[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

Playing Tao's list online last night, came across a weird version of the deck. It was GUb with intuitions, brainstorms, jace, palinchron, recurring nightmare, kokusho, therapy, explorer, eternal witness, and phantasmal image

I totally punted.

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The more lategame stuff you cram into the deck, the better it gets in the lategame of course. But the RUG and Maverick matchups suffer a lot from most of the cards you named so I don't think going to deep is the way to go in the current Meta. But in general Punishing Fire is quite good in the mirror, you have a lot of Mana and he has no real way to deal with it in game 1 (Game 2 often won't finish anyway).

I added 2 Liliana of the Veil for an Innocent Blood and a Punishing Fire. It feels like an improvement because the deck needed a bit more threats in controllish matchups. How was the deck doing in general for you?

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Originally Posted by Tao

The more lategame stuff you cram into the deck, the better it gets in the lategame of course. But the RUG and Maverick matchups suffer a lot from most of the cards you named so I don't think going to deep is the way to go in the current Meta. But in general Punishing Fire is quite good in the mirror, you have a lot of Mana and he has no real way to deal with it in game 1 (Game 2 often won't finish anyway).

I added 2 Liliana of the Veil for an Innocent Blood and a Punishing Fire. It feels like an improvement because the deck needed a bit more threats in controllish matchups. How was the deck doing in general for you?

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I've been building GBw for almost a month and immediately dumped it for GBr!

Seriously with Terminus on the rise Sigarda isn't as great as I feel everyone is making her out to be. She's a great finisher, don't get me wrong, but she doesn't provide A: card advantage (token makers/witness) or B: extreme utility (ooze) She can't regenerate, and doesn't have vigilance or anything. At least broodmate can swing for 4 while holding back a blocker.

Plus Show and tell is such a beating that I think the only way this deck can hope to survive it is on the stack (blasts)

I haven't quite gotten the hang of the Huntmasters though. Still learning the card.


regarding playing the blue mirror:

I forgot that I had a grove in the graveyard when he brought out the phantasmal -> Kokusho engine and I think we both forgot about image's targeting clause, because I was thinking since it was a 5/5 it can't be killed by a fire in response to him re-casting recurring nightmare.

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

Playing Tao's list online last night, came across a weird version of the deck. It was GUb with intuitions, brainstorms, jace, palinchron, recurring nightmare, kokusho, therapy, explorer, eternal witness, and phantasmal image

I totally punted.

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Yeah I played against that same BUG explorer too it went something like this....no Green Sun Zenith though.

2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Confidant
3 Eternal Witness
2 Forest
4 Intuition
3 Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Palinchron
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Recurring Nightmare
3 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Unearth
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Veteran Explorer

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Originally Posted by LazyEyes

Yeah I played against that same BUG explorer too it went something like this....no Green Sun Zenith though.

2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Confidant
3 Eternal Witness
2 Forest
4 Intuition
3 Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Palinchron
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Recurring Nightmare
3 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Unearth
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Veteran Explorer

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The palinchron here is a means for infinite mana? I don't really understand what that is supposed to accomplish, unless the goal is to infinite them out with Kokusho.

Palinchron + Phantasmal Image is infinite mana (if you have seven lands, anyway). If you add Recurring Nightmare, you can infinite them.

Making infinite mana in many decks would be incredible because it would let you play a bunch of expensive cards. If you've already got 7 lands, I question the utility.

The goal seems to be to produce infinite Mana with either Recurring Nightmare + Palinchron or Phantasmal Image + Palinchron. Intuition is a key card. Then use the Mana to go infinite with Witness / Recurring Nightmare to play your whole graveyard again (infinite Brainstorm or Intuition) and kill with Kokusho. Should go without saying that this version just dies to RUG. Also Dark Confidant is bad in this deck, even more in a version that already has Jace, Brainstorm, Nightmare, Intuition and Unearth. But I won't say it is a bad idea in general, it just needs fixing. Cutting Confidants should be step#1.

Cast palinchron, untap.
Cast Recurring nightmare
Recur e-witness, target brainstorm
cast brainstorm
cast Recurring nightmare
Recur palinchron, untap

repeat. Draw through your deck until you hit a kokusho

It's very susceptible to extirpate, but then they can just drop jace.

I was sitting there wondering why in the heck he was imaging my explorers until he starts pulling out more basics than I had! Ugh!

One extremely cool thing about Intuition that I remember from playing GBu Survival is that it can grab 3 Cabal Therapies to annihilate hands which is great against Combo and very useful against Control. The deck seems interesting.

I really don't understand the Confidants though. They should be GSZs, 100%. With so many Recurring Nightmares Explorer is more important for his version than for normal Nic Fit. For example in your game, relying on your opponent to play Veteran Explorers to copy them seems not like the most reliable plan. It also grabs Witness which is a key card and with Fierce Empath it could even get the Plainchorn (Kokusho too).

If you generate a billion mana and are casting pallincron over and over, wouldn't you just cast something like blue sun's zenith or brain freeze?

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Originally Posted by hyperchord24

If you generate a billion mana and are casting pallincron over and over, wouldn't you just cast something like blue sun's zenith or brain freeze?

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Not a terrible idea considering with all the explorer mana you can emergency BSZ yourself for several cards as well

Maybe remove the bobs for a secondary kill.

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

Not a terrible idea considering with all the explorer mana you can emergency BSZ yourself for several cards as well

Maybe remove the bobs for a secondary kill.

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Seriously?

You're much better off playing something like Kamahl, Fist of Krosa (or something that can win you the game in 1 turn with infinite mana), at least it's zenithable and it actually -does- something when you're not going off... like alpha striking, making wrath effects quite unprofitable, or turning Pernicious Deed into a one-sided geddon

p.s. no, I'm not suggesting his inclusion, I don't really care about the deck either since I mainly play storm anyway, but seeing freeze as a possible inclusion made me wtf aloud in the office.

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Originally Posted by [reptiLe]

Seriously?

You're much better off playing something like Kamahl, Fist of Krosa (or something that can win you the game in 1 turn with infinite mana), at least it's zenithable and it actually -does- something when you're not going off... like alpha striking, making wrath effects quite unprofitable, or turning Pernicious Deed into a one-sided geddon

p.s. no, I'm not suggesting his inclusion, I don't really care about the deck either since I mainly play storm anyway, but seeing freeze as a possible inclusion made me wtf aloud in the office.

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What are you talking about? The deck doesn't even run GSZ, and it only needs one copy of BSZ in the deck. Does your boss know you're nerdraging at work?

Right, I skipped a step :P
My flow of thoughts started from this post:

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Originally Posted by Tao

I really don't understand the Confidants though. They should be GSZs, 100%.

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Since I agree I somehow went on reading giving it for granted :)
Ok, it's a singleton, but if you aren't playing gsz it'll be stuck in your hand more often than it being actually useful (i.e. winning games you otherwise wouldn't have won) because you're too short on mana for it to make any difference

In any case, just random opinions, didn't mean to bash if that was the idea I gave.

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

Does your boss know you're nerdraging at work?

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Luckily I was at home by the time I read this one, a wtf can somehow be explained, a LoL is much tougher :P

I just pictured some dude in my office going nuts about a post someone made on a website... "Brain freeze? WTF is he thinking? OMG NOOB" <table flip> haha


p.s. I think the BSzenith would be better than brain freeze since you can emergency target yourself if needed.

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Originally Posted by [reptiLe]

Right, I skipped a step :P
My flow of thoughts started from this post:



Since I agree I somehow went on reading giving it for granted :)
Ok, it's a singleton, but if you aren't playing gsz it'll be stuck in your hand more often than it being actually useful (i.e. winning games you otherwise wouldn't have won) because you're too short on mana for it to make any difference

In any case, just random opinions, didn't mean to bash if that was the idea I gave.


Luckily I was at home by the time I read this one, a wtf can somehow be explained, a LoL is much tougher :P

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Hey guys.

I thought i'd chime in as the thread seems a bit 'bluer' than before, so I feel as though I can share my list. I was working on a rock list, with a blue splash for gifts ungiven for a little while, then was quite pleased when someone won something with something similar (minus the splash for gifts), and it'd be great to get some feedback from people with more experience of the deck. I've very consciously tried to keep it as focused as possible, and there are no 'Timmy' style kills, just using gifts for value or to set up graveyard shenanigans. So here it is:

3 Sensei's divining top

2 Academy rector
1 Deranged hermit
1 Dryad arbour
2 Eternal witness
1 Grave titan
1 Kitchen finks
1 Sun titan
4 Veteran explorer
2 Wall of blossoms

1 Oblivion ring
3 Pernicious deed
1 Recurring nightmare

3 Gifts ungiven
1 Path to exile
1 Swords to plowshares

4 Cabal therepy
2 Green sun's zenith
3 Innocent blood
1 Maelstorm pulse

3 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
2 Phyrexian tower
2 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Tropical island
4 Verdent catacombs
2 Windswept heath

Sideboard (largely terribad)
1 Tormod's crypt
3 Ethersworn cannonist
1 Gaddock teeg
3 Kitchen finks
1 Orzhov pontiff
1 Wickerbough elder
1 Leyline of the void
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical extraction
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize

This is about the 4th serious effort at the deck, and I did a lot of testing. A 'standard' gifts pile (vs aggro, say) would be Sun titan (I like to call him a FUN titan) / Eternal witness / Deed / Recurring nightmare, which works at 6 mana, so it makes gifts one of the most awesome topdecks, enabling a complete set up of graveyard and hand in one shot. It also has emergency uses i.e. Swords / path / innocent blood / pulse and some more .... esoteric piles. In my mind the 'free' slots in the deck are the 2nd wall of blossoms and the grave titan (maybe these should be something else, like an ooze and a green sun or something...). Its also possible that the 2nd tower could be a volraths stronghold, but getting instant speed deeds from saccing rectors is literally insane. As I'm finding that they are actually really good at defending from swords to plowshares, because having creatures exiled is stronger vs me than more normal builds The deck is still weak to combo and a little bit bad against burn, so also if anyone could think of interesting piles vs them, that would be sweet. I even had 1 timely reinforcements on the board, which was actually really good. I wonder why I took it off? :). The finks are mainly on the board vs burn, but also I tend to board the gifts out g3 if they bring in loads of graveyard hate and put the finks in. It usually catches people out....

So please please, comments / suggestions / non-Timmy ideas ideas really welcome. Do we really just have to autolose to combo? :(

The Spanish Tunnel King

We most certainly don't have an auto-lose to combo, at least my list doesn't. Post-board I am packing 4x Duress, 2x Hymn, 3x Surgical Extraction, 4x Cabal Therapy, and crypts depending on the deck..

Blue is an interesting splash, though I probably wouldn't opt for Gifts Ungiven, I'd be packing Fact or Fiction, which is something a list earlier had been running to what he said good effect. I have yet to test that build though, Fact or Fiction does seem to provide an absurd benefit to the deck. I often find that my only real "issue" is that I start top decking against Stoneblade while they do some assortment of: Brainstorm, fetch, snapcaster brainstorm, jace, brainstorm, stoneforge for sword of feast and famine, go nuts etc.

Although on second thought, Gifts Ungiven might be better than Fact or Fiction.. it guarantees you're getting what you want, and a pile like: Eternal Witness, Kokusho, Recurring Nightmare, Volrath's Stronghold would be rather nuts.

I would probably make a build of something like this:

//Creatures: 12
2x Eternal Witness
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Trygon Predator
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Grave Titan

//Spells: 20
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Gifts Ungiven
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deeds
2x Recurring Nightmare

//Planeswalkers: 5
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands: 23
2x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Island

(It feels really, really good when you just ballpark a list off the top of your head, then go back and count to see what you need to cut and you hit 60 cards exact :laugh:)

That actually looks rather effective.

@The Spanish Tunnel King: Running four colors just doesn't seem doable at the moment. Maybe you've found differently, but I've even had problems on three colors against some decks, i.e. Death and Taxes w/ Wasteland/Port.

Beyond that, it certainly doesn't seem bad. Gifts seems like a great card to grab part way through the game. My only real complaint about it would be it's weakness to graveyard hate and that it's too slow to help you stabilize against some of our poorer match-ups towards the beginning of the game.

Probably needs some tuning, but it certainly looks interesting.

In not-at-all-related news, I'm currently tuning a GBr list that focuses more on mana sinks than huge creatures, only running one that costs more than four. Instead, the ramp from Explorer can be used for things like additional SDT activations, Punishing Fire, and a couple other neat little tricks. I'll put it up here for you guys to take a look at when I'm done testing it a bit more.

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Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo

@The Spanish Tunnel King: Running four colors just doesn't seem doable at the moment. Maybe you've found differently, but I've even had problems on three colors against some decks, i.e. Death and Taxes w/ Wasteland/Port.

Beyond that, it certainly doesn't seem bad. Gifts seems like a great card to grab part way through the game. My only real complaint about it would be it's weakness to graveyard hate and that it's too slow to help you stabilize against some of our poorer match-ups towards the beginning of the game.

Probably needs some tuning, but it certainly looks interesting.

In not-at-all-related news, I'm currently tuning a GBr list that focuses more on mana sinks than huge creatures, only running one that costs more than four. Instead, the ramp from Explorer can be used for things like additional SDT activations, Punishing Fire, and a couple other neat little tricks. I'll put it up here for you guys to take a look at when I'm done testing it a bit more.

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I honestly feel that this may be one of the smarter approaches. I often look at my deck and really evaluate the use of big drops--I win almost every game on the back of Thrun + Sweepers and removal. Thrun is -always- my goal: destroy their hand, land thrun, win the game. Though if I went back to GBr I'd undoubtedly still drop a Broodmate Dragon in as I always felt that Broodmate Dragon was -far and away- the best finisher for the deck.

Red, to me, also has some of the best options against combo: Pyrostatic Pillar is an absolute bomb, as is REB.

I find that one of the highlights of running a Veteran Explorer setup is that we can pop deeds for stupidly high numbers, we can play and pop it for 3 or 4 on the same turn.

Punishing Fires seems really good too, I did limited testing with it and wasn't thrilled, but it sure does seem to answer things that we have a lot of problems dealing with (namely, planeswalkers).

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Originally Posted by Kich867

I honestly feel that this may be one of the smarter approaches. I often look at my deck and really evaluate the use of big drops--I win almost every game on the back of Thrun + Sweepers and removal. Thrun is -always- my goal: destroy their hand, land thrun, win the game. Though if I went back to GBr I'd undoubtedly still drop a Broodmate Dragon in as I always felt that Broodmate Dragon was -far and away- the best finisher for the deck.

Red, to me, also has some of the best options against combo: Pyrostatic Pillar is an absolute bomb, as is REB.

I find that one of the highlights of running a Veteran Explorer setup is that we can pop deeds for stupidly high numbers, we can play and pop it for 3 or 4 on the same turn.

Punishing Fires seems really good too, I did limited testing with it and wasn't thrilled, but it sure does seem to answer things that we have a lot of problems dealing with (namely, planeswalkers).

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I'm also toying around with a few other mana sinks, mainly Kessig Wolf Run and Bonfire of the Damned, with Wolf Run as a singleton and Bonfire as a 1- or 2-of. I'm kind of liking keeping the deck at one or two creatures with CMC > 4.

It also kind of limits you to big creatures that can be GSZed, but I'm really not seeing the problem there, especially in red. Broodmate Dragon is a great finisher, and Primeval Titan can be really scary when you use it to fetch Wolf Run and swing for tons, as is epitomized by Wolf Ramp in standard.

Maybe not the best approach, but I'm at least going to go through all the motions and test it properly. Only time can really tell where it's better, if anywhere.

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Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo

I'm also toying around with a few other mana sinks, mainly Kessig Wolf Run and Bonfire of the Damned, with Wolf Run as a singleton and Bonfire as a 1- or 2-of. I'm kind of liking keeping the deck at one or two creatures with CMC > 4.

It also kind of limits you to big creatures that can be GSZed, but I'm really not seeing the problem there, especially in red. Broodmate Dragon is a great finisher, and Primeval Titan can be really scary when you use it to fetch Wolf Run and swing for tons, as is epitomized by Wolf Ramp in standard.

Maybe not the best approach, but I'm at least going to go through all the motions and test it properly. Only time can really tell where it's better, if anywhere.

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How many Groves do you run?

Well thanks for the feedback guys :).

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Originally Posted by Kich867

We most certainly don't have an auto-lose to combo, at least my list doesn't. Post-board I am packing 4x Duress, 2x Hymn, 3x Surgical Extraction, 4x Cabal Therapy, and crypts depending on the deck..

Blue is an interesting splash, though I probably wouldn't opt for Gifts Ungiven, I'd be packing Fact or Fiction, which is something a list earlier had been running to what he said good effect. I have yet to test that build though, Fact or Fiction does seem to provide an absurd benefit to the deck. I often find that my only real "issue" is that I start top decking against Stoneblade while they do some assortment of: Brainstorm, fetch, snapcaster brainstorm, jace, brainstorm, stoneforge for sword of feast and famine, go nuts etc.

Although on second thought, Gifts Ungiven might be better than Fact or Fiction.. it guarantees you're getting what you want, and a pile like: Eternal Witness, Kokusho, Recurring Nightmare, Volrath's Stronghold would be rather nuts.

I would probably make a build of something like this:

//Creatures: 12
2x Eternal Witness
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Trygon Predator
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Grave Titan

//Spells: 20
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Gifts Ungiven
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deeds
2x Recurring Nightmare

//Planeswalkers: 5
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands: 23
2x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Forest
3x Swamp
2x Island

(It feels really, really good when you just ballpark a list off the top of your head, then go back and count to see what you need to cut and you hit 60 cards exact :laugh:)

That actually looks rather effective.

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Yeah, its an interesting take. But I feel like white is worth the colour just because of the Sun titan (which in my mind is easily the most abusive element in my setup, as well as being a stand-alone threat). That and some rather naughty spot removal. I did have a heavier white splash (with more reviellaks/removal etc) but it didnt work so well, but maybe BUG would be more stable... I guess I like to think of my deck as straight Green/black with a heavy white splash and a tiny blue splash... But the pile you would set up here is really far too slow, especially considering it would take multiple turns to kill people, and the low cheap spot removal count would leave you very open to creature rushes. My gameplan would be fend off turns 1-3 (spot removal/hand disruption/work up to deed {or an early deed if im lucky}) then resolve gifts ---> win. Some people concede when they see the pile. Or you still have green suns and hermits and just plain old resolving threats to win. In an ideal world at least.... :). Ohhh, and your anti-combo setup seems good. But even that would only work with a clock. I guess my problem with combo is the same as BUGstill problem with combo - Board control deck with no clock. Mine is a serious heavy control version of the deck, so it doesnt really matter how much I disrupt if they can just sit back and draw cards...

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Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo

@The Spanish Tunnel King: Running four colors just doesn't seem doable at the moment. Maybe you've found differently, but I've even had problems on three colors against some decks, i.e. Death and Taxes w/ Wasteland/Port.

Beyond that, it certainly doesn't seem bad. Gifts seems like a great card to grab part way through the game. My only real complaint about it would be it's weakness to graveyard hate and that it's too slow to help you stabilize against some of our poorer match-ups towards the beginning of the game.

Probably needs some tuning, but it certainly looks interesting.

In not-at-all-related news, I'm currently tuning a GBr list that focuses more on mana sinks than huge creatures, only running one that costs more than four. Instead, the ramp from Explorer can be used for things like additional SDT activations, Punishing Fire, and a couple other neat little tricks. I'll put it up here for you guys to take a look at when I'm done testing it a bit more.

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Yeah, like I say, im happy with the list with 2-3 'free' slots. I didnt have tooooooo much trouble with the manabase. Even to the point of ususally being able to fetch basics even. You dont need the blue until you either have gifts or see it as being one of your only outs, until then you play fairly straight GBw which is pretty stable (but I guess the last deck I played was RUG, so everything else seems stable to me :p). If the opponent is attacking the manabase hard, you can always finks up and ditch the gifts.

Any more ideas on piles people? Even PM me if its not appropriate to discuss it here. Good luck with the red version. Seems fun :).

The Spanish Tunnel King

I've been testing this list for a couple solid months now, at first I tried the red splash, and was pretty satisfied, then I tried a white splash, and I'm not entirely sure about it. I like both, here are the lists i've been using

red splash

3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
1 Kodama of the North Tree
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
Creatures [15]

2 Liliana of the Veil
Planeswalkers [2]

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Spells [20]

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

overall, i'm pretty satisfied with this list. punishing fire was good against most of the field, but i always felt i was sideboarding it out in a lot of matches. broodmate is just fun as hell to ride to victory upon, and kodama was great in testing, shroud+trample is to good to ignore.

and the white splash

2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
Creatures [15]

2 Liliana of the Veil
Planeswalkers [2]

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Spells [20]

2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath

a little bit more focused on abusing recurring nightmare, i feel that there should be at least one life from the loam for extra value with nightmare. i've never actually kokusho'd someone and lost a game. feels a little win more, but not entirely sure what the best choice should be. maybe, -1 kokusho, -1 edict, +2 swords to plowshares?? Sigarda is a great finisher, hard to remove and survives a sneak/show'd emrakul pretty well, with that deck being on the rise, i think the 3x edict is going to be rather good.

i feel white splash gives you a better match up against combo with Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist in the board, while you get pyroblast out of the red board plus the punishing fire engine.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

How many Groves do you run?

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Currently, three.

Actually, thinking about it, I might as well just post the list. Keep in mind that many cards are there only to be tested, i.e. Sprouting Thrinax.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Sprouting Thrinax
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Acidic Slime
1 Primeval Titan
1 Broodmate Dragon

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Bonfire of the Damned

4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run

I mostly avoided planeswalkers, as they are not mana sinks. I keep trying to fit a Liliana, but, at least while testing all the stuff, there has been nothing I am willing to cut. Also, no defends against flyers makes it hard to keep her on the table.

Anyways. Still largsly in development, but this is the sort of thing I am working on.

In the GBw lists no one seems to be playing Vindicate over Maelstrom Pulse. Is killing multiple tokens more important for this deck than the flexibility to hit a land? Or, is this more important for keeping the manabase focused on GB? I'm just wondering what consideration is the primary drive behind this decision having not played the deck.

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Originally Posted by mrorange

In the GBw lists no one seems to be playing Vindicate over Maelstrom Pulse. Is killing multiple tokens more important for this deck than the flexibility to hit a land? Or, is this more important for keeping the manabase focused on GB? I'm just wondering what consideration is the primary drive behind this decision having not played the deck.

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Yes, I can only think of a few lands we'd want to kill: Maze of ith (not needed in white splash with sigarda) maybe tabernacle. Pulse also deals with 2,3 or 4 goyfs, revokers, delvers, etc.

So I played in a 27 player Win-a-Mox Pearl yesterday in Clinton Township, MI and top 4'd with the following list.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Terastadon
1 Progenitus

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Punishing Fire
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Natural Order
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Duress

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Mountain
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Dryad Arbor

SB
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Choke
3 Duress
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Here's a short report:

Round 1: Delver Burn
My opponent quickly admitted to never playing Legacy before when we first sat down, so I put him on Affinity or Burn. Both games involved quickly Zenithing for Kitchen Finks and playing around Daze. That deck also has no way to kill Thrun, so he beat down for victory
1-0

Round 2: Sneaky Show
Saw my opponent earlier playing Sneak and Show, so I knew what to mulligan into. I got very lucky and saw 2 Therapies and a Duress game 1, and I was able to keep her off of the combo long enough to race with an Ooze. Game 2 I board in the Blasts and Duress, and keep a hand with a Blast and Duress. I get my Duress forced and Blasted a turn 3 Show and Tell. I untap and topdeck another blast, and she has another Show and Tell, which I quickly Blast. At that point she's out of gas and I ride Ooze to victory again
2-0

Round 3:UW Stoneblade
This was against my friend Kenta Hikori, who I play against weekly at Get Your Game on in Ann Arbor. He's been play his deck a very long time, and I can't help but know this is a bad matchup and tilt pretty hard. Both games he keeps fast hands and I keep slow/do nothing lands and get beaten by Sword of Feast and Famine.
2-1

Round 4:Spiral Tide
I beat him game 1 with quick Therapies naming Merchant Scroll and Time Spiral. Game 2 goes long because I get discard but he still combos off. I Extirpate his Merchant Scrolls before his first Time Spiral, so it takes him 4 Spirals to finally play around my Blasts. Game 3 we go to time, and I have enough disruption to keep him from going off but can't beat him in 5 turns.
2-1-1

Round 5:U/B Infect
This deck was basically a standard deck that wandered into the 2-2 bracket with a player who didn't seem like the most competent pilot. Highlights of his deck included Phyrexian Crusader(Can't be P-Fired), Blighted Agent, Inkmoth Nexus, Mana Leak, Inkmoth Nexus, Jace TMS and Mutagenic Growth. Punishing Fire beat all of his creatures and Progenitus gets there.
3-1-1

Top 8: Rogue Kuldotha Forgemaster
So this guy's playing Kuldotha Forgemaster with no Metalworkers and more lands. Game 1 he sets up a Monolith but I get a quick deed and he has no lands. Game 2 He gets a quick Forgemaster and I have no answer to Blightsteel. Game 3 was amazingly close, and involved me NOing for Proggy the turn before he can Blightsteel me out with him at 10 life. His answer is Forcefield, so on my turn I play Garruk and draw 10 cards to find Maelstrom Pulse and swing for the win.

Top 4: UW Stoneblade
Played against Kenta again, and focused hard to not tilt in the same fashion. He gets game one with multiple quick Stoneforge Mystics to which I have no answer. Game 2 He mulls to 5 and can't afford to play around Choke, which I have. Game 3 is really tight, with him finding Counterspells to stop Natural Order multiple turns in a row. I can't find a Choke, and he has Elspeth and Jace on the table. In this position I assume I am very far behind, but I slowly claw my way back in with Punishing Fire. The game ends with me making a greedy play to kill Elspeth with Punishing Fire, which he Snapcaster-Counterspells and then he untaps and jumps the Snapcaster dealing exactly lethal. In retrospect I had that game on lock, I just played too aggressively with Punishing Fire.

Finish in 3rd, $75 store credit

Final thoughts: I really like this deck, and Natural Order was great all day. I don't know if 2 Garruk is the right number, and I don't like Liliana, so I'm looking at adding a Burning Wish package. No Scapeshift, instead Wurm Harvest and Life from the Loam to grind out control, as well as give the deck some flexible answers, which it sometimes lacks.

Need some tips with my deck. How does everything look? Still searching for a good sideboard. My only extreme concern is of course combo. Should I replace the duress with traps?




// Lands
1 [B] Badlands
2 [B] Bayou
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
3 [B] Forest (1)
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [ISD] Kessig Wolf Run
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [B] Mountain (1)
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
2 [B] Swamp (1)
1 [B] Taiga
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
2 [WWK] Abyssal Persecutor
1 [ALA] Broodmate Dragon
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [US] Duress
1 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [8E] Choke
SB: 2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

It seems the current list doesn't include Recurring Nightmare anymore. Am I missing something? :confused:
Anyway, I have been playtesting the RGB build for a few months now. Any tips again G/W/x Mavericks and other Combo decks? I placed 3 thoughtseizes and 3 thought hemmorhages

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by unemployer

It seems the current list doesn't include Recurring Nightmare anymore. Am I missing something? :confused:
Anyway, I have been playtesting the RGB build for a few months now. Any tips again G/W/x Mavericks and other Combo decks? I placed 3 thoughtseizes and 3 thought hemmorhages

---

For maverick just board in Perish and Pernicious Deed from sideboard, with 6 sweepers they won't make it very far.

Thought Hemorrhage doesn't seem very good; a 4 mana cabal therapy that bolts them, I'd much rather just play Duress and Surgical Extraction.

@Kich867: Thanks for the tip. I knew something was off. Need to relearn again.

What do you think are the "utility" creatures we can use? So far I see a lot of changes from Deranged Hermit, Grave Titan, Primeval Titan, Kokusho, Huntmaster, Ooze, Witness, etc. Can anyone here help me which are the good ones for an RGB build?
My build includes 1 Grave Titan, 2 HMOF, 1 Ooze, 1 Kokusho, 2 Witness, 1 Kodama and 1 Acidic Slime

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by unemployer

@Kich867: Thanks for the tip. I knew something was off. Need to relearn again.

What do you think are the "utility" creatures we can use? So far I see a lot of changes from Deranged Hermit, Grave Titan, Primeval Titan, Kokusho, Huntmaster, Ooze, Witness, etc. Can anyone here help me which are the good ones for an RGB build?
My build includes 1 Grave Titan, 2 HMOF, 1 Ooze, 1 Kokusho, 2 Witness, 1 Kodama and 1 Acidic Slime

---

My current creature setup in RGB is:

4x Veteran Explorer
3x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Viridian Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Broodmate Dragon

I've been playing
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze

So far, i've been liking the Huntmasters and Kodama of the North Tree. I'm thinking the Wickerbough Elder should be an Acidic Slime however. 1. When you play it, you usually use the ability immediatly so they cannot answer it. 2. Instant speed removal is almost never relevant, neither is the power. 3. Hitting a land ike Academy Ruins can be really relevant.

Also it has Deathtouch so it deals with all big creatures. But for a damage-race he is worse.Im going to test him.

M13 has at least one strong card for you guys: Mwonvuli Beast Tracker. You can now tutor up a Grave Titan or Abyssal Persecutor off a decent 2/1 body, and you can GSZ for it of course. Plus, it can tutor up Kodoma, Acidic Slime, Primeval Titan, and other stuff. Seems pretty good.

He puts the creature on top of the library though :/ which isn't awful but it is not getting you card advantage like Fierce Empath. I am not really sure how I feel about him.

I think that Beast-Tracker is a fine card, but, as with other tutors, he's only as good as what you're tutoring for. If you want to run him in this deck to grab Grave Titan, Acidic Slime, Primeval, etc, he's functionally worse than Fierce Empath. Empath replaces himself by grabbing your off-color 6, and all of the other cards may as well just be GSZ'd. Why would you Zenith for Tracker, to put Slime on top of your deck, when you could just Zenith out Slime instead? Seems poor to me.

If Tracker is a thing, it's in consideration of the non-green options for the deck. Cards like Abyssal Persecutor will shine with him, if that's your thing. I'm sure there are other options in non-green colors as well, although I can't think of an exhaustive list at the moment. Nighthawk does come to immediately to mind, though, as a potent 3-drop that would also be good in the Therapy -> Explorer -> Therapy line of events, which gives you three mana on turn two. It's a shame that he can't grab Rector -- I would dearly love to be able to GSZ for something to tutor Rector. But yeah... I think that he's a strong card particularly for the straight GB lists. At the point at which you start splashing, it seems like you have better options.

In other news, I've finally solidified my lists for all three color splashes. I'll post all three tonight when I'm home from work; the white list is still my favorite and primary, the red list has been refined somewhat from when I last posted it, and the blue list is brand-new and very experimental. It's certainly not performing badly in testing, but it does sometimes feel a bit clunky. If the meta continues to shift the way it has been, I might play the red list at Atlanta...but if the format swings back towards Canadian/Maverick, I'll stick with white.

Isn't Fierce Empath just better than Beast-Tracker?

Any thoughts on my sideboard? Chalice on 0 is for Hypergenesis and even on 1 it's pretty good against RUG as most of my 1 drops aren't that hot against them anyways. I'm expecting a lot of combo this weekend. Should I pack more hand disruption? If so, what comes out?


Land (22)

3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Windswept Heath
1x karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
Enchantment (5)

1x Sylvan Library
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
Instant (4)

1x Darkblast
3x Swords to Plowshares
Creature (13)

1x Eternal Witness
1x Academy Rector
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
Sorcery (13)

4x Cabal Therapy
1x Innocent Blood
1x Vindicate
2x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Green Sun's Zenith
Planeswalker (4)

1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
3x Liliana of the Veil
Artifact (1)

1x Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard (15)

1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Thoughtseize
1x Damnation
2x Extirpate
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Rule of Law
1x Choke
1x Kitchen Finks
Sideboard

1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Thoughtseize
1x Damnation
2x Extirpate
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Rule of Law
1x Choke
1x Kitchen Finks

Seems like a lot of people has been moving out from the original deck, GBw, trying out other combinations.

I'm however still playing GBw although I haven't had too much of a success. This is how my list is looking (Pretty much copied XdeckX's deck that he posted a few pages back, with minor changes)

1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Duress

Sideboard

4 Extirpate
2 Choke
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Leyline Sanctity (haven't tried this card out yet)
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Diabolic Edict

I've been playing against:

Reanimator

It's 60/40 to his favor to be honest. If he begins, he almost wins everytime as it's extremley hard to hit with cabal therapy. He entombs end of my turn, then casts a reanimate spell on his gitaxian the following turn, I try to sword it and his response is daze/fow.

Whenever I get an ooze out with forest up, he scoops.

Countryside Crusher deck(or w/e they are called)

We played like 10 games the other day and I it was 50/50. It feels like I should've won more than I did to this guy, but I had this flow of unluck. I was mana-screwed many of the games and he had the perfect draws. At least that was what it felt like, I might be wrong.

Combo(ANT, High tide)

Before sideboard, it's pretty much impossible. After sideboard I have somewhat of a chance, still it's very hard. 90/10 to their favor.

Maybe I'm just playing the deck wrong, which is likely, but I don't know. It's just too slow if you don't get a sensei out early.

Any suggestions on improvements? I would be very greatful. I'm new to the legacy format as well so I'm still learning. I am however gonna stick to this deck for quite some while since I have almost all the cards(lacking 2 bayou and a scrubland). Also, the deck is great fun to play.

I'm still running the GBW list from a couple of pages back (mostly online since I havent had the chance to play a tournament). I still like it allot but with the rise of Sneak and Show I feel a colorswitch is required (adding Red obv.)
To be honest I hope the meta shifts in our favor a bit with the GP Gent coming up because I would hate to play against S+T all day without having a proper answer to it.
And it's not even Emrakul that's the problem with that deck. Griselbrand just puts it over the top.
Does anyone have any idea on how to properly handle that deck?

@litenkatt
AggroLoam (that countryside crusher deck) can be quite a hand full.

I haven't had much trouble with Reanimator tbh (although I haven't played against it in a while) Just keep a hand with discard, stick an ooze and keep ripping Extirpate/Extractions ;)