I'm a bit perplex because i found myself in times when i board in KGrip and..wtf..on turn2 my oppo drops Gaddock-Fucking-Teeg or Meddling Mage on the table. And i hve no outs.
Considering this Sideboard, which is roughly emidln's one:

SB: 1 [A] Tropical Island
SB: 2 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [LRW] Plains (4)
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm

How would you side against , let's say, Pro Bant if you know he has CB but you also fear Teeg/Mage coming in? Without Wipe Away, I'm forced to bring in also Chain of Vapor or Slaughter Pact, diluting the combo core for more anti-hate.
Isn't possible to fit in a single Wipe Away for those matchups where you can't know what they'll side in?

I also find Goblin to be a tough matchup. It's stupid how much a fucking Thorn of Ametyst or a Pillar can give them that two turns to do lethal damage with Piledrivers. I know that for Combo Goblin should be a bye, but it's incredible how much they lucksack drawing the (few) pieces of hate they have.
Do you think it's good to keep Meditate in here ? It's too slow and risky. But , without it, also Doomsday gets invalidated. And AdNauseam is a gamble, since they can be fast as hell. The only decent thing is the IGG engine. I'm used to do -2 silences, -1 kgrip and to do +2 CoV and +1 Hurkyl's, but it seems that's not enough.
I don't know, it seems stupid decks wreck me all the time and the tough matchups are perfectly doable.

Hey everyone,

This is kinda 'last minute' message ;) I've decided to play with ANT on tournament tomorrow morning, despite my last bad performance with it (lost to CB/TOP, win to SmallPox, lost to Reanimator, lost to Merfolks, drop). I believe I am capable to play it a bit better today, but I still need your help - on choosing the version I'd like to play. Here are 2 versions I am considering:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29415
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29432

They are destinated for playing in heavy blue (Merfolks, small amount of CB/TOP and Landstills) and aggro environment (Zoo and Goblins) with small amount of random deck (Dredge, RedBurn, Slivers, Reanimator and so on).

My main issues are blue matchups. How do you sideboard with them? What to take out and what to bring in? How does Volcanic Island+Pyroblast works agains Merfolks and their wastelands? Do you go off as soon as possible, or rather wait paying life for their attacks unless you have one or more protection (Orim's Chant?).

And by the way, what do you think about playing double Ad Nauseam? What is the purpose of it? Getting a slight chance to run the combo turn one? I found it limiting my resolved Ad Nauseam draws to 5 live, what sometimes is not enough to combo off lethal Tendrils due to lack of few cards (usually mana).

Additionally, if someone could summarize popular matchups sideboarding techniques I would really appreciate that! :)

Well, nobody responded, so I decided to play the version with 6 Chant effects as I seen it better against blue decks, and to play only one Ad Nauseam.
The results are nearly as bad as on previous tournaments, 2-1-3. Meeting four blue decks gave me 0-1-3 leaving me two wins with random burn decks.

Its unfair how they are suited well under any situation - Cursecatcher can stop Ad Nauseam without protection ant bite my lifes, and if I decide to wait and look for protection they get more and more counters. Volcanic Island + Pyroblast isnt even half that efficient as I hoped it to be due to wastelands.

I guess thats it for me and ANT. I've no idea how to win in my metagame with blue decks (Merfolks, Tresholds, CB/TOPs) so the tournaments are looking like pissing under the wind.
I'll have to drop ANT for something that either can smash blue or simply join it. It was great fun piloting such nice deck, tho.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spankme

Well, nobody responded, so I decided to play the version with 6 Chant effects as I seen it better against blue decks, and to play only one Ad Nauseam.
The results are nearly as bad as on previous tournaments, 2-1-3. Meeting four blue decks gave me 0-1-3 leaving me two wins with random burn decks.

Its unfair how they are suited well under any situation - Cursecatcher can stop Ad Nauseam without protection ant bite my lifes, and if I decide to wait and look for protection they get more and more counters. Volcanic Island + Pyroblast isnt even half that efficient as I hoped it to be due to wastelands.

I guess thats it for me and ANT. I've no idea how to win in my metagame with blue decks (Merfolks, Tresholds, CB/TOPs) so the tournaments are looking like pissing under the wind.
I'll have to drop ANT for something that either can smash blue or simply join it. It was great fun piloting such nice deck, tho.

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I wouldn't let go so easily. ANT is the strongest deck in the format right now. I suggest you take a look at the Doomsday Hybrid lists that have been posted in this threat earlier. With 6 Chant 4 Top main and something like Xantid Swarm on the board, I'm pretty sure you can get a positive Merfolk matchup, if you practise with the deck enough. I'm pretty sure the only really bad matchup we have right now, is Dreadstill. With the Hybrid with the right list, we have put up test results that were about even against CB/Top and pretty positive against Tempo Thresh.

If your meta is really completely blue, you perhaps should drop this deck and smash them with Landstill or something. If it isn't, don't.

That give me a question.

Bahamut, what cards go in anf out vs Blue Decks with the Hybrid list?

I understand that extra Doomsdays go in and ANT go out?

Seriously, read the thread. This has been discussed numerous times and you can find these SB answers one page back (pretty far I know). I really wish people would just stop posting unless they have some kind of a vague idea what combo is or how to play it. Let me set up a scenario, say you don't know how to play Belcher, look for the thread .... read, goldfish, repeat. THEN, based on prior experiences with the deck and some knowledge gained from reading and goldfishing, ask questions.

Dear Pulp Fiction,

I think you are missing few facts here.

First of all, the thread is long. Its long, so it is old. It is old, so the lists, sideboards, techs are not corresponding to live, changing meta, new cards, new decks, new trends. This is why people keep asking for lists/sideboards/techs against problematic matchups - because they want fresh answers that works today, not half year ago, before meta shifted with new expansion set.

Secong, the issues we have (personally, I do) are not tied to complete dorkness and lack of knowledge how to launch the combo against the wall. Believe me, I can win against with ANT against my wall with Darth Vader cinema poster 90:10 and even the Force wont help him. What I cant win is blue matchup, and this is something I can really simulate, even with Yoda poster wall facing Darth Vader. This is why we ask for things that can help, because we dont want to loose our standings, time and money to try out every single possible card in the format.

I thought this is what the forum and thread is for. And if everything has already been said in here, shouldnt it be closed?

With regards, spankme.

Dear Bahamuth,

My meta isnt entirely blue, but is blue heavy. Today's tournament took 18 people (we usually get around 24) and there were 4 merfolks, at least one CB/TOP, at least one Landstill, two burn decks, one loam, two burns, one goblins, two zoo's, and the rest I dont know.

Which particular list are you thinking of? What about sideboarding tech's against certain matchups?

CB decks are always going to be a difficult matchup for ANT. Merfolk, Tempo Thresh, Landstill, etc. are much more winnable, but can also be tough. The fact is, if you are in a really blue heavy metagame, it might be a long day for you.

When sideboarding against blue, it's important to just bring in a small number of key sideboard cards, but not take out too many cards that are important to the combo. I sometimes sideboard too much, and then it's difficult to get acceleration spells or business when you need it. Against CB, I usually replace some number of Duress with whatever extra Silences I have in the board, and bring in 3x Krosan Grips for 1 Duress, 1 IT, 1 Ponder or something like that. Against Merfolk or Tempo Thresh I bring in Silence for Duress and that's it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

When playing this list:

4x LED
4x Orim's Chant
4x Dark Ritual
4x Brainstorm
4x Top
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Lotus Petal
3x Infernal Tutor
2x Ponder
2x Cabal Ritual
2x Silence
2x Chrome Mox
1x Tendrils
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
1x IGG
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Doomsday

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Tropical Island
1x Island

Sideboard
3x Krosan Grip
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Disenchant
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Doomsday
1x Silence
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Plains

This is how I would board against blue control without CB:

-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 KGrip, -1 Lotus Petal and +2 Doomsday, +2 Swarm, +1 Silence

Against Thresh with CB in it:

-2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam, -1 IT, -2 Lotus Petal and +2 Doomsday, +3 Krosan Grip, +1 Silence

I also will intermittently bring in 1-2 Swarms in this matchup. The people I play against expect that I will just bring it in and sometimes I do, but the count usually varies, I just try to mix it up and keep them on their toes so they keep their pointless StPs in!

And if it is against Canadian -1 Bayou and +1 Plains OR you can cut an additional Lotus Petal or Cabal Ritual for the Plains upping land count to 16.

Against Merfolk:

-1 Ad Nauseam, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Grip, -2 Petal, and +2 Swarm, +1 Silence, +1 Plains, and +2 Doomsday. This is where Swarm shines, they have no possible answer for it

Aggro is basically all the same but it depends on what you expect, just cut Krosan Grip first then any number of Chants (unless you expect Mindbreak Trap) and put in Disenchants and Chains and Slaughter Pact to handle Teeg, Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc.

Against combo mirror:

-1 Petal/Chrome Mox, -1 Grip, -1 Ponder and +2 Swarm and +1 Silence. Some people like Grip here to handle Top or artifacts dropped early or on mistake but I don't think it is worth it, the only time you will kill an LED is if they are trying to play 2 of them, you never get priotiry unless they are stupid and play LED then Dark Ritual ... even then, Grip fucks up AdN by adding a bunch of +3 CC to the mix.

Just something of note, emidln mentioned on the stormboards that he always like to up the land count to 16 in the blue matchups. Also something to consider, just try everything and see what works for you. In some matchups you may prefer having 4x Lotus Petals and no Cabal Rituals, this is just how I like to board, there really isn’t a 100% correct way to SB, just what works for you and wins games!

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Honestly, it gets old. The whole point of reading the thread is to figure out all the ins and outs of a deck. "Outdated" info is not outdated if it makes you a better combo player. Someone who knows how to play IGGY Pop or FT can easily pilot ANT, why, because they understand the nature of storm combo and how it works. Thats what you get from reading a thread. Insight into playing a deck regardless of when it was posted.

But anyway, this was taken from page .... 61, just 1 page back. Quite sad but not suprising :(

My list is simlar to Pulp's. My manabase is 2 Tundra 2 Sea 1 Island 1 Trop 9 Fetch with an additional Trop sb instead of the Plains. I also run Echoing Truth instead of Disenchant and and additional Cabal Ritual instead of te Empty the Warrens I think. Oh, I also play a 3th Ponder mainboard instead of the Grip. I don't like the Grip mainboard unless your meta is really CB Heavy.

Spankme, against Merfolk, Xantid Swarm shines. If there's that much Merfolk in your meta, I'd consider playing 4 SB. They basically can't win anymore if you drop it and don't have an extremely crappy hand.

Also, Landstill is pretty much a bye. They don't have anything against you. You're much better at finding protection than they are at finding Counters. Their Standstills are pretty bad. If you have a Top in play, Standstill is going to be good for you, because that means they won't speel up their clock or anything.

I find this cycle amusing. At first, I would constantly repeat myself. Then I grew tired of it and Pulp_Fiction started repeating himself. After awhile, even he grew tired of it and now Bahamuth repeats himself. Who wants to bet when Bahamuth gets tired of repeating the same information? I have June 2010.