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? Storm ? I posted about decks running brainstorm and DTT, such as Omnitell. Discard has become way less efficient since DTT, especially for nonblue decks that rely on it in the combomatchup (like Jund). DTT made it even more difficult to take on combo without running blue for counters. If DTT stays, i'd like something efficient nonblue combohate printed in return.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Tbf im talking about the pre delver metagame, post mistep ban where maverik was against stoneblade and show&tell/spiral.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Not talking about the thalia metagame, terminus became a card and maverik a fine deck, you had to take some serious choice and the timing for your plays was relevant.
Before terminus happened maverik was literally just about play on curve and trying to fetch an hatebear against combo, nothing more.
And the cantrip cartel (lol) existed back then, but a 9/9 kotr with a mor was too much to handle, back then maverik had an insane MU against all blue (non combo) decks and GSZ was obnoxious.
I remember some pretty hard plays like land NH, land choke, land zenith into kotr, wasteland sylvan, so many insane plays right?
I'm not really sure what your argument even is other than that you apparently got blown out by choke at some point. Are you implying that at some point maverick was somehow an overpowered deck?
If you're planning to grind, I agree. If you're saying that Liliana isn't a hard lock against Omni anymore, I agree. It's not like Jund and Shardless (which are the most prominent non-combo decks where discard is their primary form of disruption) don't have other tools, and all any disruption does against combo is buy you time. Discard still does that even in the face of Dig, and even if they play around it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
Well, it really was overpowered back in the day, because nothing like terminus existed (and to be honest, imho terminus is total bs too, the card could be way more balanced).Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
But you cant tell me old maverik was a skill intensive deck to pilot, you just had to play your cards, most of the times even playing bad was ok because the deck was just that good.
I mean, maybe its me, but i dont see the skill in for example:
Play a turn 2 sylvan and win because of that
Play a random natural order and win because there is no solution to proggy
Have GSZ up to solve every problem you may get, giving you insane redundancy
Sit on mor in a format with no good AOE
Having an insane toolbox in your manabase (for example a single maze/tower was enought to disrupt the entire gameplan of a stoneforge deck) and a 10/10 able to fetch it if needed
Maverik had a super good MU vs any stoneblade, an autowin against tempo (remember no delver, so we are talking about 8 creatures RUG and merfolks) an ok MU against combo (back then karakas was a big deal against show and tell and they had no grisel, and spiral tide usually gave you time to try to set up some hate, ANT was rather bad but a random GSZ into gaddock was still game) and a 50/50 MU against landeed (maybe a bit harder, but landeed was already going out of the metagame) and in general a good or at least 50/50 MU against any aggro.
And i remember back then a LOT of bad players were able to top8 tournaments here in italy, and it really was one of the only times i saw that many doing it.
If i remember correctly was back in 2010/2011?
I didn't really check to see what you guys are discussing, but let me assure you that in mid/late 2011, Maverick was definitely one of the harder decks to pilot correctly.
I don't know man, you could just tap out on turn 2 for your do-nothing-till-you-untap enchantment or resolve 3+cmc sorceries and there was nothing anyone could do about it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
I'm just glad I'm reading all Noctalor's posts in George Costanza's voice.
So sylvan is a bad card in control MU?Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
I think im fine doing nothing on turn 2 and then ancestral recall twice, and ponder each draw step.
I wrote first good Primer on TheSource about Maverick, and I strongly disagree it's brainless, as Julian23 said deck was mostly reactive (it's power was toolbox which could resolve and stop most opponent strategy / line of play by most decks), but since reaction wasn't stack based It required knowledge about opponent line of play to forecast specify tool before it happens. Some lines was easier, some was much more though. Since wincon wasn't enough fast as aggressive decks or combo decks those days - race wasn't an option.Quote:
I mean, maybe its me, but i dont see the skill in for example:
Play a turn 2 sylvan and win because of that
Play a random natural order and win because there is no solution to proggy
Have GSZ up to solve every problem you may get, giving you insane redundancy
Sit on mor in a format with no good AOE
Having an insane toolbox in your manabase (for example a single maze/tower was enought to disrupt the entire gameplan of a stoneforge deck) and a 10/10 able to fetch it if needed
Maverik had a super good MU vs any stoneblade, an autowin against tempo (remember no delver, so we are talking about 8 creatures RUG and merfolks) an ok MU against combo (back then karakas was a big deal against show and tell and they had no grisel, and spiral tide usually gave you time to try to set up some hate, ANT was rather bad but a random GSZ into gaddock was still game) and a 50/50 MU against landeed (maybe a bit harder, but landeed was already going out of the metagame) and in general a good or at least 50/50 MU against any aggro.
Let me invalid all your arguments one by one:
- every tempo deck could do that - you also forgot about how popular was spell snare those days. Also try to win with it vs combo when you was dead after it resolve, it works only vs white based control/midrange.Quote:
Play a turn 2 sylvan and win because of that
Natural Order wasn't Maverick tool most of the time - It was NO-CB-Bant strategy, and Proggy was easy handle by any mass color removal like Perish (quite popular), Virtue Ruin, even Wing Shards or premature Extract (used in 43 Lands Control).Quote:
Play a random natural order and win because there is no solution to proggy
- Humility, Cursed Totem, Combo out turn 1-2, S&T-> Sneak Attack, NO ->progenitus. There was many strategies which couldn't be answered by GSZ - anyway thank you for admire that builds was very custom-able which could lead to proper construction for specify meta.Quote:
Have GSZ up to solve every problem you may get, giving you insane redundancy
- MoR could be answered for whole turn. Jitte + flyer, or just two removals could break it, looking at actual meta where we have TNN it isn't a problem. Also -1/-1 effects was all the time present in available card pool - It just wasn't used. Since MoR hould be also hosed by Needle, Engineered Explosives, or just Engineered Plague used as SB vs Elves or Goblins.Quote:
Sit on mor in a format with no good AOE
- Wasteland which was in Stoneblade deck, main wincon vs maverick was always Jace not SFM so I don't see your point here. Do you complain that deck wasn't auto-scoop vs S&T -> Emrakul, control decks had Jace, Goblins had Stingscourger, black decks had Edicts, Green/white had KotR-> Karakas.Quote:
Having an insane toolbox in your manabase (for example a single maze/tower was enough to disrupt the entire gameplan of a stoneforge deck)
Sylvan is a great card in the control matchup. It is OK for there to be good cards against control decks, or even for control decks to have bad matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
When you preview what you write and it turns out to be an absurdly long and segmented post, it should always serve remind you that your response is unnecessary, poorly written, and accomplishes nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
But... this is theSource's B/R update speculation thread. Doesn't that describe most of the posts here? :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
Sad that nothing made it off the Banned List this time.
Also sad that DTT wasn't banned.
Oh well September will be here soon enough.
Doesn't speculation imply analysis based on trends, not baseless boo-hoo and "the best deck is wrecks mine which happens to be a poor meta choice, pls ban."Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Looking forward to your disappointment!Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
This thread is a really great laugh sometimes, stay classy folks.
It's like... The perfect pocket of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm
Inb4 3 months in the future:
Brainstorm is oppressive, x card is seriously flawed. PLS BAN.
3 days later:
NO BAN? WIZARDS DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT LEGACY, I WANT TO BE ABLE TO PLAY MONO GRIZZLY BEARS.
I like you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
Somebody at Wizards must really like this movie :Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasim0ff
http://www.cinemablend.com/images/ne..._day_68538.jpg
lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by quasim0ff
No. :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual
Quote:
Originally Posted by Google
I'm begining to think this is the premise which motivates most of the noise made in this thread!Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I'm deeply saddened that you cannot see me sitting by my desk, drinking a glass of porto although it's Wednesday and reading the thread having a pretty good laugh.
So apparently all those blue decks that are allowed only thanks to Brainstorm's existence - "feed the many different strategies" © - happened to become a mesh of the very same decks that "differ only in their win conditions" somehow and some time in the last two months. Wow, what an unexpected turn of events! I'm surprised to read that "it's all about a shell with 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 4 FoW, 4 DTT" while even back in May or w/e it was the other way around "brainstrom decks dont exist, your idiot kthxbye", all the while the most obvious culprit is still defended with religious vigor "fromat would die, inevitably die!" or How'd We Play the 28Cantrips.dec to Omnishit on Turn2 telenovelle.
Whatwe'reyou're at is a metagame that's blue like a smurf and where the only non-Brainstorm pile that can compete are Elves, a deck that looks like a Who's Who of Broken and Retarded list. (Oh yes, the RG Lands. I know they exist. So what?)
So not only the decks converged - yet they are neither Brainstrom nor blue decks, don't you know that colour means nothing, you can't judge cards by color of their skin - turning the Legacy tournaments into dull and painful experience. The said shell of 16 (or is it 20?) same blue cards stifles the metagame, yet there's still no one in R&D who'd have balls to point at the main reason why this condition persists and then simply chop Brainstorm.
With a gameplay as predictable as nedleeds' posts, there's no point of going to the events, as 85% of games feel the same and there's only one question about a turn1 play: will the Ponder be of Lorwyn?
Thank you very much, Wizards, you ruined my penultimate hobby. Time to sell the Volcs.
Well, that definition says without firm evidence. It doesn't mean no evidence, just not firm evidence. For example, there is evidence that there is at least one planet orbiting Alpha Centauri so the idea that there's one isn't baseless, but there isn't firm evidence of it, so it isn't certain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Speculation may or may not involve evidence, it just means there isn't definite evidence.
Blame it on Heisenbergian Uncertainty or postmodern relativism or Image Over Substance or the ubiquity of advertising and P.R. or the rise of Identity Politics or whatever you will — we live in an era of terrible preoccupation with presentation and interpretation. In rhetorical terms, certain long-held distinctions between the Ethical Appeal, Logical Appeal (= an argument's plausibility or soundness), and Pathetic Appeal (= an argument's emotional impact) have now pretty much collapsed — or rather the different sorts of Appeals now affect and are affected by one another in ways that make it almost impossible to advance an argument on "reason" alone.
The dilemma has nothing to do with whether the arguments themselves are plausible or right or even sane, because the debate rarely gets that far — any opponent with sufficiently strong feelings or a dogmatic bent can discredit the arguments and pretty much foreclose all further discussion with a single, terribly familiar rejoinder: "Of course you'd say that"; "Easy for you to say"; "What right do you have ...?"
The brainstorm/SDT/[any card]debate ultimately devolves into this sort of emotional back and forth, and literally nothing (aside from perhaps near-100% format saturation and undeniable broken-ness) is going to advance the debate and lead to consensus.
@Bed Decks Palyer You drop one of these every couple of months. When's the next one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGcHNnI2mh4
At some point he'll run out of cards/decks to sell
He has yet to say he is selling his Brainstorms...
Of course you'd say that. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
While I don't think that it's anything new or even uniquely modern, your basic point is correct. That being said, whike I understand the frustration that a lot of peole feel toward this thread, a lot of the strife here is because you can't have a serious B/R discussion without agreeing on what to do with Brainstorm - oherwise people are discussing fundamentally different formats. My only gripe with the thread then, is that the most ardent anti-Brainstorm people won't acknowlege that WotC made a decision (probably around the time Mental Misstep was banned) that Brainstorm was either completely untouchable or that there was an incredibly high bar to clear for its banning. Why this happened is debatable, but that it (or a similar decision with the same effect) happened is pretty obvious. Endlessly repeating the same arguments - and there are reasonable arguments for both positions - isn't productive because a Brainstorm ban is clearly not going to happen under the current B/R paradigm and whether it ahould or shouldn't happen is irrelevant. Regardless of how you feel about Brainstorm, it's important to accept that it's legal as 4-of for any discussion of banning or unbanning another card.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Easy for you to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
What right do you have...
Sorry to double post, but Patrick Sullivan makes largely the same point I made above, starting at about 14:20, though he comes closer to what I actually think should happen (banning Ponder, Preordain, and Serum Visions) than I've stated previously:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Sullivan.html
TL;DWQuote:
Originally Posted by btm10
Summarize for us.
The main B/R issue in Legacy isn't Dig Through Time, and it's a little unreasonable to ban every good Blue card that comes along if the real issue is the large number of cantrips, but Brainstorm itself might be enough of an essential feature of the format to be untouchable. Because of those competing dyanmics, we should be talking seriously about banning the tier 2 cantrips before banning anything else in that shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
Before the Khans cards were printed, Death and Taxes -the best of the fair non-blue decks- (no arguments please) was still a viable choice for those interested in playing creatures and not cantrips.
That was probably the only "good" deck that you could play, but there were a tonne of other decks that you could semi-successfully play at any of the local game store weekly events. Even with a deck as outdated and slow as Goblins I would routinely go 2-2/3-1 in the usual local events.
Now the meta is essentially Dig Decks, Miracles and Anti-Dig Decks (loam). All the others have been pushed out and are just unplayable.
The Dig decks are virtually one in the same with their only difference being the win-cons, miracles whether they're pondercles or legend are still the same deck and the loam/chalice decks are pretty obviously much the same.
If you're really enjoying this format because you're doing really well, well done! But that isn't a justification for saying that the format is wide open, because it's quite clearly not.
Hats off to WOTC though on a job well done of making Magic formats across the board well and truly lame.
If that's the base of his article, then I'm lost, becasue banning weak cards before the broken ones is weird It's like bullying a weaker schoolmate instead of kicking the ass of the older boy who's stealing your snacks. Honestly, what he proposes makes absolutely no sense, it's just an evidence of Brainstorm-junkies' troubles.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
What's next in line? Banning Accumulated Knowledge because Ancestral Recall exists? I can't understand what the guy speaks for.
I don't own cards, I own decks.
But when a card like Brainstorm is a pillar of a format, banning it would reset the format overnight. Ponder, Preordain, Serum ban would hurt the Brainstorm decks, but not kill them. If they were going to do something about Brainstorm, it should've happened 6-8 years ago or whenever they restricted the cantrips in Vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Workshops are still totally legal in Vintage, while Trinisphere is restricted. If Wizards always banned the strongest card, Shops wouldn't be a deck anymore. Counterbalance is a shitty card, but works amazingly with Top. Top is a great utility card that's powerful but not game-restricting without CB. I think banning CB would be a legitimate fix. Banning Vengevine might have kept Survival decks at a level Wizards were comfortable with. Whether you ban the better card or the worse card is a case-by-case basis.
And if it comes to the point where every card you print that goes into the graveyard breaks Survival, or whatever for the other cards, then so be it. Make the ban/unban switch. I think Chapin's idea is worth considering to at least shake up the format and make more decks viable, without destroying half of the blue decks.
...that are actually made of... uhm... painted paper things?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
There's nothing about the card brainstorm that makes it essential to the format. The suggestion of banning ponder, preordain, serum visions, and whatever else just to keep it around is ridiculous. The only reason people suggest such asinine things is that all of the people that whine about how they will quit if it's banned. A pillar of the format would suggest that it promotes a certain style of deck, like shops or bazaar in vintage. Brainstorm doesn't do this. It is simply an overpowered card selection tool that at this point you either need to run or hate out, or simply out CA to beat. Everyone suggesting that we ban 3+ incredibly weaker cantrips all in the name of keeping a non essential card to the format sound retarded