[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by nimkee

Is surgical over macabre used bc of wasteland (and loam)?

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Somewhat. The key difference between the two is that Macabre is (virtually) uncounterable. This is part of why UB Reanimator is far more dangerous for us than BR Reanimator: I've never lost a game to a Turn 1 Sire of Insanity, and I've even beaten Turn 1 Sire and Griselbrand, because against the latter you can pretty much guarantee that your shit will resolve. However, a Turn 1 Tidespout with countermagic to back it up? You probably just lose on the spot if you aren't running Macabre and they're on the play. Surgical is much more powerful against decks that rely on an engine - Lands and Dredge being two examples - because you can strip out an entire part of that engine, and then combined with Bojuka Bog and Vesuva it's usually enough. It's also stronger against decks that can't immediately kill you with their graveyard: even if your Surgical gets countered against most fair decks, it means they have one less counterspell for your big threats. It also has play against BUG and RUG decks since they sometimes run a fun-of Life From the Loam.

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Originally Posted by Zotmaster

It also has play against BUG and RUG decks since they sometimes run a fun-of Life From the Loam.

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Still doesn't stop Zur's Weirding.

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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...94a53d9bd0.jpg

A friend of mine (and excellent artist) created what is basically the ultimate 12 Post playmat. Check it out:
https://www.inkedgaming.com/collecti...d-glass-titans


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Thanks for sharing, order has been placed [emoji2]

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Originally Posted by btm10

Still doesn't stop Zur's Weirding.

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That was mean ;)

Hope you're doing well, my friend :)

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but not all hope is lost! Miracles is crawling back from the grave.

Miracles is currently the 4th seat in the MTGO metagame. Apparently without Top/Counterbalance; 4 ponder, brainstorm, portent and predicts allow the deck to still function.

I think it's time to start brewing again. :-)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b26b994959.jpg

This seems nuts. Maybe even nuts enough to be worth running Cascading Cataracts for?


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Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b26b994959.jpg

This seems nuts. Maybe even nuts enough to be worth running Cascading Cataracts for?

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I'll grant that it's worth testing: the +1 is my favorite part of it. I've actually been trying to test the current incarnation of Bolas: +3 for permanent destruction is pretty awesome. So far I'm finding they're a little too awkward to play, even with enablers like Eureka and Selvala's Stampede. Plus I keep jumping from idea to idea like a hyperactive 6-year-old. We'll see.

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Originally Posted by Zotmaster

I'll grant that it's worth testing: the +1 is my favorite part of it. I've actually been trying to test the current incarnation of Bolas: +3 for permanent destruction is pretty awesome. So far I'm finding they're a little too awkward to play, even with enablers like Eureka and Selvala's Stampede. Plus I keep jumping from idea to idea like a hyperactive 6-year-old. We'll see.

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Oath of Nissa comes to mind here.

Every time I had Eureka last night it got hit by a duress or a cabal. Thats not necessarily a bad thing I suppose. The problem is Im not casting it before turn 4...which might not be a bad if I keep the control deck mentality in mind. I really like the idea of dropping walkers or prime times off of Eureka.

I cant see running bolas without oath tbh. Is he really better than Ugin?

Has anyone continued testing the new nissa in the ug build with the evolving meta? I can only imagine how bad it would feel playing brainstorm against Leovold, as I rarely play decks with cantrips.

2 candle sales have fallen through in the past month. A 3rd one...is supposedly on its way. Finding these things is trickier than I expected where I live. Magus as a tutor target with gsz has been lackluster at best. Candling a Maze has to feel great. I will continue to just imagine it for now.

On a positive note, I almost always search up my one of vet exploder tho. He has been a 100% all star every game, and ramps me into bigger stuff quite nicely while making my land-drops with posts or other utility land. Explorer also plays nicely with Tabernacle.

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I played a few matches with post today, one against another post player, UG post with Nissa's Oath, Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library, Sorin Grim Nemesis, and LotV. He setup an Ugin flip to my face with Sorin, which was good to know as I hard a Eureka in hand.

His deck consistency was based on Mirri's, Sylvan, Crop rotation, brainstorm, and Oath. Fetches of course reset the top. I didn't see all of what he had, but early game it seems weaker to aggro than a C/g build, or the titan hybrid I'm playing. Maps to search up silver bullets, or Stirrings to dig 5 cards deep seem better tbh. Getting to maze / tabernacle / Karakas seems like it would be more problematic in the UG build above. While the Sorin or the Lilliana seem good, I don't know if its much more powerful than what we are already doing. At 6 mana a primetime provides a lot of flexibility. Lilliana sitting in hand unless an Oath is in play doesn't seem super great either.

If I see him again I'll ask for his decklist, see if he posts here at all.

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Originally Posted by nimkee

Oath of Nissa comes to mind here.
I cant see running bolas without oath tbh. Is he really better than Ugin?

Has anyone continued testing the new nissa in the ug build with the evolving meta? I can only imagine how bad it would feel playing brainstorm against Leovold, as I rarely play decks with cantrips.

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I think the new Nicol Bolas is a powerful card, but to try jamming into 12 post is odd. Seems to move away from the end goal of what the original idea of this deck is about. I agree that Ugin is more of a card you would need in this deck or even just running Karn Liberated is just as powerful. Both of those are much easier to cast as well without some crazy line up of lands and Oaths just to be able to cast.

I've been playing a blue heavy build with Nissa and have enjoyed her capabilities. The Scry effect is wonderful! She is tough to get running properly without Oath of Nissa though. I had a great game the other night against elves. I brainstormed got her and a glacial chasm. topped her with chasm below. Opponent was geared up to combo next turn so I was able to play nissa, used her 0 and plopped glacial chasm down to regulate the field. Turned the game by getting titan running quickly after and won the match. Her 0 ability definitely needs cantrips to support it feels like most of the time. I run 4 ponders and 4 brainstorms with 4 FoW and 1 Spell pierce for support.

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Originally Posted by Skriger

I think the new Nicol Bolas is a powerful card, but to try jamming into 12 post is odd. Seems to move away from the end goal of what the original idea of this deck is about. I agree that Ugin is more of a card you would need in this deck or even just running Karn Liberated is just as powerful. Both of those are much easier to cast as well without some crazy line up of lands and Oaths just to be able to cast.

I've been playing a blue heavy build with Nissa and have enjoyed her capabilities. The Scry effect is wonderful! She is tough to get running properly without Oath of Nissa though. I had a great game the other night against elves. I brainstormed got her and a glacial chasm. topped her with chasm below. Opponent was geared up to combo next turn so I was able to play nissa, used her 0 and plopped glacial chasm down to regulate the field. Turned the game by getting titan running quickly after and won the match. Her 0 ability definitely needs cantrips to support it feels like most of the time. I run 4 ponders and 4 brainstorms with 4 FoW and 1 Spell pierce for support.

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What creatures are you playing mainboard now? I remember suggesting Sylvan Carytid to you a while back. I have yet to try Nissa and am really looking at trying her soon. Been on an Infect grind for a little bit:p

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Originally Posted by Roweboater

What creatures are you playing mainboard now? I remember suggesting Sylvan Carytid to you a while back. I have yet to try Nissa and am really looking at trying her soon. Been on an Infect grind for a little bit:p

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I dumped that list. Seemed too slow and was getting knocked out too quickly. Couldnt handle any combo decks at all and they are flooding our meta right now.

Here is my new list:

1x Bojuka Bog
4x Brainstorm
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
4x Crop Rotation
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Expedition Map
1x Eye of Ugin
4x Force of Will
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
2x Oath of Nissa
2x Pithing Needle
3x Ponder
4x Primeval Titan
4x Show and Tell
2x Spell Pierce
4x Tropical Island
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Vesuva

//Sideboard
3x Flusterstorm
4x Krosan Grip
3x Surgical Extraction
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Thought-Knot Seer

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Originally Posted by Skriger

I dumped that list. Seemed too slow and was getting knocked out too quickly. Couldnt handle any combo decks at all and they are flooding our meta right now.

Here is my new list:

1x Bojuka Bog
4x Brainstorm
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
4x Crop Rotation
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Expedition Map
1x Eye of Ugin
4x Force of Will
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
2x Oath of Nissa
2x Pithing Needle
3x Ponder
4x Primeval Titan
4x Show and Tell
2x Spell Pierce
4x Tropical Island
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Vesuva

//Sideboard
3x Flusterstorm
4x Krosan Grip
3x Surgical Extraction
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Thought-Knot Seer

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How do you find this list performing? I may just use this and see how it feels.

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Originally Posted by Roweboater

How do you find this list performing? I may just use this and see how it feels.

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I've only tossed it at friends at the moment. Against eldrazi stompy, elves, B/U Reanimator, Shardless, Vial goblins, Landstill, U/R Delver. It's okay feels pretty solid control still not entirely sold on it yet. TKS are awesome against delver decks. I used to run them in the sb when our meta went delver heavy. It still feels clunky to me. More and more the mono green versions are sounding better again.

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Originally Posted by Skriger

I've only tossed it at friends at the moment. Against eldrazi stompy, elves, B/U Reanimator, Shardless, Vial goblins, Landstill, U/R Delver. It's okay feels pretty solid control still not entirely sold on it yet. TKS are awesome against delver decks. I used to run them in the sb when our meta went delver heavy. It still feels clunky to me. More and more the mono green versions are sounding better again.

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How does the blue count feel for fow? How is pierce over fstorm?

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Originally Posted by nimkee

I played a few matches with post today, one against another post player, UG post with Nissa's Oath, Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library, Sorin Grim Nemesis, and LotV. He setup an Ugin flip to my face with Sorin, which was good to know as I hard a Eureka in hand.

His deck consistency was based on Mirri's, Sylvan, Crop rotation, brainstorm, and Oath. Fetches of course reset the top. I didn't see all of what he had, but early game it seems weaker to aggro than a C/g build, or the titan hybrid I'm playing. Maps to search up silver bullets, or Stirrings to dig 5 cards deep seem better tbh. Getting to maze / tabernacle / Karakas seems like it would be more problematic in the UG build above. While the Sorin or the Lilliana seem good, I don't know if its much more powerful than what we are already doing. At 6 mana a primetime provides a lot of flexibility. Lilliana sitting in hand unless an Oath is in play doesn't seem super great either.

If I see him again I'll ask for his decklist, see if he posts here at all.

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Hehe, that was my "jumping from idea to idea like a hyperactive six-year-old man-child" list. Frankly, I threw together that list after seeing the new Mr. Bolas and you asking about Nissa. The walkers are mostly based on the "Texas Walker" list someone posted some pages ago (I think it was before the top ban and can't find it anymore. Can't remeber how they named the idea, but it was walker something...). If I remember correctly, he even wrote a short article about it.

While I agree with Skriger (Ugin, Karn, original idea of the deck, ...) argument, I don't think Oath is inconsistent. Surprisingly it's been very consistent for me. With Brainstorm, guile, and Library you can avoid drawing the wrong walker/card most of the time.

I've played all sorts of builds since the top ban, mostly trying to replace the top with either, ponder, guile, library. To be frank, the most consistent success I've had was with Rock Lee's Cg list (slightly personalized). The only problem with that list is the three extra candles I don't own.

Here's the hyperactive six-year-old man-child list you were inquiring about:

Land (26)

1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
3x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island
2x Vesuva

Artifact (1)

1x Candelabra of Tawnos

Planeswalker (10)

1x Chandra Ablaze
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Karn Liberated
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Creature (6)

1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Enchantment (8)

2x Mirri's Guile
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Sylvan Library

Instant (8)

4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation

Sorcery (2)

2x Show and Tell

Sideboard (15)

4x Flusterstorm
3x Krosan Grip
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Trickbind
2x Vexing Shusher

This list needs work, and I'm not sure about many of the card choices. Probably some walkers could get removed, and some added. Later on, I added needles, to protect my lands. On the other hand, I was able to cast my walkers consistently, and oath missed only once, this proved to me that the "Texas Walker" idea is theoretically feasible, which was the point of this little experiment. Even if Oath gets destroyed, you will most likely draw into another one. Maybe running Cataracts would be an option here (I will try it).

A mix of guile/library has been working for me quite well in this build, or the GSZ builds. With fetchlands, Gsz and other shuffle effects you can see a new top deck on each upkeep/draw step for free and get the best card. It can't replace top but dropping guile on T1 and then setting your draws for the rest of the game feels very strong. Once you're behind/low on the cards guile becomes less useful, since you need to wait for a whole turn to see another top deck and draw the potential answer naturally. It doesn't work well with SnT, because you often need that extra card draw (which top enabled) to assemble the combo.

I'm not sure I like Nissa after the top ban. I noticed I'm rarely using her +0 (which is the strongest ability in my opinion). Before the top was banned I was able to play a few games, and it was much, much easier to use her +0 to good effect. Scy 2 isn't really what we want I think. While we can easily achieve her ultimate, it's often too little too late to change the game state.

P.s. I've added Nahiri, the harbinger over 1x Nissa. Her ultimate seems like it could work perfectly in a walker post.

Hey, nice to hear from you and good write up! Its great people are testing new things. I am still in the process of getting comfortable with a more "stock" list as I don't have a ton of experience with the archetype (nic fit 8 post, big elrazi, now green titan post with a white splash for sideboard cards). The funny thing is, even with over a dozen matches I am not using the white splash sideboard cards like RIP or Teeg...and am thinking of just dropping it for more forests, a conclusion which I am guessing some of the older members have already come to some time back. This archetype is probably the most fun since I've played Maverick.

re: walker post (straight brewer nonsense...read on at your discretion, just throwing out ideas)

I played the Doubling Moon Oath Walker Modern deck for a short bit, and I like the idea of Oath, though wonder which walkers (and shell?) are most useful. Ugin and Karn seem like no brainers in a more colorless build, but Ugin's -X wipes your own enchantments plus some of your own walkers. How about the other choices? Sorin seems like a great combat walker, plus card advantage engine. New Liliana might be better in this build than the older one. Chandra Flamecaller vs ablaze gives you a board wipe plus card advantage. I also wonder if a more Temur centered walker post would be feasible. Ral Zarek gives you an untap with candle or a cloudpost, or an eye if you have the mana open. This build would allow you to not have stranded cards while still utilizing oath. Jace Architect gives you CA or can slow a swarm of weenies.

Bare with me, but Surrak Dragonclaw eot, and untapping into a prime time would be hilarious. He has flash. Can't be countered (nor can any of your other creatures once he is out). Can't be bolted. Can't be fatal pushed. Can't be AD'd. Flash gets around Lilliana. You can GSZ him if you run that package. He is also protected by your own karakas. Also, I really like Eureka in a more walker heavy build. Siding in Bloodmoon and siding out higher end stuff while having access to Oath would be funny against some decks, possibly a thing.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on Nissa too, that makes a lot of sense. Good to know! The more I dink around, the more it seems like that C/g build is well placed. I like the prime-time / don't die to chalice version of post, and will keep brewing with that. Having a couple of real main deck also seems like a good idea in the UG build.

If you ever want to test on xmage shoot me a message - I am decent at piloting dragon stompy, tezzeret, maverick, and once upon a time grixis and UR delver if you want to cram some games and give some new lists a try.

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

Hehe, that was my "jumping from idea to idea like a hyperactive six-year-old man-child" list. Frankly, I threw together that list after seeing the new Mr. Bolas and you asking about Nissa. The walkers are mostly based on the "Texas Walker" list someone posted some pages ago (I think it was before the top ban and can't find it anymore. Can't remeber how they named the idea, but it was walker something...). If I remember correctly, he even wrote a short article about it.

While I agree with Skriger (Ugin, Karn, original idea of the deck, ...) argument, I don't think Oath is inconsistent. Surprisingly it's been very consistent for me. With Brainstorm, guile, and Library you can avoid drawing the wrong walker/card most of the time.

I've played all sorts of builds since the top ban, mostly trying to replace the top with either, ponder, guile, library. To be frank, the most consistent success I've had was with Rock Lee's Cg list (slightly personalized). The only problem with that list is the three extra candles I don't own.

Here's the hyperactive six-year-old man-child list you were inquiring about:

Land (26)

1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
3x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island
2x Vesuva

Artifact (1)

1x Candelabra of Tawnos

Planeswalker (10)

1x Chandra Ablaze
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Karn Liberated
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Creature (6)

1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Enchantment (8)

2x Mirri's Guile
4x Oath of Nissa
2x Sylvan Library

Instant (8)

4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation

Sorcery (2)

2x Show and Tell

Sideboard (15)

4x Flusterstorm
3x Krosan Grip
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Trickbind
2x Vexing Shusher

This list needs work, and I'm not sure about many of the card choices. Probably some walkers could get removed, and some added. Later on, I added needles, to protect my lands. On the other hand, I was able to cast my walkers consistently, and oath missed only once, this proved to me that the "Texas Walker" idea is theoretically feasible, which was the point of this little experiment. Even if Oath gets destroyed, you will most likely draw into another one. Maybe running Cataracts would be an option here (I will try it).

A mix of guile/library has been working for me quite well in this build, or the GSZ builds. With fetchlands, Gsz and other shuffle effects you can see a new top deck on each upkeep/draw step for free and get the best card. It can't replace top but dropping guile on T1 and then setting your draws for the rest of the game feels very strong. Once you're behind/low on the cards guile becomes less useful, since you need to wait for a whole turn to see another top deck and draw the potential answer naturally. It doesn't work well with SnT, because you often need that extra card draw (which top enabled) to assemble the combo.

I'm not sure I like Nissa after the top ban. I noticed I'm rarely using her +0 (which is the strongest ability in my opinion). Before the top was banned I was able to play a few games, and it was much, much easier to use her +0 to good effect. Scy 2 isn't really what we want I think. While we can easily achieve her ultimate, it's often too little too late to change the game state.

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Originally Posted by nimkee

Hey, nice to hear from you and good write up! Its great people are testing new things.

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Hi man, thanks for the invite.

If you're splashing white, I highly recommend running at least two canonists in the board.

Most of the time I don't mind Ugin exiling my crap since I'm usually way ahead at that point and the wipe hurts the opponent more.
I'm running Chandra Flamecaller, that was a type-o (I don't know how to export decklists from xmage?). Surak may be better in a more creature heavy build? I've played with Eureka in other builds; I guess one would run it over SnT in a walker post, yes.

All right, this time I mean it. I'll be playing/streaming today's Legacy challenge, which starts about 50 minutes from now. Come watch an appropriate amount of shenanigans and laugh at my misplays!

http://twitch.tv/zotmaster

12 Post is NOW on cam @SnapCasters2U (MTFFirst) (twitch)