[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by tescrin

@apple713
Teeg is tutorable and good against Miracles; that sums that up. Teeg is still good against elves (possibly better than Canonist due to reclamation sage) and roughly as good against Storm while having application elsewhere.

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Canonist is much better than Teeg against storm, unless the only permanent hate they brought in was Massacre for some reason. Canonist stops cantrip chaining in ANT, and delays the BW > Void Snare chain out of TES by a turn, which can make the difference if you're holding discard. The only real downside is if TES has one of those retarded 5 artifacts > Empty draws, which is rare and beatable with SFM anyways.

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

i am well aware that dark confidant and top are a wonderfull combo, but my point was exactly what you said in your example. you do use top in a reactional way where you protect yourself from a theat that might land on the battlefield or from opposing discard.
sylvan library lets you do the same thing but in a different way, plus it lets you keep answers on top of your library as well.
it is true that this might cost you some life but overall library makes your life a bit easier because it makes it possible to threaten your opponent instead of reacting to your opponents threats

this probably comes down a lot to your preferred playstyle and will highly depend on what opponents you are facing

library allthough has the downside compared to top if you absolutely need to react immideately, which top is better in doing so, but in my opinion it is better not to get into the situation of having to react to opponents threats

let me try a different explanation

we are in fact a "tempo-control-deck".
depending on which stance you need more often to take in games you should prefer library or top, but also build your deck accordingly
IMO top is better in the controlish builds because it gives you more options to react, and how to react, and gives you a longterm-advantage because its virtually not possible to destroy top
library is better in the tempoish to midrange builds, because for those builds library will give you a tremendous advantage, but most of the time library gets worse the longer the game goes compared to top

EDIT: i hope i did not blabber some idiotic stuff.... because i am tired as hell :P

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No, that all makes sense. I guess I play more controllish versions of Rock and that is why we value the two cards differently.

@kael
I don't disagree but they both say "You can't win until you get rid of me" which IMO is all you're trying to do: make them spend cards and mana on things they don't want to. I haven't tested Matt's 3xTeeg yet, but I like the look enough to try it out.

Canonist comes in in less MUs (or at least, is just a bear in said matches) and being an artifact is a relevant drawback on occasion. Another potential issue, especially in this deck, comes from [Pressure vs. Discard] or even just [Pressure vs. more Pressure]. The lack of instant speed interaction makes Canonist worse than she should be. In UW her drawback may not be noticable with a Pierce in hand, but this is Junk; the land of sorcery speed interaction.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

@kael
I don't disagree but they both say "You can't win until you get rid of me" which IMO is all you're trying to do: make them spend cards and mana on things they don't want to. I haven't tested Matt's 3xTeeg yet, but I like the look enough to try it out.

Canonist comes in in less MUs (or at least, is just a bear in said matches) and being an artifact is a relevant drawback on occasion. Another potential issue, especially in this deck, comes from [Pressure vs. Discard] or even just [Pressure vs. more Pressure]. The lack of instant speed interaction makes Canonist worse than she should be. In UW her drawback may not be noticable with a Pierce in hand, but this is Junk; the land of sorcery speed interaction.

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Teeg is a huge pain in the balls for Miracles is why I play it as well. Miracles can get out of hand with Terminus at times, but Teeg really reels in the power level.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Teeg is a huge pain in the balls for Miracles is why I play it as well. Miracles can get out of hand with Terminus at times, but Teeg really reels in the power level.

-Matt

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That one of teeg is very hard to keep on the board though. they now run 3 snaps and 4 plows. thats 7 removal spells for them.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

That one of teeg is very hard to keep on the board though. they now run 3 snaps and 4 plows. thats 7 removal spells for them.

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Depends if you're playing the European Miracles list or Lossett Miracles, sometimes people play 0-1 Snaps.

But yeah, I'm really not a fan of Teeg without some sort of protection for it, a la Mother/Safekeeper. Jordan Aisaka has been playing a Bant build that's functionally similar to Junk (plays counters/Brainstorm instead of discard/Bob), and he plays a GSZ package with Safekeeper + Teeg. Apparently it's been pretty successful for him. Have any of you guys tried Safekeeper in a GSZ build?

I'd like to think that if you had DRS and discard to interact with, you should be able to mitigate Plow-problems. Matt runs SoLaS which helps and I run Karakas/KotR which (while rare) is a thing that can complicate the board state.

I fear more from them simply dropping Clique/Snap in front of Teeg for a trade or being on a Clique/Karakas build where he just becomes a very enthusiastic child. A snap build is less likely (unless they're boarding out snaps) to RiP you either; which is a good thing probably.

With that out of the way; I'll point out that Matt was running 3 Teeg (instead of 1) with a GSZ and so he has a better chance of keeping one there. I've gone from my 1 Teeg, 2 Canonist, 2-3 Thalia SB to a 3 Teeg 3 Thalia for testing. I've been adequately happy with Thalia in basically any MU worth bringing her in on but combo has been so suppressed in my Meta that Teeg cries cold tears in my SB.

EDIT: Matt's Mages also offer a form of protection (aside from the SoLaS) which can lock Miracle's non-Sphere non-Judgement removal. I'm not sold on the mages yet, but that's mostly on the back of Thalia's applicability to Burn, S&T, and random Delvers.


As an aside; I tried out a triplicate of Tidehollow Scullers last night to mix sword-carriers with discard.
I was not happy.

Where do you bring in Thalia that you would not bring in Teeg? They've always gone pretty much hand in hand for me in my sideboarding.

Delver match ups I could see. Teeg doesn't do anything there, but in the delver match, making all of their 1 mana things cost 2 and free spells cost 1 while having a threat that battles nicely is alright.

For GWB decks to do anything against Miracles, I feel you must corner them into 1-2 actions a turn. Their constant brainstorm + top bullcrap buries you in card-quality advantage. No amount of Abrupt Decays and discard can contend with what they sandbag in the top 3. The only way to mitigate their CQA over the long-haul is an active Liliana forcing discards. Because this is not always possible, you're looking for Maverick answers in a deck that isn't Maverick (no Mom or hate-bear team to assemble).

If I had to pick 1 bear, I'd go with Thalia. While she DOES hamper you, she's a clock against all their creatures. Teeg loses to an ambusing Snapcaster, Snapcaster --> STP, and Clique/Venser. By contrast, Thalia's first strike and built-in Daze is a fantastic blend. Suddenly, Miracles' brainstorms and tops cost [2]. Holding them off Jace for a turn also changes the dynamic of the game. Junk also lends itself to running 4x Goyfs -- a way more efficient clock than Maverick (except for lady KotR). I see Junk pressuring enough with Thalia + Goyf on the table. This lets you sit on discard (send you over-the-top) or creatures (avoid the overextended board).

The only counter-argument would be if your Junk build had 3-4x GSZ. Then finding Teeg isn't as terrible.

Oh, and Sylvan Library 2-3x certainly makes the matchup easier to contend with. They have zero pressure early, so you can suicide for raw card-advantage into homerun spells like Hymn, Souls, Decay, Liliana.

The whole point is to force Miracles down a path they don't want to be. Needling Top/Jace, Gripping Top/CB, Decaying Counterbalance, discarding Top/Jace, playing Gaddock Teeg, Lingering Souls, Liliana, creatures with Equipment, and Sylvan Library all force them down awkward paths they don't want to be on. The deck does very poorly without an active Top, Counterbalance becomes a liability, and they can't gain advantage with Teeg stopping their Miracle plays. You cut off more and more avenues as your progress through the game.

Gaddock Teeg is VERY important in the Miracles matchup, STP or not. They can't let Confidant live either. They don't have enough removal and counterspells to deal with all of our crap, most of the time. If you're pushing with an unequipped Gaddock Teeg into open mana, you're asking to get ambush viper'd, that's why you don't attack like that. Gaddock Teeg is too valuable and the damage isn't worth it, that's why you go for SoFI or SoLaS (I'm currently running Feast and Famine to try it out and it's better in every other matchup except Miracles). Meddling Mage also comes in against Miracles to name STP. With Meddling Mage and Teeg, they can't win the game.

Sylvan Safekeeper is a hard lock against Miracles with Gaddock Teeg. I used to play him when I played more GSZ and he was stellar. He's also great against the Delver decks and midrange mirrors since you can just blank their removal, and it's unlikely they have two pieces and you do not have enough lands. He was also excellent with Knight when you could sac all your lands and just alpha your opponent.

Thalia is a better bear against some Combo decks, but Meddling Mage is even better, especially in conjunction with Gaddock Teeg.

Sylvan Library wins games against Control and other midrange mirrors. It just does. I played last night and it is disgustingly powerful, especially against Miracles. Joe and I played at SCG Seattle and even he agrees.

Thalia is fine against the Delver decks, I agree, but you can get trapped into situations where you get locked out by your own Thalia. You just have to be careful.

-Matt

Does anybody have some rock lists integrating dark depths combo into it? Perhaps it's terrible, but I was throwing around a list which ended up being pretty fun:

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith

2 Living Wish
2 Crop Rotation
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Vesuva
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas

Untuned of course, just a sample concept. I was mostly curious about if anybody has played along this route at all and how it turned out for them.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Sylvan Safekeeper is a hard lock against Miracles with Gaddock Teeg.

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I wish this were true, but they play Karakas.

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Originally Posted by Dissection

I wish this were true, but they play Karakas.

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it is actually a hardlock, because safekeeper protects from spells, and abilities

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Originally Posted by AggroSteve

it is actually a hardlock, because safekeeper protects from spells, and abilities

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Aha, my bad!

It's a hard lock until you run out of lands. You still need to win before they can bounce Teeg.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

It's a hard lock until you run out of lands. You still need to win before they can bounce Teeg.

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You should have enough time to find a Wasteland or a KotR.

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

Where do you bring in Thalia that you would not bring in Teeg? They've always gone pretty much hand in hand for me in my sideboarding.

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Sometimes Teeg misses the boat on S&T; he can be relevant, but I've definitely had Teeg sitting there when they just S&T into Sneak; which feels really dumb. I would probably board in Thalia against Lands decks to slow down PFire chains and such. Teeg will come in against burn, but he's pretty garbage there.

Normally, for me, the reason they come into together is not just for combo hate but to turn my deck more aggro or something. A couple extra Bears do the trick sometimes.



EDIT: See my belligerent comment in the post below.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

What deck carries more Plows than you have lands? I'd imagine you're unlikely to run out of lands before they find enough Plow-Snap-Plows to get there.

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He's meaning running out of lands due to Karakas being activated each turn, not Ploughs.

Major derp on my part. Carry on.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

SoLaS ... SoFaF [is] better in every other matchup except Miracles

-Matt

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No it's not?

Liliana decks - your card advantage comes from discard, which becomes irrelevant quickly with both sides having Liliana in the decks. This makes SoFaF a means to untap your lands after you've already spent gobs of mana. I'd rather get cards from my grave.

Junk/D&T/Esper - I'd rather not lose my threats to plow

Burn/tempo - Gaining life is good.