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Well I wanted to try it and see how Venser might impact those matchups listed above that people were having a tough time with such as Lands. Which, by the way, I just played in league against a very good player and absolutely blew him out both games due to Venser/Entreat game 1 and Venser/Surgical game 2. Unless they they can execute a very early mana denial plan with Exploration and Loam, the matchup is laughable.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
https://ibb.co/krt5Av
Oh god, I typed out a whole long thing that got eaten, so I'll keep this relatively short.
Another hot 5-0, total record 14-6.
Decklist:
20 lands
4 Snapcaster mage
4 Brainstorm, ponder, portent, predict
4 Force of will
3 Counterspell
3 Unexpectedly absent
2 Swords
4 Terminus
3 Jace
1 Entreat
Sideboard:
4 Flusterstorm
3 Canonist
3 Clique
2 Surgical
2 Mentor
1 Containment priest
Round 1: JeffHoogland deadguy ale ft gideon of the trials.
2-0
I stop his Bobs, terminus his board, and demonstrate that JTMS > LOTV. I had a little fun with the combo of clique karakas + his spirit of the labyrinth but punt away my clique shortly after the party began.
Round 2: Omsneakscience.
2-1
Game 1 I get turn 2'd. 13 card in. Games 2-3 I slam hatebears and cast flusterstorms.
Round 3: Turbo Depths.
2-1
These games were off the walls nuts and incredibly enjoyable. Game one took 15 minutes off of both of our clocks with him landing an early sylvan library that eventually finds itself expectedly absent. He plays around portent into terminus expertly but slowly I manage to get out from under the gun. I believe that I went up to storm count 6 on my turn to set up a terminus.
Game two I keep a risky hand of karakas + 6 spells but find my way to drawing some lands. Unfortunately, he handles my karakas and shreds my hand followed by my face.
Game three, he shreds my hand but a nice randy predict fuels me back up and I manage his first Lage and surgical his depths.
Round 4: LewisCBR delver.
2-1
I don't remember the specifics of these games. Game one, Jace on an empty board took over. Game two, double delver slammed me. Game three, Snapcaster incremental value eventually overpowered him.
Round 5: Deathblade
2-1
Game one, I almost get there after resolving three jaces but creeping tar pit is really good when you only have two swords. Game two, I demonstrate the new engine. He misses a land drop and I promptly start portenting and absenting bricks on top of his deck while snapcasters flood the board. I think I cast timewalk like six times that game and it felt great. Game three, Monastery Mentor threw a party at his house while he was out of town.
I'm a big fan of four snapcasters, though may cut one to make room for a third swords. Otherwise, I would be very hesitant to make changes to the maindeck. I am a huge fan of the third unexpectedly absent as the timewalk plan requires a critical number of pieces to be viable.
The two cards I am most scared of right now are punishing fire and loam. All of our win cons get blasted by fire and loam can out grind us easily. Surgical extraction, while helpful, is a poor answer to these cards as a good pilot can minimize exposure and surgical will be unlikely to hit when it needs to. I think if these matchups become more common, meddling mage deserves a strong look as a house against them and a respectable hatebear #3 for other combos.
Oh man that is priceless!Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamham
Nice work on the 5-0!
Went 3-1 with stock list on daily event at local store yesterday, loosing only to BR Reanimator in 3 close games. Other matches were Dark Maverick (2-1), DeadGuy (2-0), ANT (2-1).
How do you side out against reanimator? I had all kind of hate (SE, Flusterstorm, Containment Priest etc) after sideboarding and still lost to a bunch of discard spells and lonely angel reanimated. Is it correct not to side out 2 Swords and keep them as possible answer to beater?
What do you think about Leyline of Sanctity? It helps against all kind of discard decks (combo mostly) and stops some others, like Burn. But 4 slots is a lot, not sure if it's worth it.
I take basically the same approach vs Reanimator as I do vs sneak and show -> If the creature hits play, you are probably boned.
-1 STP (Keep 2), -3 JTMS, -4 Terminus, +2 Surgical, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Vclique, +2 Monastery Mentor, +1 Containment Priest
Yesterday got 3-1 on Legacy at our local store.
List was:
3 Snapcaser, 3 Swords, 3 UA, no Karakas? 9 basics, 8 fetches
Lost to RUG Rogue - he got plenty of stifles both games and Tnn + Mongoose, i got 0 Terminus and counterspells both games.
Won vs DnT 2:0, Maverick 2:0 and Team America - 2-1.
Portent on t1 into opponents ponder is priceless.
Deck runs really smoothly, but ofc, sometimes you just got cantrip to cantrip to cantrip, while 2 delvers are killing you very fast (1-st game vs TA).
Entreat is very good, so as sideboard mentors.
I prefer BtB over blood moon, because i do no whant to loose ability to fetch, and shuffle away anything. Also, some time ago we had Eldrazy heavy metam so BtB was mostly for them.
i really do not know what to do with burn. I have 2 chills in SB, but i afraid it will e better to put 3 Kor Firewalker.
Played 2 matches vs burn on MTGO with counterbalance in the sideboard. This is the answer guys.
Nothing is "standard" until GP:LV, or until someone Top 8 with Portent Miracles at a major Legacy tournament. At its infancy, creativity and testing out different card choices are more important than limiting ourselves to set structures. With that said, SFM package is still bad, imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampfoot48
My current SB:
1 Pithing needle -> Stage, Chandra....
2 Canonist -> Can run into Massacre if not careful
1 CB -> Still good against Elves and Storm, let's say you're locked by Chalice on 1, CB blind flip and then Predict can generate CA such that you'll find your UA.
1 Kor Firewalker -> Burn, Dragon stompy
1 Venser -> Any Fair MU
1 Back to Basics -> Greedy 4cc stuff, Lands
1 Rest in Peace
1 Blue Elemental Blast -> Burn, Dragon stompy, Sneak Attack
1 Disenchant -> Vial decks, Exploration, Chalice
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical
1 Supreme Verdict -> Tempo decks, any decks that like to Stifle Miracles trigger
I've not had that problem. Of course there will be games where you have no choice but to play duals and they get wasted, but I tend to spend the first few turns building up a basics only manabase vs decks with Wasteland, even if there is a Delver or DRS on the board and I have a Swords to Plowshares. Once you're established and can play around Dazes and whatnot you can deal with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
Agree re the Legends package. It was better when Counterbalance was around in the mirror, it's very poor vs Delver. Of course Venser is a really nice a flexible card that can lead to blowouts. But are these blowouts things that we couldn't answer anyway? Teeg + Chalice is one of the only situations I can think of? And that 'lock' was true for the previous versions of Miracles anyway, it's still good vs us.
1) Cantrips are busted :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampfoot48
2) Leyline is very good. If Storm goes back to decays to fight our 'protect the queen' plan with Canonist, then I think I'll try them.
3) I've dropped Back to Basics online as there's not as many matchups where we'd want it there, but I play it in real life. Punishing Fire is one of the best cards vs us, so I'd like B2B or Moon to fight that first and formost as bringing in Surgical vs Jund or whatever feels miserable. Might try From the Ashes again too. These have some heavy splash damage vs stuff like Eldrazi, Post etc
4) No problem, I'm really glad people are enjoying it and having success!
Nice job! I was watching Hoogland stream, you played really well (you're Moa right?). You also have the same versions of everything as me :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamham
Agree on Fire and Loam. Mage is a great answer to these two cards, but I feel like it's lackluster vs a lot of other things and wouldn't pull its weight in the sb. B2B/Moon/FtA might be a better way to attack these problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Full-House
I SB very differently vs BR than UB Rea and Sneak and Show. I keep all StP and Jaces vs BR as you actually win a lot of games after a creature resolves, Jace is insane vs them.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
Roughly
+ Surgicals, Flusters, Cliques, Priest
- UA, Terminus (some BR have a lot more Grave Titans, keep some of these if they're on that plan), can shave a predict.
Sometimes they nut draw you, just have to accept it vs that deck.
Blood Moon is incredible, Pyroblast is amazing. Just wish I had a Staticaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsang
fuuuuuuuuu another 4-1
* 0-2 vs Tezzerator
* 2-1 vs Sneak and Show
* 2-0 vs Grixis Delver
* 2-0 vs Death Shadow Delver
* 2-0 vs Sneak and Show
Sideboard
* 3 Pyroblast
* 2 Flusterstorm
* 2 Ethersworn - This card is INSANE vs S&S. You basically can't lose if it hits play.
* 2 Mentor
* 1 Vclique
* 1 Venser
* 2 Blood Moon
* 2 Surgicla
My sideboard was close:Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
1x Blood Moon (1 main)
1x Containment Priest
2x Canonist
2x Fluster
1x Gideon AoZ
2x Mentor
3x Pyroblast
2x Surgical
1x Venser
How is the red splash working for people? Are you winning games that you wouldn't be able to win otherwise with it? And have the Volcs being Wastelanded cost you any games (as they could be Islands otherwise)?
Won me that match vs sneak and show with red blasts
Just curious, is there an FB group for Miracles? I've always thought that discussions on FB (or Discord) are great as well.
Pyroblasts have helped S&S, high tide, storm, Grixis, UB & UR Delver, Merfolk so far. Moon crushed Deathblade, helps a lot against elves so far, but should help against lands, 4c loam, bug delver which had hurt before. The times wasteland got me are minimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
http://i.imgur.com/47ciZAL.png
Been keeping track for the sake of helping my bad matches.
This link does not work :(Quote:
Originally Posted by jdmdave
Ok cool, cheers for the feedback!
If you could post a working link for the discord I'll join in too :smile:
someone setup a miracles discord. I'll join
Conversely, we can just join the reddit /r/spikes discord channel.
https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comm...scord_channel/
https://discord.gg/hVhkvEW
Come say hi!
5-0 on my first league attempt with this deck! Beginners luck!
Deck played out very smoothly.
1) Jund: 2-1
2) Painter Stone: 2-0
3) BUG Delver: 2-1
4) TES: 2-0
5) Aggroloam: 2-1
My List:
Main
4 Flooded Strands
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Predict
3 Counterspell
4 Force of will
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
3 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Entreat the Angels
Sideboard
3 x Flusterstorm
3 x Ethersworn Canonist
2 x Containment Priests
2 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Vendilion Clique
2 x Monastery Mentor
1 x Blue Elemental Blast
Thoughts on Scroll Rack? Enables Predict, Entreat, Terminus, Counterbalance, etc.
Really really really really reallllly bad. Dies to decay, can't draw cards off of it, since miracles don't trigger with it's ability, and interactable when the rest of the deck isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
Nicely done!Quote:
Originally Posted by KZhang
Nice to see Mzfroste is back on the deck, and it's continuing to put up results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
I'm pretty picky about my printings. It actually makes me unreasonably upset that one of my paper Cliques is MM1 versus two that are MOR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Continuing on the subject of loam and fire, I am hesitant to play B2B and am not yet sold on splashing red. Spell Queller is another card that could warrant testing, though admittedly it is also possibly too narrow. In practice, since loam begets loam, the timing where queller could be effective is likely pretty limited.
We got Mzfroste back!Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
How does everyone feel about Rest in Peace? We are definitely a Snapcaster deck and RIP works against that but this card is pretty good against Pfire and Loam as well, forcing the various flavors of loam decks to dig for removal. The nice thing about this card over Surgical is that they can't meme their way around it with cycling or holding up a Grove. It makes Deathrite into Norwood Ranger and Unexpectedly Absent followed by RIP bricks opposing Gurmags pretty good.
The cost of playing RIP is too high, and it is too slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
We need to contact the Miracles players who said they were going to quit after the ban and show them the new list. The great players in here have demonstrated its viability even if it's not the best deck in the format.
I think it could be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
I know I was going to quit but these lists showed up before I could get my cards sold for a reasonable price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
I definitely agree. I can't believe I wasted the money on both paper and online Sneak and Show. I should have had more faith in you guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Against Lands, RiP is definitely good enough. It is also a better card against Storm, as it shuts off PiF kill, forcing Storm player to find answer or alternative line via Dark petition etc, which means your wizard beats might get there. However, rip is too slow for whatever colors reanimators.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
It may be compelling to test the BR Reanimator matchup with 2x RIP in place of the 2x Surgical. You have Forces, Swords, Terminus, and UA followed by RIP out of the board. I think the RIP could add a lot to the other matchups.
Re: Legends Package
There's a lot of combo in my meta, and I found that Clique and Venser MD were really helpful in winning a higher percentage of my Game 1's, which obviously lead to a better overall win rate. So I was wondering if it would be possible to still keep them, since they've proven very useful in the past in my specific meta.
I did a little playtesting, and I do think it's reasonable to conclude that Venser might be too slow in the main without Counter-Top to protect me, especially early on. I'm not 100% set on the idea either way, I just wanted to explore it. Swampfoot, thanks for your notes, they were helpful, especially the part about the 2nd Karakas. I was wondering if 20 lands would be enough because I always ran 21 lands previously, and the land I cut to get down to 20 was the 2nd Karakas. It's good to know Clique and Venser can still work with 20 lands.
I also got a chance to play some games against a variety of decks (Eldrazi, BUG Delver, and UW Stoneblade) the other day with a 'stock' list and I really liked how the deck handled, so it may be that Venser isn't as useful in this incarnation as it was to me when Top was still around. The Portent/Ponder/Brainstorm/Predict/Jace lets you see a TON of your deck (I couldn't believe how full my graveyard was each game) and Unexpectedly Absent synergizes very well with the deck, so UA might be a better 'catch all' option than Venser in this particular shell.
Re: Counterbalance
jdmdave, I have to ask, how are you making Counterbalance work for you? I tried it out, and even against Burn or UR Delver I had a hard time getting it to work consistently for me. I freely admit it could be because I'm pretty new to Miracles, especially compared to a lot of you. However I felt the tempo loss of dropping CB in the first place and having to flip blind on a semi-regular basis was very hit or miss. My opponents also didn't seem to have much trouble playing around it, since they could just throw out a test spell, see if CB was set to that number, and if yes, hold off until the next turn, if no, they would start casting spells. They could afford to out wait me because we don't have the ability to permanently float what we want and change it at instant speed on a consistent basis. Bottom line it was nice to catch opponents once in a while, but it felt very inconsistent to me. Is there something specific you are doing to make it work for you?
I was super aggressive using my cantrips with counterbalance. Think a S&S player setting up his Sneak or Show, but in this case I'm just trying to setup the top of my library.
So far I'd have to say I'm still a big fan of Venser, but no longer running a second in the SB. He is still great with Karakas against the mirror and allowed me to completely turn a game around against an opponent with Jace on board. He lead the way in a complete blowout against Lands and in my Sultai Delver matchup pulled the ole bounce Lili in response to her discard trigger with no cards in opponent's hand. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterRat1
I think Unexpectedly Absent does a decent enough Vensor impression, but at the same time more synergistic with the rest of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampfoot48
The Vensor - Lili trick is definitely one of the most satisfying play the Legends build enabled.