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It's starting to look like the Goblin thread is going the same way as the Elf thread. That being that we have a core we all agree on, but disagree on the little things.
Makes the deck more interesting this way if I may say so. Different voices, different choices, better end for all.
Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.
Because he made top 4 with a list that has brought him win since http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...&p_last=Davis? I don't think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmerl
That said, awesome to see him play. Saw 0 mistakes. Only think the hand against elves Game 3 was bad. Lackey surely would not connect, and he had zero follow up (casting Vial and Matron really doesn't count), so I guess going down to 6 to find removal would be better than keeping that hand.
Congratz to Jim anyway. Way to represent goblins!
Scourger a weird toolbox card. One of the best Gobo players I've ever known likes to run him in multiples, because he's so good on T2, because late game he kills germ tokens, and because he's your only MD answer to a cheaty-face Emrakul in G1. Other players just can't stand him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard
One thing that jumps out about Davis' list is that he has zero dedicated Show and Tell hate, because he's kept it as generic as possible. I can honestly see the value in just crossing your fingers and accepting that you aren't going to distort your list to account for a single card--the REB/Thalia plan has an outside chance against the S&T decks, after all--especially since he's got all the best "general purpose" cards you can have for the SB. But it's not an approach I can bring myself to take at my level of skill, so I gravitate to the blowout cards like Angel of Despair.
It's an interesting point of debate among Gobo players, but I'm in the minority who likes T1 Lackey over an AEther Vial just about any time I'm on the play. Vial does get a lot worse over time, and you want it ticking up ASAP, but Lackey also gets infinitely worse after T1, sometimes becoming slightly better in the late game, so I like to go ahead and force an answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Goblin Lackey does get much worse but it also makes it so your opponent will leave a blocker behind. They have to respect Goblin Lackey even if you have no gas in hand, because they don't know about your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by EluThingol
I'd like to propose a counter point that may resolve your question.
Assumption: Opening hand is keep able with both a Goblin Lackey and an Aether Vial. You are playing against an unknown opponent.
What percentage of the field is more affected by a Turn 1 Goblin Lackey versus Aether Vial? In this case how good is Aether Vial versus the other categories.
What percentage of the field is more affected by a Turn 1 Aether Vial versus Goblin Lackey? In this case how good is Goblin Lackey versus the other categories.
I might be oversimplifying it but I would argue Goblin Lackey is at his best versus Combo and Control. I would argue Aether Vial is at its best versus Control and Aggro sans Hyper Aggression.
Combo being decks that are "Unfair." Try to win on Turn 1 - 4 via a set of effects that mostly does not care about your cards.
Control being decks that could theoretically play the card Counterspell, or mainboard board wipes such as Pernicious Deed or just playing Stax - drawing the game out to a war of attrition usually with very few creatures.
Aggro being of three breeds.
One of which is Hyper Aggression, a deck that tries to run at you from turn 1 and kill you consistently on turn 3 or 4 via combat). Decks like Affinity and Infect. These may get treated like a combo deck because of their speed.
Tempo decks are decks that have faster deployment than its foe. This deck may not have more cards than you but theirs are out sooner and usually require incredibly tight play to manage correctly. Decks like this now include Delver of Secrets. I'm sure there are other reasons, but its hard to argue with the flying Wild Nacatl.
And Midrange decks such that usually use relatively large sized creatures to control the board and eventually win. These decks tend to do fairly well in a war of attrition. Cards usually included in these decks are Tarmogoyf, Aether Vial, Dark Confidant.
(I suppose there are Ramp strategies as well, but they historically have not done well in legacy with the exception of say, maybe, MUD.)
I'd be writing more in depth but I must head to work. I'll be back in about 12 hours.
Edit: I have returned from work.
Using this site (August 2013 Update) for my information our DTB today are RUG Delver, Deathblade, Shardless BUG, Sneak Attack, Death and Taxes, Jund, Elves, ANT, U/W Miracles (Rest in Pieces).
Control: DeathBLade, U/W Miracles (w/ Combo Kill)
Combo: Sneak Attack, Elves, ANT
Tempo: RUG Delver
Midrange: Shardless BUG, Jund, Death and Taxes
The assumed metagame will have a large number of these decks.
5 Decks Goblin Lackey is good as a turn 1 play over Aether Vial:
Combo: Sneak Attack, Elves, ANT
Control: DeathBLade, U/W Miracles (w/ Combo Kill)
6 Decks Aether Vial is good as a turn 1 play over Goblin Lackey:
Control: DeathBLade, U/W Miracles (w/ Combo Kill)
Tempo: RUG Delver
Midrange: Shardless BUG, Jund, Death and Taxes
In our current "meta" Aether Vial is a better turn 1 play as it is the better turn 1 player versus more decks currently than Goblin Lackey
(I stand by Goblin Lackey being better than Aether Vial against Elves, it forces them to use their mana as a blocker and if you have the removal you get some icing for that tasty cake)
On the topic of deck archetypes, unless I fail at life, I did not notice a single midrange deck in the top 8 unless you count Maverick or Deathblade and only a few in the top 20. I wonder how relevant the lack of BGX decks was to the success of Davis...with few Abrupt Decays running around, Vial probably got a lot better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard
I'd call Maverick Midrange.Quote:
Originally Posted by Potdindy
Swan Song U
Instant
Counter target enchantment, instant or sorcery spell. Its controller puts a 2/2 blue Bird creature token with flying onto the battlefield.
Would be a nice replacement for spell Pierce in Ru Goblins. Kinda Catch-All (Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Infernal
Tutor, Moat, Humility,...)
Interesting...tho is it not just a narrower version of Spell Pierce that can hard counter. I was actually thinking about the U splash, and I noticed a difference between it and perhaps G and W. You may disagree, but with blue spells, we have to fetch for a Volcanic Island pretty early in the game if we want to cast counters reliably. This opens our mana base to an early wasteland that can cut us permanently of a color without us ever using the U.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asgar
On the other hand, lets say a deck playing white for Thalia only needs the land for her when you go to cast Thalia. By this, You drop Cavern or Plateau and play Thalia...after that, if the land gets wasted, its not such a bad thing. Idk if that makes sense, kinda hard to communicate it, but it just seems that a reactive color splash like U weakens our mana base a lot. If no one has any idea what the heck I'm talking about, well then...idk.
Looking at more of the spoilers, what about Ashen Rider as a replacement for Angel of Despair. Its about the same cost and size, but when it enters the field AND dies, it can exile permanent...seems like a way to survive if a Show n Tell player manages to land a second bomb such as Emrakul. Its annihilator could let us sac Rider, exiling Emmy.
The Archon is strictly better, than Angel, because we dont have a way to cast either of those anyway.
We wouldn't Board it in against wasteland-Decks usually i think.
Though, without oblivion Rings in Board Mayr you Need ist to Fight Plaque (and hymn).
Hey, is there a reason why the coverage vids of this last Tourney with Davis haven't been put up on SCG? I know it takes a few days, but I thought they should've been up by now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Potdindy
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/458303326
I've been testing this version:
Deck: Goblins http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif
//Lands
10 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
//Artifacts
4 Ęther Vial
//Instants
2 Tarfire
//Creatures
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
//Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Boartusk Liege
http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Display deck statistics
Listing of results:
- Aggro
vs. RWg Goblins: 2-1
vs. Affinity: 2-1/0-2/1-2/1-2/0-2
vs. Maverick: 2-1/2-1/2-1/2-0
vs. Dark Maverick: 2-0/2-0/1-2
vs. Bant: 2-1
vs. UR Burn: 2-0/2-1/2-0
vs. Burn: 1-2
vs. Naya Zoo: 1-2
vs. Aggro Loam: 0-2
vs. Boros: 2-0
vs. Merfolks: 2-1/2-0/2-1
vs. Jund: 2-1/0-2
vs. RUG Delver: 2-0/2-1/2-1/2-0/2-1/2-0
vs. Punishing Threshold: 0-2
vs. Dark Threshold: 2-0
vs. Nic Fit: 1-2
vs. Esper Stoneblade: 2-0
vs. DeathBlade: 2-1
vs. Faestalker: 2-0/2-1/2-0
vs. Deadguy Ale: 2-1
vs. Patriot: 1-2
vs. Team America: 2-0/2-1/2-0
- Control
vs. Punishing Lands: 2-1
vs. MUD: 1-2
vs. Blade Control: 2-1
vs. Miracle Control: 0-2
vs. Tezzeret Control: 2-1
vs. Pox: 2-1/0-2
vs. Loam Pox: 2-1
vs. MBC: 2-1
vs. Death and Taxes: 2-0/2-0/2-1/2-1
vs. BUG Control: 2-0
- Combo
vs. TNT: 2-1/2-1/1-2
vs. TES: 2-1/1-2/1-2
vs. DDFT: 2-0
vs. Spiral Tide: 1-2
vs. All Spells: 2-0/0-2
vs. Dark Depths: 0-2
vs. Omnitell: 0-2/1-2/0-2
vs. Show and Tell: 1-2
vs. Sneak and Show: 2-0
vs. Sneak Attack (MonoR): 2-1
vs. Reanimator: 0-2/1-2
vs. Elfball: 2-0
vs. Elves: 2-1
vs. Belcher: 1-2/0-2/0-2
vs. Zombardment: 2-1
vs. Imperial Painter: 2-0/2-1/2-0/2-1/2-1/2-0
vs. Nic Scapeshift: 1-2/2-1
Listing of updates:
- First update (09-20-2013)
vs. RUG Delver: 2-0/2-1
- Second update (09-27-2013)
vs. Merfolks: 2-0/2-1
vs. Pox: 2-1
- Third update (10-04-2013)
vs. MBC: 2-1
vs. Belcher: 1-2
vs. Zombardment: 2-1
vs. Imperial Painter: 2-0/2-1
vs. Pox: 0-2/2-0
vs. Death and Taxes: 2-1
vs. Jund: 0-2
- Fourth update (10-17-2013)
vs. Dark Maverick: 2-0
vs. Burn: 1-2
vs. Pox: 2-0
vs. Sneak and Show: 2-0
- Fifth update (11-17-2013)
vs. Threshold UGr: 2-1
vs. Punishing Threshold: 0-2
vs. Punishing Lands: 2-1
vs. Reanimator: 1-2
vs. Sneak Attack (MonoR): 2-1
vs. Affinity: 0-2/1-2/1-2/0-2
vs. Loam Pox: 2-1
vs. Patriot: 1-2
vs. Death and Taxes: 2-1
vs. Burning ANT: 1-2
vs. Imperial Painters: 2-0
- Sixth update (1-30-2014)
Few changes in my sideboard.
vs. Imperial Painter: 2-1/2-1/2-0
vs. BUG Control: 2-0
vs. Threshold UGr: 2-0/2-1/2-0
vs. Bant: 2-1
vs. GWB Maverick: 2-0
vs. Nic Scapeshift: 1-2/2-1
vs. Belcher: 0-2/0-2
vs. Team America: 2-0
- Seventh update (07-02-2014)
vs. Maverick 2-1/2-0
vs. Team America: 2-1/2-0
vs. UR Burn: 2-0
vs. OmniTell: 0-2
vs. Dark Maverick: 1-2
Regards.
You did a good job! Thank you for sharing.Quote:
Originally Posted by cronos
Could you add your decklist + SB to the posting above? And: are you willing to update this list when you get more results? I'm particularily interested in your decklists performance vs. the DtBs.
It's no trouble at all!Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
I've just edited my post to include my decklist + SB, and I'll play more times against tier decks so as to get more information. Regards.
How often do you find the lack of a main deck shatter goblin relevant. Davis's recent list had 2 just like yours, but his your's are sideboarded. Did you regularly miss it game 1, or was it not necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by cronos
Almost never. Against most of tier decks as Threshold UGr, Jund, Team America, Miracle, etc. I don't need a shatter goblin. Only when someone plays with decks like Stoneblade or Maverick, I miss him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Potdindy
However, the deck has many ways to make good the loss of shatter goblin. We can deal 2 damage to Stoneforge Mystic with Tarfire (if our opponent searched for Batterskull), to block an attacking creature equipped with Umezawa's Jitte / Batterskull and, after declare blockers step, sacrifice blocking creature with Skirk Prospector, etc.
Regards.
I recommend playing 3C when considering a blue splash. Also you only fetch an early Volcanic against combo which doesnt run Wasteland. Against control, you just fetch, when you need it and surprise the opp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Potdindy
Swans looks pretty interesting, though. But im not sure I want to give combo an early blocker. Also doenst counter walkers or artifacts (Top, Jitte)
Hey fellow Warchiefs,
here's a short report on my results from today's tourney as well as some thoughts on Mirror Entity.
List
//MANA (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls
5 Mountain
2 Plateau
5 Fetchlands
//CORE (20)
4 Vial
4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
//OTHERS (18)
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Mogg War Marshal
3 Piledriver
3 Thalia
1 Stingscourger
1 Chieftain
1 Sharpshooter
1 Mirror Entity
//SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Chalice
4 Rest in Peace
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Wear//Tear
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
R1: Canadian Threshold, classic (1-2)
R2: BRWG-Best-Of (0-2)
R3: Homebrew Control (2-0)
R4: 12-Posts (2-1)
R5: bUrg Threshold (1-2)
Thoughts:
Mirror Entity was, well, useful at its best, but by no means overwhelming. I found it too bad against Threshold since a single Stifle could shut down it's ability and make me use 3 mana for nothing (which is not something you want to be doing against this kind of deck). I can't judge wether it has more value than a simple Chieftain against any other given deck, however I was hesitant to drop Mentity whenever I drew it due to mana issues. I guess the card is best when it catches your opponent by surprise (like when he is tapped out and you flash it into play at EOT via Aether Vial - however, this doesn't happen all too often unless you are playing vs. some Hobbits in a magic paralell universe. My conclusion is threrefore quite straightforward: bad card.
Playing without SGC and Krenko wasn't an issue at all. MVPs were Ringleader and Piledriver (and, of course, MWM). I will keep playing with 0 copies of either fatty when I play a MWM-version next time.
Thalia in the MD was not nearly as good as I hoped she would be. Basically the whole point of running her in the MD was to improve my storm-combo MU as well as gaining some %s vs. Thresholds. However, I found myself boarding Thalia OUT against both threshold decks since I found Rest in Peace + Pyrokinesis to be more valuable. If I were to run a similar list again I would definitely cut all Thalias from the MD (not knowing if I'd play her at all) for +1 Piledriver, +1 Skirk Prospector and +1 Tuktuk Scraper or Goblin Chieftain.
Wear//Tear is a really good inclusion for the deck given it's flexibility and low manacosts. I'm almost sure that 2 is the correct number, however cutting Tuktuk Scrapper in favor of W//T is an valid option too.
Playing with only 2 Caverns wasn't a problem at all...the opposite is true, as I found it comfortable to drop one basicland after another against Threshold. I'm not yet sold if it is BETTER to run less than 4 Cavern of Souls, however I can tell for sure that I would do so again without any regret. 4 Lackey, 4 Vials and 2 Caverns are enough to get your dudes past countermagic.
I hoped my short summary was helpful. Questions are, as always, appreciated.
-GL
//EDIT:
Steamflogger participated in the very same tourney as I did with a WInistigator approach. He did better than me with a solid 3-2. I really liked his decklist (although I didn't get to see his SB), and I hope he will write a word or two about his impressions on the deck. The guy is sticking to his WInstigator list since last year when I first met him. Seems like he's found "his" list.
GoboLord, thanks for your list and the writeup.
If possible, would you be in the mood to write up a more detailed account of your first two matches? (what you faced after that doesn't matter as much since your tournament was largely over once you started 0-2).