Has anyone tried a lantern lock approach with manipulating the drawstep being the 'wincon' itself? Perhaps the lantern core is just too many cards to slot in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
Printable View
Has anyone tried a lantern lock approach with manipulating the drawstep being the 'wincon' itself? Perhaps the lantern core is just too many cards to slot in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
I'm going to a Legacy event this weekend but have low expectations of winning. I certainly do want to have fun durdling is kinda my jam. So so far this is the list I am expecting to register and any ideas to throw my way would be great.
4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
3 tundra
2 volcanic island
2 plains
1 mountain
4 island
3 snapcaster mage
2 jace, the mind-sculptor
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 portent
4 predict
1 spell snare
1 spell pierce
2 counterspell
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
1 engineered explosives
2 burning wish
3 terminus
Sideboard
1 by force
1 from the ashes
1 supreme verdict
1 council's judgment
1 entreat the angels
1 snapcaster mage
2 red elemental blast
2 pyroblast
2 surgical extraction
3 flusterstorm
Right now I am considering cutting the EE and the Council's Judgment from the deck. I would swap the EE for an Unexpectedly Absent and the CJ in the board for an anti-combo card of some sort just for slots reasons. Supreme Verdict has been great vs TNN and DnT decks so far having never needed the CJ. I suppose I could keep it around just because Planeswalkers exist and do do things. Am not sure what to do with that slot.
I might also cut the 4th REB effect for a Canonist. Was originally intending -1 CJ and -1 REB for two Canonists.
Any suggestions or ideas off the top of anybody's head would be helpful. I'm even considering cutting the Burning Wish package but still want to try the idea under the gun at a tournament before I dismiss it.
I bought into MTGO early last week, and my record with the deck is as follows:
13 4-1s
6 3-2s
4 2-3s
Phenomenal, in short, but the 5-0 is very elusive :(.
Got messed up tonight. 1-3 drop and 2-3. Losses were 2 Belcher, 2 Grixis Delver, 1 Grixis Serpant/Reveler, 4c Loam. :cry:
Had a couple of games against lands last night, and found it to be a very tough matchup.
B2B isnt nearly as good against lands as Blood Moon, and i found myself wishing that it was surgical instead.
What are the matchups that B2B has performed for you guys?
I really think we need to reconsider counterbalance for lands/storm etc. & blood moon for lands.
Storm think is fine. I can see Moon maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
* Canonist - While it's great at hosing storm, I feel it doesn't offer as much cross-matchup utility like cbalance or meddling mage. The card has performed very well for me in the storm matchup, but feels like a waste of sideboard space otherwise
* B2B vs Moon - Moon just completely GGs decks like Lands.
Burning Wish for From the Ashes is what I have in mind vs Lands. :D
If you guys want to chat in realtime, we can hijack this discord channel (/r/spikes Legacy...somewhat apropos)
https://discordapp.com/channels/2948...66715693809665
So I just sleeved up this new topless miracles and it feels good but I ran into 2 punishing decks at my LGS so the only way around it is to ETA and bounce their Deeds before that? both times it was against Nic Fit. Game 1 feels real bad when they have P fires online any advice on this?
Nice article and interview Whitefaces
So can we officially call this deck Topsgonewild?
What article?Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...ted-appearanceQuote:
Originally Posted by KZhang
CB does have a spot against Lands. If you are able to have 2 CMC 2 cards in your hand. Just resolve Jace and float 2 CMC 2 cards via Jace activation. This way there's no way Lands player can find opportunity to Pfire or loam before or after your own draw step.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
There is this card called Boseiju, in which Omni-show or Omni-Sneak often like to use. In such case, you should just cantrip your way into Canonist + Disenchant/UA in hand. When they Show and Tell off Boseiju, you can then drop Canonist and most likely they'll drop Omni. If they drop anything else like Griselbrand or a Sneak Attack, it might become an issue, but that's why we run Karakas, and Needle is still a diverse SB card.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
Lands is definitely a lot tougher now, it's part of the reason why there are three Surgical Extraction in my sideboard. I don't think even Blood Moon is that much of a slam dunk vs them. It buys time, but they play Gamble, Krosan Grip, Mox Diamond and basic Forest to get around it pretty easily, you need to back it up with pressure. With CB we were able to cut off the Gamble and Mox Diamond part of that, and also overload their decays. Now I'm not so sure, so I'm going aggro with Mentor and lots of Surgical Snap Surgicals for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by KZhang
Aluren and Food Chain are both bad matchups too, where Canonist helps. I think Storm is being played and good enough to dedicate these sideboard slots to.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
No offense, but if you think Moon is GG vs Lands you need to play it a bit more.
Jace is the usual way to beat Nic Fit, but Punishing Fire is really rough, probably can't beat that in G1. Hope to surgical it G2.Quote:
Originally Posted by RankaLee
Good point on lands. I only have experience playing Turbo Depths at the GP level, but am admittedly not well versed in the RG variant (Can't afford tabernacle).
I will grind 5 leagues with the current stocklist before suggesting any changes.
Happy banniversary guys!
One month and putting up results again! :)
Pretty much the only way i managed to beat them as well. with Mentor, Snaps and Surgical. Not sure if your latest iterations still run B2B, but im considering dropping it completely from the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
- Only really useful for specific matchups.
- For the matchups that we need it most, it does not put us significant ahead as compared to Blood Moon
- For decks that its annoying against: 3-4 colors, it's easier to remove - Red Blasts + land drops
what other matchups has B2B been a must play for you?
Once it comes online, the only way to win pre-board is to dig aggressively for the entreat and attempt to race.Quote:
So I just sleeved up this new topless miracles and it feels good but I ran into 2 punishing decks at my LGS so the only way around it is to ETA and bounce their Deeds before that? both times it was against Nic Fit. Game 1 feels real bad when they have P fires online any advice on this?
I think you don't see the true power of canonist against other combo decks. It's great against sneak and show, it's great at stalling against Food Chain, and it's really really good at drawing the game out to a point where our engine comes online. Let's us one for one forever against burn, for example. Small nuances, but I would much prefer the KNOWN power of the card rather than the unknown power of CB in most cases. Sure it's not a catchall but the card is still extremely powerful and we are well equipped to utilize it with our fist full of countermagic.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
I think B2B is not very good. I was not a big fan. They just fetch + Blast or Decay. Moon and Blast are 2 reasons I am leaning towards the :r: splash. I was trying to think of ways to make :g: or :b: work and I think they'd be more cute than good.
B2B is insane against Eldrazi, but other than that it is underwhelming.Quote:
Originally Posted by itrytostorm
Edit:
For some of us playing BEB in side, I'd suggest that dispel is a better card overall, except in burn matchup you need to kill a red permanent.
In lands infested meta, I would suggest playing sanctum prelate.
After looking at my losses, I think blood moon would help those matches significantly. If I can play some games today, it will be with the :r: splash for moon and blast.
Does the R splash involve 2 volcanics maindeck and one Mountain in the SB like we used to run? I like the Karakas against Marit and Sneak.
The other options against Pfire include TNN or a pro-red critter like Kor Firewalker, who basically bricks the strategy if they don't run another color to get rid of him. Firewalker is also a good card in the Burn matchup. I would not play either of these cards unless your meta is majorly Lands, Jund, Burn, and 4c Loam.
Guys how you plan to answer chalice? Deck runs so much cantrips and UA is temporal answer to chalice. So far as i can see noone is running disenchant in sb or concil judjment. I know that eldrazi for some reason in not popular any more, but chalice is a thing and we must remember about that.
UA + portent/JTMS/predict/response to shuffle effect all deals with Chalice. It's not a compact of an answer as a Disenchant or Wear//Tear, but it's mainboard which is nice. I imagine you could run some number of Judgment/Disenchant/Wear//tear if your meta calls for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeTeP
If Lands and/or greedy mana base decks become a problem And you want to stick to UW, there is a high risk solution: global ruin. It could work if you have some board presences like Jace or Clique and your opponent doesn't have the PFire combo going yet. Also, Needle is a SB card diverse enough to help in this MU.Quote:
Originally Posted by KZhang
If your opponent drops Chalice too early, then it might be too much damages before you find an answer. UA can be a good answer, not just a temporal answer. You need to UA first, then Portent/Predict/Jace the Chalice away immediately. If they shuffle for whatever reasons, you can screw them with just UA in respond.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeTeP
The problem with UA is that it's not a long-term solution against DnT. DnT simply has too many permanents you want to answer to, anything from Vials to equipments to sometimes planeswalker or prelate. A Smart DnT player will not overly commit problematic permanents. Disenchant is definitely diverse enough for you to run in the SB.
The biggest issue with Chalice is against 4c loam/Maverick. They can have a lock of Chalice on 1 and Gaddock Teeg. The Karakas version gives you one potential out, but it can be miserable.
Believe I've mentioned before, Venser is the solution to all your fair deck MUs and sometimes Show and Tell problems, more often than one might think.Quote:
Originally Posted by itrytostorm
In relation to Chalice, people seem to underestimate Dragon Stompy decks, including myself. This deck has been crushing me since Day 2 of GP Chiba. Like many have said, the new Miracles can never actually stabilized via CB like the old Miracles. I understand the motivation behind Skull or Baneslayer. With that said, I feel we can No longer just put in a Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast and call it done. I feel we need to take a more serious look at these aggressive Dragon Stompy and the occasional Burn. I know combo decks would ruin these red mages in the long run, but I would personally consider something like Kor Firewalker. Firewalker is better than CoP or Sphere of Law because it actually attacks Chandra. People complain Firwalker being too narrow, but after you place your usual graveyard and combo hate in the SB, Red hate appears to be the only issue left.
Not sure where you're playing, but I've found the moon stompy decks really easy with this build. I respect them plenty too.
I have actually had zero problems with DnT lately. If I did have a problem it was because Portent is Portent and not SDT. I usually lose because the deck loses to itself like a normal deck now.
I definitely agree with you here. I played Legends Miracles for several months up until Top was banned and felt very comfortable with Venser against a wide range of threats that may have otherwise been troublesome. These include Equipment, Plainswalkers, Marit Lage, Show and Tell, and numerous other ad-hoc applications.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I have not tested Venser in the current meta, but I am curious to see if he's powerful enough to earn a SB spot.
Based on how many basics we run, Moon Stompy doesn't seem that hard unless they catch you with your pants down fetching for Tundras. We run 3 maindeck answers to Chalice and 7 hard counters.
Second this. I preferred the Legends Miracles build myself, and I continually found myself appreciating Venser's flexibility and overall utility. There was practically no problem he wasn't at least a temporary answer for, and very often that temporary answer was just enough to either find a more permanent answer or win the game outright.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampfoot48
I'm trying to find a way to fit a 'Legends Package' (2 Clique, 2 Venser, 2 Karakas) into this build of Topless Miracles, but I'm not sure what to cut.
Without Counterbalance, I'm leery of dropping below 7 Counters (maybe 6?). I want at least 8 removal and some people are running 9, and it seems like the 16 Cantrip package (4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Portent, 4 Predict), is becoming pretty accepted as standard, although I've noticed some are going to 3 Portent and/or Predict.
I've noticed a few decks that tried Venser in the sideboard, has anyone else tried working a Legends Package into their maindeck?
EDIT: Any other suggestions for dealing with Red? I have a lot of Burn in my local meta, and I felt like I was struggling pretty hard against it, so I'm glad to see that other people are having a tough time with that matchup as well.
If you have that much burn, Kor Firewalker, COP Red, and such would be the best thing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterRat1
Couple things
* Have any of you guys run into issues getting UU up early in the game without getting wastelanded to death? Between 2 Plains & 1 Karakas, I've found myself mulling more hands than I would like
* 1x Venser has been really strong out of the board. Helps with S&S, good in the grindy matchups, and pitches to force. That said, I don't think diluting the deck with a clunky 5-6 card legends package is worth it.
* Counterbalance owns burn. The end.
4-1 with UWr. Lost to Elves, beat UR Delver, Belcher, Elves, and Deathblade.
Could you please share more your experience of the red splash?Quote:
Originally Posted by itrytostorm
I am sad to see 'lost to elves', but understandably not as cake-walking as prior to top banning.
I am trying a ~Legends build right now. Things are a lot different now though and I would say that you can add 3 Jace to your list of what's become standard. That being said, I feel that the 3rd Jace necessarily pushes a 2nd possible Venser out of a 4 CMC slot. The list I am testing is as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterRat1
Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Predict
3 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Terminus
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Entreat the Angels
Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
6 Islands
2 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
Sideboard
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
2 Back to Basics
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Here are my matches so far:
Esper Stoneblade: W
Esper Deathblade: W
Sultai Delver: W
Lands: W
Burn: W
Grixis Delver: L
Here are some of my notes / thoughts:
1) I'd like to try a 2nd Karakas like the good ole days, but was really interested in seeing if 20 land in this shell could support a MD Venser with another in the SB. The answer is an emphatic yes, which blows me away since I always played 22 ( +1 Cavern, +1 Karakas ). Then again, that was with only 4 Brainstorms and 2 Ponders.
2) I am experimenting with Leyline over Ethersworn Canonist in the side board to see what impact it has on the Burn matchup, which has been very tough. So far so good, as my lone matchup against it was a hard fought game 1 win on the back of Entreat, followed by a turn 1 win after my opponent conceded to Leyline.
3) I have always had tremendous results with Back to Basics so it's a bit surprising to me that it hasn't been getting the job done for many of those that have posted. I think it would be great to not have to occupy 2 SB slots, but I am very concerned about the Eldrazi matchup now without it. I know the deck's share of the meta has plummeted, but I hate the idea of going into this matchup without the tools to beat it. Maybe I'll end up with just one in the SB, but I can't imagine 0.
4) I am so amazed by the power of all of our new tricks with Unexpectedly Absent / Portent / Jace / Predict! Minniehajj, Whitefaces, ItIsUnfair, and everyone else, thank you for breathing life back into this deck!
Why are you guys so set on the legends build in the first place? Legend miracles mainly arose as a way to combat the mirror while maintaining the same core components that gave miracles a plus matchup vs the rest of the field.
After around 20 league matches, the only thing I'm somewhat concerned with are the counterspell/spell pierce ratio and the amount of non-wastelandable white/blue sources.