Miracle Control

Hey guys! 'Grats to everyone that found success at the GP.

In a totally last minute decision (deciding on the Tuesday to fly out on Thursday), I also brought Miracles to the GP:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains

3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
1 Counterspell

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels

1 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives

SB:
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Rest in Peace
1 Wear // Tear
2 Pyroclasm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Baneslayer Angel

I was sure I wanted some amount of "cheats" maindeck, but couldn't bring myself to rock 2 blasts, so I hedged with a maindeck EE, figuring it was still good vs UR Delver (upside of being able to remove Vortex G1), as well as whatever random stuff I'd encounter. In practise, however, it wasn't that great against UR (rarely getting a 2 for 1 unless they go all in on Swiftspears), and I wouldn't play more than 1 in the 75 going forward; it's also very mana intensive and risks splash damage, of course. In the end I figured both EE and Pyroclasm had enough use against a big part of the field that I decided for 2 copies each.

3 Clique was probably too much, and I would definitely switch one of those for a 2nd Blue blast; most of URs threats are R, and having hard answers to Swiftspear is nice. Pyroclasm was good but unreliable vs the Monk since they can just cast something to boost it above 2 toughness.

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I ended up going 4-1-2 to miss Day 2, starting off 3-0 vs Budget Doomsday, BUG Control, and a super close 2-1 vs UR delver. Then the Rain of Salt started...

Round 4 I'm paired against Burn and he easily takes G1; G2 I pull out of my ass with Baneslayer Angel and CBTop, and with the clock ticking down G3 I again stick CBTop and land Baneslayer, and he's basically dead until he lands Ensnaring Bridge... I tell him I have outs (as I'm conscious of the clock) and then after digging like mad with multiple brainstorms and top activations, find EE with only 4 mana open on turn 3 of extra turns... get him to 2 on turn 5 and mention that he's dead on board but he doesn't concede as draws are still live. Fair enough, but still...

and so Round 5. UR Delver. He scoops G1 to a quick CBTop lock, manages to grind out G2, and G3, once again, I have him dead on board with a Baneslayer Angel and CBTop in play, one turn shy of the killing blow. Again. And ofc after I wonder out loud if there's any chance he'd be conceding, he says No. Wowza. So Salt.

Draws being basically as bad as losses here, I'm pretty uptight going into round 6 as I have to 4-0 from here on out (despite the talk at the X-0-2 tables of 6-0-3 still making it...)

R6 I crush a BW Deadguy-ish build, after which he tells me I need to not be such a dick :P (I was playing very fast and asked him once to speed up his play a little bit)

... and then R7, I guess my brain just decided it had had enough, I ship a perfectly keepable 7 (one U fetch 2x Brainstorm 2x STP 1x Terminus) and keep a really marginal 5 land hand and then ofc draw nothing but land vs D&T. G2 I keep an equally misearble hand and I'm just straight out of it despite a big misplay on his part that kept me alive for 3 or so extra turns.

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All in all, the shell is amazing, has game against everything, despite the UR match being very close indeed. While I did end up in the draw bracket I honestly believe I played quickly (that burn player was Glacial), although I do wish there was just a little less of a grind to every MU. Baneslayer out of the board was easily my MVP and although I didn't get to test it vs the mirror I believe its Big Game in the control MUs (BUG was cold to it).

Oh, and to add fuel to the Ponder fire that is raging on here, I cut the 4th Ponder for a 22nd land a while ago and have been very happy with it. I never want to be mana-screwed with the deck, so it seems like a fine decision, although I think that either way you cut it its marginal and probably impossible to really figure out just how much of a difference it makes. Maybe I'm just a wuss.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

Ponder doesn't really fit well into any of these categories. Neither does Karakas and basic Mountain. I think you'll find a higher rate of success without these cards in your Main Deck. Try my list out and see what you think! I've had pretty good success with it so far.

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You say you've had a bunch of success with your list, but I would have to question what kind of success? By that I mean what kind of tournaments have you played in? Are they just locals with small amount of swiss or high level tournaments? I don't mean to be a full on partisan of Ein's as I don't always agree with him. But I think what he has done with Top 8'ing GP NJ is just given more and more credence to that his 4 Ponder build is consistent enough for good players to perform well in large tournaments. His list doing well at multiple tournaments is obviously not absolute proof that it is the best build of Miracles (I will not go there because that in itself is a whole other discussion). However, consider how the longer a tournament is the more chances you have to get screwed by variance of all kinds. Why not mitigate more against such variance by playing the second best cantrip in legacy? People argue that with adding four Ponder you start getting into the "cantrip-into-cantrips" problem, but I find this assertion false as I haven't had that be a major problem in my games and I'm sure other pilots of Ein's list would agree with me. Maybe if we started to add another card selection spell after 4 Ponder this would become a problem. Until then I don't see reason not to play his list aside from differences in playstyle and card choices, which you are more than entitled to.

NOTE: Sorry if this post comes out a little rough. Know that I don't mean to be hostile in anyway.

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

You say you've had a bunch of success with your list, but I would have to question what kind of success? By that I mean what kind of tournaments have you played in? Are they just locals with small amount of swiss or high level tournaments? I don't mean to be a full on partisan of Ein's as I don't always agree with him. But I think what he has done with Top 8'ing GP NJ is just given more and more credence to that his 4 Ponder build is consistent enough for good players to perform well in large tournaments. His list doing well at multiple tournaments is obviously not absolute proof that it is the best build of Miracles (I will not go there because that in itself is a whole other discussion). However, consider how the longer a tournament is the more chances you have to get screwed by variance of all kinds. Why not mitigate more against such variance by playing the second best cantrip in legacy? People argue that with adding four Ponder you start getting into the "cantrip-into-cantrips" problem, but I find this assertion false as I haven't had that be a major problem in my games and I'm sure other pilots of Ein's list would agree with me. Maybe if we started to add another card selection spell after 4 Ponder this would become a problem. Until then I don't see reason not to play his list aside from differences in playstyle and card choices, which you are more than entitled to.

NOTE: Sorry if this post comes out a little rough. Know that I don't mean to be hostile in anyway.

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The main issue i have with the four ponder build comes down to 2 things. what you have to cut for it to find room, which in this case is lands and business spells. the other issue i have with it is that it is not something i wanna see on to the top of my deck pretty much ever. reason being is dtop, brainstorm, and jace find me what i need just fine. ponder can do it too but i don't wanna be digging for answers and seeing useless ponders on top of my library when dtop + fetchland is basically infinite ponder.

Joe Lossett plays a ton of miracles and he cuts Swords to Plowshares to fit in Red blasts. Even though he has had much success with his build, I think this is the dumbest idea to cut removal spells against a Delver heavy format. Part of my success vs. Delver decks is having a very high number of 1 mana kill your guy spells. So just because someone did well with Ponder in their list isn't enough to convince me that running 4 ponder is necessary or correct. Grats he did well at the GP though. I'd rather just find more business spells floating on top of my library rather than finding ponders that generally become worthless as the game progresses. Especially if I have Counterbalance online.

If you are cutting business spells to add ponders then you need those ponders to find your business spells so why not just play more business spells and find those on top of your library due to mathematical statistics? Besides so much of what makes Miracles win is how and when you play your cards. So I would want more copies of the cards I'm trying to cast anyway rather than play less copies and have to play more cards to dig for those spells. All ponder does exceptionally well is allow you to keep looser hands and hands with a low land account expecting to be able to ponder out of it. Well, if that's the case, you probably shouldn't be keeping these hands anyway. Ponder is basically a crutch that is not needed if you know how and when to play your spells effectively and know what hands you can or cannot keep in any given matchup. That is why I don't play ponder. It is an unnecessary card and is a handicap to most lesser experienced players.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

The main issue i have with the four ponder build comes down to 2 things. what you have to cut for it to find room, which in this case is lands and business spells.

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You still have 21 lands in your deck and plenty of business spells, with ponders you find more of them and you find them at the right time. Early game you take removal and lands, mid-late game you setup terminuses and win cons. You will see the same amount of business spells or maybe even more often with 4 ponder build. This is not rocket science.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

the other issue i have with it is that it is not something i wanna see on to the top of my deck pretty much ever. reason being is dtop, brainstorm, and jace find me what i need just fine. ponder can do it too but i don't wanna be digging for answers and seeing useless ponders on top of my library when dtop + fetchland is basically infinite ponder.

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You just cast the ponder and see more cards or shuffle, man it feels like you havent ever even played with ponders.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

I'd rather just find more business spells floating on top of my library rather than finding ponders that generally become worthless as the game progresses. Especially if I have Counterbalance online.

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Yes, shuffle effects are bad in miracles... Especially in the late game :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by dsck

You still have 21 lands in your deck and plenty of business spells, with ponders you find more of them and you find them at the right time. Early game you take removal and lands, mid-late game you setup terminuses and win cons. You will see the same amount of business spells or maybe even more often with 4 ponder build. This is not rocket science.



You just cast the ponder and see more cards or shuffle, man it feels like you havent ever even played with ponders.



Yes, shuffle effects are bad in miracles... Especially in the late game :rolleyes:

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I have said all I'm going to say about it. I have an opinon regarding the inclusion of ponder in miracles. I have expressed that opinion and the reasoning behind those opinions. There are people who believe ponder should be included and there are people who don't. I don't. There's nothing more to say. Otherwise it just becomes useless arguing and that doesn't help anyone.

I would like to reopen the discussion of containment priest vs traditional gy hate. So far this hasn't been discussed yet.

Does containment priest replace the need for gy hate in the matchups where traditional GY hate is warranted ie rest in peace, or relic of progenitus?

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Originally Posted by drocker23

I have said all I'm going to say about it. I have an opinon regarding the inclusion of ponder in miracles. I have expressed that opinion and the reasoning behind those opinions. There are people who believe pobeer should be included and there are people who don't. I don't. There's nothing more to say. Otherwise it just becomes useless arguing and that doesn't help anyone.

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:laugh:

I explained in depth why Ponder is good, you abandon conversation.



Ein, are you publishing report on some site? SCG? Also gratz!

I'm actually still on 2 RIP instead of 2 CPriest because besides against Sneaky Show(to have more outs vs Boseju) I feel I dont really want it. Elves is already very good. Versus reanimator they function the same and thats also a good MU.
I guess it just comes down to me not feeling very comfortable against Ichorid and some loam/lands decks without RIP.

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Originally Posted by rancOr_

I'm actually still on 2 RIP instead of 2 CPriest because besides against Sneaky Show(to have more outs vs Boseju) I feel I dont really want it. Elves is already very good. Versus reanimator they function the same and thats also a good MU.
I guess it just comes down to me not feeling very comfortable against Ichorid and some loam/lands decks without RIP.

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I feel pretty close to the same. I'm aware that Containment Priest is a good card vs. certain matchups, but it's still up in the air as to whether or not I actually want to make room for it in my sideboard.

Also with you playing Rest In Peace, are you not afraid of having someone Helm you for playing RIP? I am, that's why I'm on Relic of Progenitus. That and Relic is much better when you're playing with Snapcaster.

Here is my current sideboard:

1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear // Tear

So what gets the boot for Containment Priest?

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Originally Posted by rancOr_

I'm actually still on 2 RIP instead of 2 CPriest because besides against Sneaky Show(to have more outs vs Boseju) I feel I dont really want it. Elves is already very good. Versus reanimator they function the same and thats also a good MU.
I guess it just comes down to me not feeling very comfortable against Ichorid and some loam/lands decks without RIP.

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I've actually liked Containment Prieset, because of the added utility. Furthermore, it gives us a great out to a random Boseiju out of Show and Tell. It stops reanimation effects, and what's more, exile creatures from your opponent's yard if timed right. Furthermore, it strengthens our elves matchup, as it serves as both a beater and helps stint their early game as they can no longer fetch dryad arbour. Also, against dredge I find it is fine because it stops them from bringing dudes into play, which thus stops bridge triggers, and if they remove it, it kills their bridges.

Hello all. Long-time lurker. Wanted to congratulate Philipp on his excellent finish at GPNJ. The list looks great, and I look forward to playing it locally.

I really don't understand the reaction from most of the people in this thread to the results of the GP, and it's no wonder that Philipp doesn't post on here very often anymore. 4-Ponder list top 4's and there's still doubt over whether it's better than the Legendary build (or whatever pile of cute/less effective things people dream up)? Half the congratulations here have been followed by saying that his list is wrong. Mind boggling...


Anyway, here's a brief summary of my main event, I scrubbed hard at 4-4-1 with the following pile:

1 Snapcaster Mage

1 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misdirection
3 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Dig Through Time
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Council's Judgement

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Counterbalance

4 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains

Sideboard:
1 Wear // Tear
2 Pyroclasm
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Hydroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Containment Priest
1 Pyroblast

Results (notes are brief):
Round 1: 0-2 Elves - Nothing worth talking about, I did nothing of note either game, it was pathetic.
Round 2: 1-1-1 Death and Taxes - Longish games are long
Round 3: 2-0 Death and Taxes - Containment Priest did work in game 2
Round 4: 0-2 Deathblade
Round 5: 1-2 BUG Delver - Resolved Sylvan Library in Game 3 put me too far behind
Round 6: 2-1 Burn - Misdirection hilarity ensued
Round 7: 2-0 No-show opponent
Round 8: 2-0 Elves - Redemption for round 1
Round 9: 0-2 12-Post - Yep

I regret not replacing the 2nd pyroclasm with an Engineered Explosives (I did for the Sunday Super Series and it was great), as the ability to just answer most random permanents is very strong. The Dig Through Time was interesting, but I don't think it's necessary when there's already so much card selection in the deck. Misdirection should be a 4th Force, misdirecting a Fireblast isn't enough reason to keep it :).

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Originally Posted by ihasfrozen

I regret not replacing the 2nd pyroclasm with an Engineered Explosives (I did for the Sunday Super Series and it was great), as the ability to just answer most random permanents is very strong. The Dig Through Time was interesting, but I don't think it's necessary when there's already so much card selection in the deck. Misdirection should be a 4th Force, misdirecting a Fireblast isn't enough reason to keep it :).

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Pyroclasm is very strong and I like it a lot. I've been wondering about Engineered Explosives. There seems to be a rise in Null Rod being played lately. I'm considering whether or not to replace EE with Supreme Verdict.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

Pyroclasm is very strong and I like it a lot. I've been wondering about Engineered Explosives. There seems to be a rise in Null Rod being played lately. I'm considering whether or not to replace EE with Supreme Verdict.

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I thought that pyroclasm would be better for the Delver decks (then only played it once), but it's hard to bring in 2 'clasm against D+T (due to Wastes/Ports/Thalia). D+T is also part of why I don't like Verdict very much at the moment. EE is also still good against Delver.

I think between Council's Judgement and Wear // Tear we have enough ways to deal with Null Rod (though I haven't had that played against me too often, usually BUG Delver/Elves from what I remember).

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Originally Posted by dsck

I really don't understand the reaction from most of the people in this thread to the results of the GP, and it's no wonder that Philipp doesn't post on here very often anymore. 4-Ponder list top 4's and there's still doubt over whether it's better than the Legendary build (or whatever pile of cute/less effective things people dream up)? Half the congratulations here have been followed by saying that his list is wrong. Mind boggling...

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Chapin went over the top 16 archetypes for GP NJ in his articles on SCG today. When he got to Miracles, this is all he said:

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Some people like to argue that personal style is an illusion and that there is just a right way and all the wrong ways. The thing is, we aren't omnipotent. We are going to have areas we play less than perfect in (actually tons). Having a style isn't just about enjoying a certain type of game. It's also about having a greater depth of experience or knowledge in a certain area. If your internal shortcuts tend to lead you towards a certain type of gamestate, cards that are good in that gamestate can be "your style." Likewise, if you thrive in certain types of games, having more experience with them, cards that get you to those gamestates are "your style."

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I'm not sure when people turned Nazi over these Ponders, but come on...Miracles is the best deck and people are smashing with every build imaginable. Is it better in the current Delver metagame than other builds? Probably, but this idea that a list is garbage if it has less than 4 Ponders is a waste of cognition. I swear I've never seen people get so worked up over a card choice in any other forum on this site.

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Originally Posted by dsck

:laugh:

I explained in depth why Ponder is good, you abandon conversation.



Ein, are you publishing report on some site? SCG? Also gratz!

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Let it go, let it go...

You have to stop caring at some point...


Thank you very much everybody! And yes, I(we) will post several reports on different sites. :) Btw, my good friend and travel companion Tomas Vlcek made 11th place with the very same list, just saying.

Greetings

Some of the funniest games I have ever played have been with this deck. All the punts and you can still win lol :P

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Let it go, let it go...

You have to stop caring at some point...


Thank you very much everybody! And yes, I(we) will post several reports on different sites. :) Btw, my good friend and travel companion Tomas Vlcek made 11th place with the very same list, just saying.

Greetings

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You know it was the miracle counterspell that did it Philip. Very clearly best alter in your 75, had nothing to do with the number of ponders or the skill of the pilot ;)

the legend build was better (imo) than the ponder build prior to treasure cruise and swiftspear because of how much game you had vs combo/random decks.
the ponder build was better vs bug delver and still is. i also think the ponder build is stronger vs faster decks since it lets you do things early as opposed to sitting on cliques/vensers and not being able to cast them early on while taking a beating.

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Thank you very much everybody! And yes, I(we) will post several reports on different sites.

Greetings

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Looking forward to it