[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

now, i becomed 9th(again, just like the tourney before this:tongue: ) on my tourney last saturday and this were my mu's:

1xelf beatdown, 1-2
1xr/g beatz, 2-0
1xtes, 1-2
1xvaka pox, 2-1
1xmirror(deaguy ale with descendants), 2-1

next weekend the dutch national championship is coming and i want to play this list:

4xconfidant
2xtombstalker(you people are totally rigth, this creaure is awesome instead of grunt)
3xshade
3xspctral lynx(you may say what you want about this but i have won so many games with this creature and hes super good against too many decks)

4xstp
4xdark ritual

4xvindicate
4xsinkhole(i putted this card back because i really like it and i was missing it for many times on my tourney last saturday)
2xduress
2xthoughtseize(because otherwise i lose too much life i've discovered so i've choosed for the 2/2slpit with duress)
4xhymn

3xengineered explosives

4xscrubland
4xmire
1xgodless shrine
1xtomb of urami
4xwasteland
7xswamp

sb:

3xdisenchant
4xegineered plague
4xchainer's edict(this card is really awesome against almost every aggro-control/aggro deck, i won many games on this card too)
4xwithered wretch

i dont splash any color for more counters on ee and grips side becasue it made my mana base really unstable.

i think this list has good mu against every deck and especciale aggro-control decks.

any suggestions?

Wow, good luck man, this list looks solid, just pray you don't hit Tombstalker off of Bob. Be sure to post your results on this list, I have always loved dead guy and I am looking for a list that can compeat in the current meta.

thank you very much, i think this list is really good in the current meta because with 8 dicard and trhe enigneered explosives i always have a good combo mu(okay, i lost to tes but it was the first time i play aginast that deck and really didnt know how to play against it and he was a very expierienced player so..). against thresh i have a supergood mu because i play too much answers on their creatures and my stalkers are bigger(and i always have a 3th stalker for whenever you need it:p tomb of urami)

and against aggro i usually win(and i thougth fast aggro was really bad for this deck but it seems not) but swarm aggro liek elves are realy difiicult, especially with the new lorwyn elfs. i had 2xplagues and they still can win.

i'm really excited how im going to play on the champs, i hope i get to the t24(then i have a price:p)

if i have a good prestation on the champs i wil write a report.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by electrolyze

2xtombstalker(you people are totally rigth, this creaure is awesome instead of grunt)

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This man talks sense. Why doesn't *everyone* convert to Stalker? Grunt is history.

Also, what's everyone think of the TES matchup? Even with 11 discard(3 Hymn, 4 Duress, 4 Seize) (but no Hyppies), and 3 Engineered Explosives main, I still seem to be losing...badly...Advice/suggestions anyone?

maybe you could put orim's chant into the sideboard, its a very good card against this kind of combo. you can play it after a iggy, tutor or whatelse tes have to search for the kill.

i'm going to test them but i dont have them in real life so i dont think a can play them at the champs if i like them in the sb.

about my sb:

4xwretch
4xchainer's edict
3xdisenchant
4xengineered plague

i want to cut something for extirpates(or chants) but i dont know what?

i dont need the disenchant that much against many mu's and the plague not too much too. should i cut one disenchant and one or 2 plague for 3 extirpates or 3 chants? maybe a 4th chant or 4th extirpate instead of a wretch? what do you think what is better?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

This man talks sense. Why doesn't *everyone* convert to Stalker? Grunt is history.

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I still disagree. Especially while goyf is still huge, grunt is still playable and perhaps preferable.

i know that grunt is good against ghoyf but stalker is good against goyf too when it is 4/5. and with all my maindeck removal and lynxes there is no reason i would play grunt over tombstalker against thresh.

i know grunt it is really good against loam decks but many loam decks win on there creatures and if you have a bigger creature with evasion you can kill much faster then he kills you.

except for 43 land but you probably dont win this mu except if your opponent is mana screwed:laugh: not funny:tongue:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by electrolyze

maybe you could put orim's chant into the sideboard, its a very good card against this kind of combo. you can play it after a iggy, tutor or what else tes have to search for the kill......

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I have been testing chant in the main board for a few weeks now and it is awsome!!! I still prefer Grunts to Tombstalker, after loseing 8 life, twice in one game and once in the next game I will bprob. not play Stalker any more.

i'm glad to hear that chant works realy good, but main?

i'm really interested in your list?


about the stalker, i've one revealed the stalker against thresh and i've won that game because of the beating of stalker.

My current Dead Guy list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Withered Wretch

4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Smother
4 Orm's Chant
4 Vindicate
2 Extirpate
1 Seal of Cleansing

4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
5 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB:
4 E. Plague
2 Extirpate
1 Smother
3 COP Red
2 Withered Wretch
3 Seal of Cleansing

EDIT: Match Up's:

Goblins: This is a tough match, game one you will lose 85% of the time. After the board comes in you will have 4 x E. Plague 4 x Smother, 4x STP and 2 x E.E. and the game is a little eaiser. This is prob. one of your tougher match ups, COP red is in the board and will come in handy.

Combo: Belcher, Breakfast, TES and Icorid: Combo is always a strange MU, I think deck has the advantage. With the 7-8 main board :b: discard spells, the 2 main deck Extirpate and the Orm's Chants all of these matches should go well for you.

Thresh: Haven't really played this match much. Tarmogoyf is no problem due to the 7 ways to kill him main decl. Mongoose presents a small problem but if you can get a Grunt or Wretch going then the match gets much eaiser. The board can provide more help with Wretch, Layline of the Void and Extirpate all available to you.

Landstill: Another deck you need a good start against, the MB Duress and Seize will help alot. The fact that the deck doesn't play conventional creatures makes the STP's and Smother's a little less valuable. Wasteland is big here, knocking out there slim manabase and keeping there Factories at bay. You opponents wastelands can hurt, you need to play smart and make sure you only fetch Scrub's when ya really need them.

Goyf Sligh: This match can go either way, its tough though. This match is prob. wose than goblins, you don't run Hymn so the little bit of discard you do play is key. Thoughtseize will prob. come out for C.O.P. Red, this match up is the reason COP red is in the board. Make sure you always know what your life total is, Goyf Sligh can alpha Strike for a lot of damage at any time, be carful with your Bob's and Thoughtseize's.

that list looks really quick and solide but i would cut the 1-off seal and put or a duress or a wretch extra in it. otherwise i should change it to a one of engineered explosives because it can kill nasty arti's and enchantments(and a bunch of goblin tokens, mongoose, goyfs, etc.) too.

really like to hear what kind of mu's you already played and how'd you preformed against this decks because the list looks more faster because of the 1c cards and more slots because you cutted, rituals, and play less land.

the dutch championship was not so really good for me, i ended up 4-3 for a 43 place from the 125 participants.

my mu's were:

mono red aggro(really bad deck) 2-0
wild zombies 0-2
iggy pop 2-0
deadguy rock 0-2(i was really mana screwd otherwise i had win this game)
burn, 1-2
empty the slogger(kind of dragon stompy) 2-0
angel staxx 2-0

i played this list:

4xconfidant
3xshade
2xstalker
3xspectral lynx

3xengineered explosives

4xdark ritual
4xstp
2xextirpate

4xhymn to tourach
4xduress
2xthougthseize
4xvindicate

4xscrubland
1xgodless shrine
4xmire
4xwasteland
1xtomb of urami
7xswamp

sb:

3xdisenchant
4xwretch
4xplague
4xchainer's edict

i really like this list and i see no changes for now, i had just really bad luck against burn and deadguy rock because normally i always win this match.

the dutch championships are won by a german:confused: but this decks were in the t8:

1 4cfish
2 tes
3 survival
4 ichorid
5 deadguy ale
6 deadguy rock
7 engineered CALL(a loam deck with seismic assault)
8 dragon stompy

Nice decklist from dutch championship top8:

Quarter-Finalist: Ziming Chen

Deckname: Pikula’s Homebrew

Maindeck:
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tainted Field
7 Swamp
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Withered Wretch
3 Hypnotic Spectre
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Masticore
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Extirpate
2 Withered Wretch
2 Pithing Needle

[all top8 -> http://www.kvdeckmasters.nl/Forum/in...2285#msg172285 ]

As we can see Ritual -> Hypnotic is still strong, also Sinkholes.

yes, ive cutted hippies a long time ago but after being on this tournament i see that hes still really good with ritual.

sinkhole is good too because there were many 3c or 4c decks.

maybe i'm really going back to the old build. but explosives are so uber good.

wretch main looks good too because there were many grave depending decks in the tournament.

What was the meta like where this did well?

the meta was really variated but the most decks were aggro-control.

and there were many loam decks as wel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by electrolyze

the meta was really variated but the most decks were aggro-control.

and there were many loam decks as wel.

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So saying "mostly like Goyf based aggro with a smattering of loam and almost no combo" would be accurate?
I'm not trying to be a dick, just seeing what works against what.

there was many combo as well, but the most decks were indeed goyfs based aggro control decks.

ok, after more testing with the old build and my own build i decided to play sinkholes again because they can be really good against almost every deck.

about hippie, i still dont know what i should do with it. most of the time i actually casted a hippie he get killed or countered and the games he actually stayed in play for a few turns he did not so many really good things. the people were i play against say that hippie is too good to not be played.
i like hippie bu i really miss spectral lynx in the build wich i liek really much because it did so many good thing for me.

btw, heres my new list:

4xconfidant
3xhippie
3xshade
2xtombstalker

4xdark ritual
4xswords to plowshares

4xvindicate
4xsinkhole
4xhymn
2xthoughtseize
2xduress

3xengineered explosives

4xscrubland
1xgodless shrine
4xwasteland
4xbloodstained mire
1xwindswept heath
1xplains
5xswamp

sb:

4xengineered plague
4xchainer's edict
4xwithered wretch
2xextirpate
1xengineered explosives

i like this list but i think im gonna cut hippie for spectral lynx or withered wretch.

i play one plains and one heath for the plains becasue of that irritating ..moon
cards. now i can actually play a explosives for 3 when a moon is played:laugh:

does someone has reccomments on this list?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by electrolyze

i like this list but i think im gonna cut hippie for spectral lynx or withered wretch.

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I would go with 4 Thoughtseizes. Especially in a deck like Ale that's most feared card type is "creature" adding that card type to the spell is worth 2 life.

Add the 4th Shade before you start adding Lynxes.

Alright, so, since Sinkhole becomes less and less useful the more that Legacy develops, and Thoughtseize is freaking sweet, I've been wanting to remake this deck packing playsets of Duress, Thoughtseize, Hymn, and Verdict for complete hand annihilation. This would also include H-Speck, Confidant, Shade, the ever versatile Vindicate, and some form of noncreature kill, either a 2/2 split of Scroll/Something else, or just 4 copies of The Rack.

I suppose a sample list of what I'm assembling might be something like this.

4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
8 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Vindicate

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 The Rack (Or 2 Scrolls, 2 Explosives, or something of that nature)

SB:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle

So I guess I'm mostly curious if anyone's really reinvestigated the possibility of a discard-heavy build since the printing of Thoughtseize.

Problem is, even with my current discard suite (of 3 duress, 3 seize, and 4 hymn) they're completely dead after like turn 4. Especially without land destruction to keep your opponent from playing their topdecks, more discard will almost certainly translate into more dead draws late game.

There are remidies to this (top, etc.) but nothing spectacular. Have you tried it? How did it work?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rsaunder

Problem is, even with my current discard suite (of 3 duress, 3 seize, and 4 hymn) they're completely dead after like turn 4. Especially without land destruction to keep your opponent from playing their topdecks, more discard will almost certainly translate into more dead draws late game.

There are remidies to this (top, etc.) but nothing spectacular. Have you tried it? How did it work?

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my thoughts exactly

@Taco - Instead of the Rack, Scroll, EE why not run Jotun Grunt? Seems better at dealing damage than The Rack, and it hoses any 'goyf that flew under the radar. I think it seems like a better quality card for a deck like this.

Screw Grunt. Play Stalker. Thresh isn't the world, and Stalker is miles better against almost everything else.

@ Taco:

No offense, but your build seems horrible against Thresh; the discard isn't fast enough, and you don't have any real answers. There isn't even Dystopia in the board...how does the Matchup play out?

@Everyone:

What do you think about Shriekmaw in the deck? He's versatile and evasive(although slow...), and kills every creature in Thresh...

i dont like shriekmaw because i play stalket too and shriekmaw hurts too much with confidant if youre running stalker and vindicate too.

this is my new list:

3xlynx
4xconfidant
3xshade
2xtombstalker

4xstp
4xritual

3xexplosives

2xduress
2xthougthseize
4xhymn
4xvindicate
4xsinkhole

4xscrubland
1xgodless shrine
4xwasteland
7xswamp
1xtomb of urami

sb:

4xchainer's edict
4xwinthered wretch
2xextirpate
1xexplosives
4xengineered plague

i play sinkholes again because i really like them and there even good againt loam decks if you play it right.

i moved my 'pates to the sideboard becuase they did not very much in the mainboard. i think i'll cut the 1 explosives side to a 3th extirpate but on this moment i own but 2 extirpates.

the only thing my build sucks against is a resolved ...moon, i have almost no answers on this except for beating harder then he does. i already play with a plains in the mainboard and a single heath but it really sucked. maybe smother or something in the main would be good?

Keep in mind I haven't even played my above build but like, thirty or forty games.

Threshold, or all two matches I played against it, only seems to turn awful if I cut The Rack, which is a large reason of why I'm running it. The Rack is good against Threshold. I went 0-2 without it, and 2-0 with it, though it's fair to say the two games I lost were blowouts and the two I won were fairly close. The main reason I win games against Thresh is by managing some serious hand disruption, a Confidant or Specter, The Rack, and usually some ground stalling against Tarmogoyfs via Nantuko Shade or Vindicate. (I literally won game one by topdecking a Hymn with two Racks on the table after chump blocking a Goyf/Mongoose combination.)

As for the discard being dead midgame, I'm aware. I might downgrade a Duress or two after some more testing.

I'm not playing Jotun Grunt because Jotun Grunt is awful. It can improve Threshold or Ichorid matchups all day long and it's still a bad card.

@Shriekmaw and Tombstalker: These are not a good idea with Dark Confidant. Although you might get away with this if you had Sensei's Divining Top.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

@Shriekmaw and Tombstalker: These are not a good idea with Dark Confidant. Although you might get away with this if you had Sensei's Divining Top.

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Actually, I do run Top. I find it makes the deck run far smoother. Besides, I already run Bob and fetches, so why not?

On the Rack: What if you don't draw it/don't draw enough? The way you put it, the Thresh matchup seems to basically be based on drawing 1 of 4 cards fast.

Why would anyone play the rack in legacy, a format where Brainstorm, standstill and/or FOF are in like 75 % of decks? The rack really needs your opponents hand to be empty to work, not to mention the fact that if you play sinkhole it will leave more cards in there hand.

Top is nice to have in dead guy, it's really nice if you run Tomb Stalker.

Because when Tacosnape talked about the Rack, he was discussing its use in a deck with 16 discard spells, 8 of which discard 2 cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

...

No offense, but your build seems horrible against Thresh; the discard isn't fast enough, and you don't have any real answers. There isn't even Dystopia in the board...how does the Matchup play out?

...

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Don't you kill yourself running Dystopia? I mean, the damage isn't that low.

You destroy one creature, a Goyf or a Goose for 0 life, which is fair. Then in your upkeep you decide if you want to destroy another Goyf for 1 Life which is usually fair too. Then in your next upkeep, if your opponent still has a creature left, which is unlikely, you pay 2 life to destroy a 3rd creature which is still very fair. And if he somehow manage to still have a creature left, you kill a 4th creature for 3 life unless you'd kill yourself or you'd go down to 3 against Red Thresh and could handle the creature with your board and hand cards, too.

Personally I prefer Damnation. It's generally a surprise, they don't expect it.

Regarding Dystopia: Actually, you destroy one creature without cost. 2 creatures for 1 life, 3 for 3 life. 4 would cost 6 life, but when has Thresh had 4 creatures out? If they do, chances are you're happy to pay it knowing they just lost half the threats in their deck.

Regarding The Rack: The Rack is actually awesome against Brainstorm-decks. Brainstorm doesn't increase your card count nor does anything else in Threshold-style decks (cantrips just increase your card quality and guess what? Discard-deck doesn't care about your card quality, every card is equal to discard-effects), so every card they play, and every discard-spell is -1 cards in their hand, thus activating the Rack real quick as they replenish much more slowly. It's not perfect against control, but it's quite good against midrange, and you can empty just about any deck's hand with that discard suite. Remember that if someone holds cards back, they're playing right into your hands, so the optimal route is to fill up the board, else they're just giving you use for your discard-spells. The potential MUs where the Rack might be a lackluster are Goblins and board control (which you should do very well against to start with).

You are right, my bad. I player that card on tourneys, and I played it right, then. Sorry for the confusion. I edited my post.

I don't agree with the rack. While threats like Shade, Tombstalker and Confidant and also cards like Spectral Lynx or Cursed Scroll help to fight to gain control over the board, the rack is doing nothing except dealing damage. That only works if you are in the offense and your opponent can't outrace you, In times of Goyf it is not unlikely that he will be just faster than you.

@ Tacosnape

I've played around with alot of discard variants - if you splash white it ultimately ends up looking like Deadguy. General advice, if you're going heavy discard, keep your mana curve low as possible. Also you want to keep your threat count high as possible. If you can afford a splash, then you probably want a way to fix your draws.

Recommendations:

1) As much as I love vindicate, it comes on a bit late and when it finally does, it's almost always will take a full turns worth of mana. I'd cut 1x. Seems so insignificant, but you never want 2x in your opening hand.

2) Threats! Tombstalker is worth a thought, not great synergy with Confidant but I'd atleast consider it for a moment. A better inclusion if you're going Discard Heavy: Nezumi Shortfang, probably against as a 2-of. Another rack effect, recurring discard - the drawback, he needs to be brought online a little slowly. The last thing you want to do with your turn 2 play is drop this guy. Cursed scroll is another good edition.

3) Card Manipulation - Sensei's Diving top. If you're going to run Confidant and Fetches, then this is practially a must for Discard. Those late dead draws into discard are shuffled away and you can mitigate any life loss effects the majority of the time. This, in my opinion is probably the most important development to the deck.

Really though, I have to ask why anyone would play discard with a white splash (i.e. deadguy with heavy emphasis on discard) over other variants? As much as I love discard, it's weak in this form. The reasons to run white: Stp (which is sideboarded - and rightly so I think in your deck), Vindicate (the real reason, but not nearly as powerful as when it was complimented with Sinkhole and legacy's environment was a bit different), and Verdict, which is the weakest discard spell hear. Cabal Therapy is debateably better, especially when you're running both Thoughtseize and Duress.

That's my two cents. Best of luck. I like the innovation if nothing else. A sidenote: I'd really recommend the discard with burn variants if you want a splash. In my opinion, they're strictly better than that incarnation. Good luck whatever you choose.

Any suggestions or comments on Shriekmaw, anyone? I personally find it fine, it's not dead against creatureless decks much either.

i really like shriekmaw in many decks but i think, if youre not running top, shriekmaw hurts too much with confidant, especcially when youre running tombstalker too.

may i see youre list because im really interested now.

I don't like Maw, too. You already have better spot Removal with Swords and even Smother would be superior as a removal to Maw beacuse it hits Bob and Ravager.

Getting 5 Mana and then having an opponent who has an unprotected, targetable creature is unrealistic. It won't happen with consistence, maybe once every 7 games. I've played some tourneys with GBW Survival now and I have NEVER hardcasted my Shriekmaw in them.

And even with Top in the deck you shouldn't overload Bob with High CC spells, 3 Stalker are enough.

A question on playing Thoughtseize: Is there any situation where playing a Thoughtseize in hand turn 1 is not the right play? (examples, please, too)

Say, if I have a hand of Land, Land, Rit, Arena, Thoughtseize, Stalker, Vindicate/Swords or something, would the better turn one play be Rit-> Arena or Thoughtseize?