can you song an opponents permanent, say a planeswalker, then drop vesuva or stage and copy that target and now have that planeswalker? cant imagine this working this way but does it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roweboater
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can you song an opponents permanent, say a planeswalker, then drop vesuva or stage and copy that target and now have that planeswalker? cant imagine this working this way but does it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roweboater
I personally haven't tried this yet. I do think it works like that though. Your Song enchants their permanent and when you play your Vesuva you can use it as a target. Once it is in play though it doesn't have its own Song enchanting it and therefore is just the permanent you targeted.
It does, in fact, work that way. I've copied Liliana of the Veil with it and it was absolutely fantastic. Vesuva only cares about the fact that the card it's copying is a land, but the copyable values of a card do not include any auras or counters on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by prdgchild
More reading here: http://mtg.gamepedia.com/Copying_objects
This seems just plain awesome. If Song was colorless, it'd be perfect. But this interaction seems cool enough that I will have to try it anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
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Crazy thought:
Between the filtering from Cascading Cataracts and S&T, would it be reasonable to run Griselbrand in UG?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
with force of will main maybe. how many copies? cant tutor for him so idk m8
Perhaps a Sultai brew that way you can utilize Leovold which sounds pretty strong. Then you don't have to rely on Cascading Cataracts to cast him outside of Show and Tell. Also opens up to run Toxic Deluge and Abrupt Decay and Deathrite if you feel fancy.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
**EDIT** You could also just run either Kozilek if you are looking for card advantage and easier to cast w/o black.
I second this. Song of the Dryads if a very useful card for locking out planeswalkers. I've ran 2 in my Bant build to handle non creature targets that Terminus couldn't handle. Probably my favorite target is liliana. I've also used it to shut down vials, chalice, and batterskull. Batterskull is fun for the fact you can tap itself to equip. Just keep in mind though that Your copied vesuva is still a wasteland target. Pretty big bummer to lose your copied Liliana to a wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roweboater
I know vesuva becomes the exact card that is enchanted with Song of the Dryads, but because the new copy of vesuva is not enchanted by song of the dryad, it won't gain the land sub-type? I believe that it just copies and doesn't retain the land portion, so it cannot be wastelanded
@Rock Lee any new builds that you have been testing at the moment? What are some of your post-ban UG lists looking like? How do we play against combo decks without Sensei Top?
You're right. I just checked with judges corner to verify. It loses its land supertype since it completely copies the targeted card. I've been screwed then in the past. Noted!Quote:
Originally Posted by snoop_x
EDIT: He was correct so continue on!
I don't think it works the way you think it does. You will copy a card akin to the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
Liliana of the Veil 1BB
Forest Land
Devoid
This card has no abilities other than {t}: Add {G}. It's a colorless Forest. You copy the thing that it is, not the thing that it was. For instance, if you somehow lose a True-Name Nemesis but keep a Phantasmal Image that was a copy of TNN, if you then drop a second Phantasmal Image and copy the first one, it will be a True-Name Nemesis with 3 CMC, and not the text on the card.
Off topic, interestingly enough, I believe it will actually get a second instance of the sacrifice clause due to that being on the first Image a la:
True-Name Nemesis 1UU
Merfolk
[protection stuff]
[sacrifice if targeted clause]
[sacrifice if targeted clause a second time]
I'm happy to be wrong, but there's a couple other things that seemed goofy about this line of thinking if I was/am wrong:
* A thespian stage that successfully copied a Liliana of the Veil and gained it's types/text; would be a planeswalker with no loyalty counters, and thus would be "put into the graveyard" on resolution.
* A Vesuva would indeed enter the battlefield with 3 loyalty counters (again, if my belief about being a forest was wrong.) This is because vesuva would be a complete copy of Liliana when it enters, and thus would have a [3] in an the loyalty box.
Again, happy to be wrong on these things, but I was a L1 Judge for a year (or however long it lasts) so I don't think I'm that rusty
In this case, if you copy a Liliana of the Veil, enchanted with Song of the Dryads, with a Vesuva, Vesusva will become a copy of the Planeswalker Liliana of the Veil with 3 loyalty counters on it. Lets go over why (highlighting relevant sections):Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Rule 706.2 - "....The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by "as enters the battlefield" and "as... is turned face up" abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied"
Good rule of thumb - copiable values are those that are printed on the physical card itself. Copies ignore type changing effects like those from Song of the Dryad (exception is the TNN example you gave, that I will address below).
You are correct with the analysis here. 306.5b - "A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, "This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number." This ability creates a replacement effect." Therefore, Vesusva enters the battlefield as a Planeswalker and leverages this replacement effect. A Thespian Stage would not leverage this replacement effect and would go to the graveyard as a SBA.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Again correct, but this happens for a different reason than the Liliana interaction above. There is a section in that rules section quoted that is relevant: "as modified by other copy effects," So the copiable values of the Phantasmal Image that copied TNN would be those of TNN with the sacrifice clause. You correctly identify that the second Phantasmal Image copy would infact have two sacrifice clauses.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Yeah, you're right. I had a total brainfart because of the "It's a land" bit. Obviously when you copy a creature with Moldervine Cloak attached you don't get the +3/+3. For some reason turning it into a land caused a ruckus in muh brain parts.
Have been tinkering with a blend of my previous mono green builds and Snoop's C/g build resulting in this strong build. Still could use some tuning, but I am finding it very resilient:
// Lands
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [TSP] Vesuva
7 [TSP] Forest (4)
2 [EMA] Maze of Ith
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [OGW] Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 [NPH] Spellskite
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
4 [MM2] Expedition Map
4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [OGW] Warping Wail
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [ORI] Orbs of Warding
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
Nice list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Vs combo is hard realy?
Matchup Vs delver deck what do you think?
Thanks
I don't understand the maindeck Bridges. Once they're down, Ulamog and Ugin appear to be your only ways to win. Is there something I'm missing here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
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The point of the bridges is that it creates a much easier to manage board state. Since most of the time we don't really have to worry about attacking our opponent until we're ready to kill them, Bridge buys you the turns to set up. It's much easier to set up a road block that you can remove if and when you choose than it is to try to get around whatever your opponent is doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
If you ever stream post again let us know, it would be great to watch some people with experience playing the deck. Same goes for any other people too. I think I've watched every youtube video about twice now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotmaster
The bridges seem real strange to me too but if you've had success with it, it seems worth a try. Can't hate if it works, right?
I just put titan-post together not too long ago. I'm trying to get 15 or 20 matches in with the different color variant before trying a titanless build. I only have a single Candelabra at the moment, plus titans just feel so powerful. I played Big Eldrazi while picking up some other cards, but I'm excited to have access to crop rotation after getting waste-loam locked or even kotr--> repeated wastes. My meta is a strange little slice of hell for a cloudpost player. I've went 8-5 the last 3 weeks (1-2 my first tournament).
What have your guys' results been like? Have any of the different variants placed since the top ban? I've only seen some of the Big Eldrazi decks do alright.
I played bridges in my main in UG when eldrazi stompy first became popular and bridges were great, just fell short of top8 in a classic (pre-top ban). I prefer two ulamogs though when running bridge main, one real removal spell is sketch. Ugin and Land tutors with eye makes it pretty legit, but not so sure without top in UG. Stirrings with CG makes it appealing to me but brainstorm was nice to filter them when needed, 2 ulamog would be the route I'd take especially with the amount of targeted discard right now.
Yeah. I get Bridge in UG, since you have Repeal. I'd just be nervous about locking myself out of the game with so few ways around it main in Cg.Quote:
Originally Posted by hymnyou
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