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That still isn't reason enough to warrant a banning. MMS doesn't tutor or ramp/enable anything and horrible in many situations. Show and Tell otoh does enable busted plays, acts as acceleration, at worst protects the permanent you want to put into play by eating counter magic (HM) and is very easy to splash and rarely a bad draw, yet I wouldn't want it banned either. At least not yet :)
Want a good way to break apart the Blue dominance in Legacy?
Unban Survival of the Fittest.
Surgical Extraction deals with the Vengevine threat pretty neatly, and allows non-VV decks to have a "combo" element again. Take for example the low level of Dredge hate in the latest SCG Open as proof that no one respects the graveyard anymore.
Extraction deals with VV but you still had to deal with Necrotic Ooze too. Or they could Therapy it out of your hand or whatnot. If we are in agreement that SotF was a problem I don't think that Surgical Extraction really is a good enough answer to Survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Survival does shit all over Blue, at least. There is that. :P
You are correct, until you mentioned some non sense about unbanning a three mana land in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
I would like MM banned just so we can have ANT or TES back. Yeah MM isn't as strong as counterbalance blah blah blah. Well what's worse with storm combo; fighting through counterwalls 7 out of 8 decks in any given tourney or fighting through counterbalance once or twice a tourney?
Anyway, wizards needs to unban Mind Twist. It has been on the ban list too long.
Despite Surgical Extraction, I think leaving Survival out there with the card that got it banned in the first place is dangerous. They should be interchanged at the very least.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Yep. Survival offers some nice deckbuilding options.
VengeVine on the other hand is either broken or trash, at the moment it's trash.
I do not understand why they didn't ban VV in the first place
The "there are worse card on the list" isn't really a viable argument. There are cards there that probably wouldn't even be played against cards that are omnipresent. That's the nature of a lot of eternal B/R lists. If that argument had to be done, then blue cards would have seen the axe at least twice as often as they currently do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
Misstep sucks.
The card is useless in type 2, so it must have been tailor-made for eternal formats.
I can only imagine all the blue mages getting raging hardons the moment they saw the card. Finally (another) free blue counterspell that answers both Vial and Lackey. Finally after years and years of bitching, whining about how its stupid to lose to T1 plays, even though there already were lots of answers to it. Now finally blue can beat Combo and Aggro, all with the same cards. Skill bro.
Now what red cards are played anymore besides Bolt, CL and Lavamancer? Might as well ban the whole color besides those three. Red already was the shittiest color, blue already the best.
If i wanted to play combo/control decks all day i'd play type 1.
Its still old blue cards that keeps blue in such a lead. Just look at blue cards with the old frame. Brainstorm, FOW, Daze, SnT and more. Powerlevel between the colors that are printed now are quite even, doubt other colors are ever gonna be able to get up there. There are just so many blue misstakes they printed with the old frame.
True, but blue was never as opressive as it is now. There were always niche cards that could challenge blue's dominance (Vial).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizso
Blue has been nr1 color ever sense old extended with duals died, Brainstorm and fow was king there as well, format with Oath of Druids, necrodonate etc.
Its the splashing with duals that makes blue so strong as well as old blue powerhouses. The possibility to run best of everything and have Brainstorm, preordain / ponder to filter the decks just adds to the fire. Also printing the best planeswalker in blue was a misstake.
We are seeing 2-4 color blue decks everywhere. Just like old extended where one of the best decks where 5-colored blue. Thought then they didnt have easy splashable creatures like Tarmogoyfs, Stoneforge Mystics, Dark Confidants and Tombstalker.
Just look at the banlist, remove all ant cards, you see the list is filled with blue and black misstakes over the years.
Currently banning of any cards isnt an option. Much better option would be printing some real anti blue cards. Hopefully something blue decks just cant splash and filter their ways to. Like they do with Pyroblast and REB.
Gamblers dont like to adopt to change, Misstep forces players to rethink their playing habits. such as, If I brainstorm on turn 1 will it get countered?Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
Force of Will is a good counterspell but because players has to remove another blue card, it forces player to make hard choices. Mental Misstep requires no hard choices, I have the MM in my hand and your going to brainstorm, not today (I'll Misstep that).
I think banning MM is a bad move.
Brazilian here, English is my second language.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
By "mess" I meant all over the place, it felt like every deck had a chance. There was actually a top 16 in SCG where all 16 list were different (there were like 3 NO decks, but they all used different strategies).
After MM, the format quickly tightned into "blue beats all, not playing blue is dumb".
My final point is that MM is such a powerful card that it forces the format to revolve around it. You can try to escape it by playing higher mana or the likes, but then the natural "rules" of the format just drag you down back to reality with Wasteland, Daze, etc.
QFT. When a card warps the format so severely around itself, something needs to be done. Even Mystical Tutor didn't inspire this level of homogeneity in the format (there weren't a large number of viable decks, but there was greater variety among them). Misstep breaks the (cliche I now) "rock, paper, scissors" philosophy. Now blue-based control and aggro control generally beats both aggro and combo (with rare exceptions, see Hive Mind). As a result, there's no real reason to play a non-blue deck. The format right now actually reminds me of Kamigawa block standard, where (regardless of what deck you were playing) it was "play Jitte or bust." If you weren't playing it, you lost to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by alderon666
Blue based aggro-control beats aggro, really? Have you ever tried playing either rug or stoneblade against zoo? And if so, which versions?
In my experience rug is screwed if it doesn't land a 3rd turn NO, and stoneblade has some serious problems between qasali and library.
Also, you know, maverik is still a real deck.
From the last four SCG opens:Quote:
Originally Posted by 3eowulf
U/W Stoneblade: 62.5% win percentage vs. Zoo
NO RUG: 48.39% win percentage vs. Zoo
Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...acy_Opens.html
I see one coin-flip matchup and one strongly favored matchup against Zoo from the two pre-eminent blue aggro-control decks, so I have no idea what the fuck you are trying to say in that post.
And Maverick makes up about 1% of the meta currently. So much for it actually being a factor.
I've quit Magic around 2001 and tried to come back twice after Legacy came to be. Both times I failed because I've been a blue player, I like playing control decks but both times been repelled by how blue and control was placed in the metagame.
I finally got back and started playing Legacy after Mental Misstep was printed because now I could once again play decent control decks (I really disliked how countertop played) like BUG Jacestill or UW Landstill (without the SFM). If they ban MM blue will still continue to dominate the format as the leading support color with FoWs, Brainstorms, Dazes but we will lose the oldschool control decks again.
If people are fed-up with NO RUG and UW Stoneblade decks than they should play Maverick and Zoo more. I've said it before somewhere but in this metagame even Burn would do well as both of these hated blue decks can counter only so many spells and don't have much of a clock.
I think the combo-aggro-control balance of the current metagame is quite good and the prevalance of NO RUG and UW Stoneblade is due to these decks being both strong and fun to play. Mental Misstep is only the scapegoat.
I don't see how playing more maverick or Zoo will help against stoneblade or no rug.
Maverick just gets owned by stoneblade because all their cards are really good against it. And a Jace who hit the board will probably win the game single-handedly => it will just bounce the 1 fat guy you have on board and then mav has no way to deal with it.
NO rug is more even with the sideboard, but maverick definitely hates fire/ice and grim lavamancer, and can only count on mindcensors/ silver bullets to deal with the NO plan
I was "fucking" saying that maybe the zoo decks played at SGC Opens might have to adapt a bit more to the metagame (i.e. their plan against stoneblade is just to burn the mystic before batterskull comes down, and each of their creatures is smaller).Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Also maverick, while representig just 1% of the meta (where did this come from?!?) looks like it's really overperforming (if your 1% figure is right).
Was I clear enough or do I have to make you a drawing?
Take it easy. I know you're responding to a harshly worded post, but let's keep it from turning into a slugfest. Same goes for Admiral Arzar. -zilla
This. Instead of the community asking for cards to be banned I would prefer we try and influence WotC to print good, hard to splash cards in nonblue colors. Again, powerful cards are the REASON to play Legacy. Lets not take this away but rather demand for a better balance in power between the colors, because the problem is not blues power level so much as the other colors lack of.Quote:
Currently banning of any cards isnt an option. Much better option would be printing some real anti blue cards. Hopefully something blue decks just cant splash and filter their ways to. Like they do with Pyroblast and REB.
Lately it seems that WotC is willing to break the color rules on blues behalf, well perhaps its time they began giving colors like red access to blues specialties. Why not some worthwhile red library manipulation,card draw or even counter magic? In fact why isnt Snapcaster Mage red? That was a missed opportunity IMO but perhaps if we focus our efforts on this rather than bannings we may see some better results? IDK.
Not true and instead the other way round. Maverick, owns Stoneblade pretty easily. It's just not a popular deck in the USA.Quote:
Originally Posted by r0ckstAr
Every card in Maverick is card advantage, and that Batterskull/SFM is incredibly hard to stick. If you do tap out for a Jace, be prepared that the Jace is going to die real soon to a bunch of utility dorks. Maverick is a weird beast, and the US metagame doesn't like playing weird beasts for most parts.
DUH!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
R&D loves them the color :u:. There's not other reasonable or logical explanation as to why Blue gets goodies, and all the other colors get "casual" oriented cards.
EDIT: rather than making a double post...
The Maverick vs. Stoneblade match is probably close to 55/45 pre-board, and 65/35 post-board. Their deck isn't equipped to deal with the constant stream of threats that Maverick can dish out. I do agree that it's an anomaly that US metagame doesn't feature more Maverick - perhaps it's really as Mr. Elgin describes, where the masses copy the latest T8 decks from SCG and play them ad nauseam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
Heres a cool card I just came up with for shiz and giggles...perhaps WotC could do something like this:
http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/p...msonPariah.jpg
The last time I'd asked wizards to stop banning cards was durring the hot button issue on "restricting mana drain" to balance type 1.5. Myself and a bunch of other attempted to work on format called 1.75 which was later dropped when Wizards announces the new Legacy format (ok it wasnt called legacy back then but the new ban list was something we were looking for)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
I've also always had a problem with Wizards being DCI. Wizards should be in the job of making cards, they shouldnt have the job to determine if the card is broken and/or should be banned.
I love power cards, the newer always keeps the format (any format) intresting.Quote:
Again, powerful cards are the REASON to play Legacy. Lets not take this away but rather demand for a better balance in power between the colors, because the problem is not blues power level so much as the other colors lack of.
Blue is always powerful because it plays upon the opponents mind; because good blue mages dont painic understress; they can handle 2 life.Quote:
Lately it seems that WotC is willing to break the color rules on blues behalf, well perhaps its time they began giving colors like red access to blues specialties.
Red has the best 1 card combo ~ Fiery Gambit all you need is 3 lucky coin flips. Although when we spend money in playing a tournament we try not to rely upon luck.Quote:
Why not some worthwhile red library manipulation,card draw or even counter magic?
First, Snapcaster is freaking overrated. Burn isnt going to play him, he pops into play on turn 3 (no haste) to flashback a bolt... at that point you want to drop 6 or 9 damage. He's not going to see blue especially if his usefulness is based upon flashbacking a Misstep (which looks like it might be banned) or a Brainstorm; doubtfully somebody is going to drop him to recast a coutnerspell, sure it can happen but 4 mana is heavy. High Tide wants to play him but they cannot and he's not green for NO RUG.Quote:
In fact why isnt Snapcaster Mage red? That was a missed opportunity IMO but perhaps if we focus our efforts on this rather than bannings we may see some better results? IDK.
The funny thing is you will be forced to run your own Mental Missteps to protect this guy from the blue player's Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolts. Seems like a cool card though. I like the name.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
I have a secret to beating Mental Misstep. Are you ready for it? Here it is... don't play cards with CMC 1!
In all seriousness though, I think people are overstating MM's "negative" impact on the metagame and I don't think it should be getting the axe, at least not so soon. The card has shifted the format towards slower decks and actually gives control a chance to be prominent. Other than Countertop, control decks (namely the blue based ones like Stoneblade and Landstill) have been largely absent from Legacy over the last couple of years. If MM is banned, we are looking at another combo-heavy metagame, as decks will have lost a ubiquitous answer to Ritual, High Tide, Entomb, and other single-costed combo goodies. I might be in the minority, but I would rather play against the slower control builds of today than possibly not having a second turn and watching my opponent masturbate. Aether Vial is another overpowered card that all decks should have a fair answer to IMO. Also, one of the main deterents of the format I have heard from non-Legacy players looking in is the prevalence of such combo decks. I think it would be a mistake to allow that type of metagme to re-emerge; it is fine the way it is now and will be changing as people adapt to the Misstep.
When brainstorming decks on MWS, I now sometimes change my card choices with Misstep in mind. For example, in a GWB Junk deck, I may decide to use Go for the Throat instead of Path to Exile simply for the CMC of 2. These kinds of changes are a good thing for the format, and could actually increase card diversity if people are willing to adapt.
Actually, the secret of beating MM is to play redundant 1cc spells. It's basically the same principle behind Wasteland and Dual Lands.
And then Proclamation of Rebirth for the win.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
It can punish blue players more with: All spells cost 1 more to cast if controlling an Island.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
That would mean a blue player cant just splash it into their deck to punish their opponents in the mirror etc.
Shhh! That's another secret that people haven't figured out yet! But that would leave you really vulnerable to a Chalice of the Void set to 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
So basically painter's servant is this guy's worst enemy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
I fail to see how that's any better than Chill with Painter.
Read anathema.. "If at any time you control an island or blue permanent, sacrifice all islands and blue permanents you control."Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Painter's servant can make everything you and your opponent control (in and out of play etc etc) blue, so if your opponent has a crimson pariah in play and you play a painter naming blue they would be forced to sacrifice everything they had in play.
when they should announce the new B/R?
It seems on the 20th or the first monday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elle
Though there are hints from the mothership that is suggesting that Misstep is going to be banned. [I disagree but there is nothing I can do about it]
So my guess is that by next year Brainstorm and Natural Order will be banned.
But there is no offical word on what card is going to be banned so my fingers is crossed that wizards is legacy wise and realize that Misstep isnt the problem but Brainstorm is the problem.
Typically the 20th, so next tuesday?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elle
No, I completely understand the interaction, but fail to see how playing :r:+Painter(:u:)is better than running :u:+Painter(:r:)+Chill. Regardless, we're discussing a hypothetical overpowered hatebear. Thorn of Amethyst also performs the same role, and is accessible for each color.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfstorm
I came up with that card on short order but yes my intention was to make something aggressive enough to be worth considering by aggro strategies that slows blue and cant be splashed by blue. This does all those things so hooray beer. Ya painters servant kicks his ass and I kinda like that interaction. I guess the controller could always bolt the lil' guy in response.
The fact that painter+chill is better is irrelevant because that combo is played by blue mages. This card would most likely not be. Also the effect is asymetrical because this cards controller would not be running blue so thorn doesnt exactly do the same thing. Anyway ya hypothetical card so its too bad we'll never find out how he works.
@Lancer, bstorm is not the problem, that is all.
lol... wait until Mental Misstep is banned... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk