Miracle Control

Hello guys,
some thoughts on a couple of questions.

Manabase
How can you make the deck work with a manabase of only 20 lands?
I think it's wrong, it's not the old Miracle anymore. Maybe it's just that I have tested extensively only against mana denial decks (Delvers and D&T; I don't play online) but I mulligan and get mana screwed a lot. I started tested a different build with 20 lands (more on this later), upped to 22 after testing, worked very well, saw your lists, went down to 20, bad things started to happen again.

I know there are very few free slots, but I think this deck really needs to make a land drop for the first 4 turns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

I tend to spend the first few turns building up a basics only manabase vs decks with Wasteland

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I get this, but in my experience, things usually don't go this well. Speaking of starting hands, if you mulligan one landers (basic or fetch for island) plus cantrip, you have to to go to six cards 1/3 of the games (just anecdotical, no mathematics behind this).
If you keep and spend ponders and portents (because these are the only cantrips that can find you the lands you need) searching for lands instead of answers, it happens invariably one of the following:

• you stabilize the mana base, but then fail to find a vital terminus;
• you can't even stabilize the mana base, because either the only lands you can find are vulnerable, or you remain color screwed
• you are forced to choose between finding one land when the second and third cards are not relevant nor fetchable away, ensuring you a land drop but then two miss; or shuffling and just hoping to topdeck

Also, portent is obviously not the same as ponder in terms of hitting land drops.

Different build(s)
Just for your information, before seeing your lists with the Predict-UnexpectedlyAbsent package, I tried a couple of different thins.

1. A standstill list with terminus, which worked but of course wasn't really Miracle, with two personal tutors. The plan being: I show you my terminus on top, because of that you don't extend the board; I plowshare your guy your EOT, draw the terminus not casting it, then play standstill. And then when you break it, I can put back terminus on top with brainstorm.
2. A list very similar to the Predict-UA, but with 22 lands and only 6 slots to this removal-cantrip suite, using Hieroglyphic Illumination instead of Predict and Cast Out instead of UA.

The second list worked fine. Reasons behind it:

• you can cycle them early (or in dead matchup in the case of Cast Out) for a very little price;
• they let you enable very easily a combat or EOT terminus;
• Cast Out is more mana expensive (which isn't all that a problem in late and playing 22 lands) but only needs one white;

Finishers
Usually if you get to the late game you're unstoppable, but sometimes you are very low on life and/or very low on cantrips and/or without a Jace and you either need 10 turns to win or are prone to topdeck wars.
Also, I don't like so much Entreat the Angels when you are either forced to do it draw phase (prone to sorcery speed answers) or you have to put additional effort to enabling it their EOT (brainstorm or predict and 1-2 angels less due to mana spent to the cantrip).

So far, I have tested as different finishers: Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and White Sun's Zenith and I was satisfied with both. The first gives you also a defense from ground attackers; the second one is of course inferior to ETA in terms of power (but not in terms of number of bodies) and evasiveness, but does not require any preparation and being reshuffled you can cast it mid-term to stabilize and then again to finish.
Also I haven't tested, but think could be good against non-white opponents, Archangel Avacyn.
Someone proposed Cryptic Serpent but I don't want another finisher prone to Pyroblasts post side.


Splashes
Has anyone considered a splash, apart from Red? For example for Sylvan Library or Mirri's Guide, or different finishers.

Let me ask you one thing - How many MTGO competitive league matches have you done with your build?

Most of us here are at the 30-100+ mark at this point and the current manabase has actually, you know, worked.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

Let me ask you one thing - How many MTGO competitive league matches have you done with your build?

Most of us here are at the 30-100+ mark at this point and the current manabase has actually, you know, worked.

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No need to jump on people like that. If you're going to refute something, back it up with some reasoning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by talpa

Hello guys,
some thoughts on a couple of questions.

Manabase
How can you make the deck work with a manabase of only 20 lands?
I think it's wrong, it's not the old Miracle anymore. Maybe it's just that I have tested extensively only against mana denial decks (Delvers and D&T; I don't play online) but I mulligan and get mana screwed a lot. I started tested a different build with 20 lands (more on this later), upped to 22 after testing, worked very well, saw your lists, went down to 20, bad things started to happen again.

I know there are very few free slots, but I think this deck really needs to make a land drop for the first 4 turns.



I get this, but in my experience, things usually don't go this well. Speaking of starting hands, if you mulligan one landers (basic or fetch for island) plus cantrip, you have to to go to six cards 1/3 of the games (just anecdotical, no mathematics behind this).
If you keep and spend ponders and portents (because these are the only cantrips that can find you the lands you need) searching for lands instead of answers, it happens invariably one of the following:

• you stabilize the mana base, but then fail to find a vital terminus;
• you can't even stabilize the mana base, because either the only lands you can find are vulnerable, or you remain color screwed
• you are forced to choose between finding one land when the second and third cards are not relevant nor fetchable away, ensuring you a land drop but then two miss; or shuffling and just hoping to topdeck

Also, portent is obviously not the same as ponder in terms of hitting land drops.

Different build(s)
Just for your information, before seeing your lists with the Predict-UnexpectedlyAbsent package, I tried a couple of different thins.

1. A standstill list with terminus, which worked but of course wasn't really Miracle, with two personal tutors. The plan being: I show you my terminus on top, because of that you don't extend the board; I plowshare your guy your EOT, draw the terminus not casting it, then play standstill. And then when you break it, I can put back terminus on top with brainstorm.
2. A list very similar to the Predict-UA, but with 22 lands and only 6 slots to this removal-cantrip suite, using Hieroglyphic Illumination instead of Predict and Cast Out instead of UA.

The second list worked fine. Reasons behind it:

• you can cycle them early (or in dead matchup in the case of Cast Out) for a very little price;
• they let you enable very easily a combat or EOT terminus;
• Cast Out is more mana expensive (which isn't all that a problem in late and playing 22 lands) but only needs one white;

Finishers
Usually if you get to the late game you're unstoppable, but sometimes you are very low on life and/or very low on cantrips and/or without a Jace and you either need 10 turns to win or are prone to topdeck wars.
Also, I don't like so much Entreat the Angels when you are either forced to do it draw phase (prone to sorcery speed answers) or you have to put additional effort to enabling it their EOT (brainstorm or predict and 1-2 angels less due to mana spent to the cantrip).

So far, I have tested as different finishers: Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and White Sun's Zenith and I was satisfied with both. The first gives you also a defense from ground attackers; the second one is of course inferior to ETA in terms of power (but not in terms of number of bodies) and evasiveness, but does not require any preparation and being reshuffled you can cast it mid-term to stabilize and then again to finish.
Also I haven't tested, but think could be good against non-white opponents, Archangel Avacyn.
Someone proposed Cryptic Serpent but I don't want another finisher prone to Pyroblasts post side.


Splashes
Has anyone considered a splash, apart from Red? For example for Sylvan Library or Mirri's Guide, or different finishers.

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Hey talpa!

My first lists all had 21 lands actually, and I wasn't sure if that would be enough, your concerns aren't crazy! But after playing the deck a lot I tried trimming down to 20 and it's worked fine.
I've had some lists with four Jaces and Baneslayer Angel in the sideboard, and I played 22 lands. The land count should depend on your list. Personal playstyle could be a factor in this too. I tend to keep one landers with cantrips, maybe it's greedy, but it's been working for me. If you mulligan those that's a different story. Correct sequencing is also a huge part of the deck. I value fetching basics very highly, so even if I have a Swords to Plowshares or UA in my hand and just one fetch land in an opening hand, I'll still get a basic Island vs an unknown opponent. If your hand is all gas, then I see no problem looking for lands with cantrips, that's what makes them so powerful! Maybe try being a bit more greedy :tongue:

I know Claudio Bonnani was playing with Standstill just before SDT was banned, it could be good! It's a very different approach and I haven't thought about it much to be honest. At the moment I'm very happy with the decks CA with Predict, Jace, Terminus and Snapcaster.

As for finishers. I think Gideon is a really powerful card, and I've considered one in the sideboard, but at the end of the day Entreat the Angels and Monastery Mentor has been so powerful I don't see a reason to change. They're both very hard to interact with, Mentor stabilizes the board better than Gideon does and is more aggressive too. EtA is a perfect finisher for this deck, I think people are either playing it too early in the game or using their resources badly if they're struggling to set it up. Apart from some corner cases, you only cast it when you've already won the game and need to actually kill the opponent. Usually I have under 10 cards left in my library. White Sun'z Zenith is also clunky like Entreat, but has a much lower power level.

Splashes. I started trying a black splash actually (you can see it here from 10 days ago https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/647561#paper), but it ended up not being great. I don't like Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library as they're card disadvantage. I know Library isn't always as you can draw extras, but we already use our life total as a resource, I don't want to be paying 4 life vs a lot of the format.

I hope this answered some of your concerns!

Base on the UW List How do you guys SB for Grixis/Bug Delver and Bug Control ? Also If my meta is full of grixis/bug Delver and Bug control would splashing Red be better for me?
Cause blood moon and Reb's would do work.

I'm a big fan of the red splash for blasts+blood moon, specifically for those grindier matchups.

My apologies for being trite

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RankaLee

Base on the UW List How do you guys SB for Grixis/Bug Delver and Bug Control ? Also If my meta is full of grixis/bug Delver and Bug control would splashing Red be better for me?
Cause blood moon and Reb's would do work.

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In my experience (I only play paper mtg), the decks you listed are not 'blue' enough to justify the splash for pyroblast, since you can play flusterstorm if you stay in UW. If mirror and Show and Tell become more popular, I think splashing is a good idea.

Blood moon, even prior to Top's banning, is a pain to play with in a 3-color deck, I always prefer From the Ashes.

Edit:

Regarding to the land count, I think it is not common we don't have enough lands, but challenging to cope with UU and WW spells in early game. For example, having 1 plains and 2 island on board, want to cantrip a fourth land, however, u have counterspell in your hand, we will in a dilemma cantrip or wait for topdecking a land. Playing more land may help, but it is not the good solution as you may flood out in other cases. My testing is trying out some configuration, such as -1 CS + Manaleak and limited UA to 2 copies in main etc.

Im still pretty new to this deck but What comes out against delver decks just FOW? and I have no clue how to board for Bug Control

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RankaLee

Base on the UW List How do you guys SB for Grixis/Bug Delver and Bug Control ? Also If my meta is full of grixis/bug Delver and Bug control would splashing Red be better for me?
Cause blood moon and Reb's would do work.

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VS Grixis I've been going

+3 Flusterstorm
+2 Monastery Mentor

-1 Entreat the Angels
-1 Jace
-1 Clique
-1 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will

VS BUG Delver

On the draw

+2 Flusterstorm (for Hymn)
+2 Monastery Mentor

-2 Force of Will
-1 Counterspell
-1 Terminus

On the play we can play Counterspell on Hymn around Daze so

+2 Monastery Mentor

-2 Force of Will

VS BUG control it's hard to say, the lists are so different. I'd probably just do +2 Mentor -2 FoW like vs BUG Delver.

I don't like Pyroblast vs any of these decks much. It's probably best vs BUG Delver after board since they will have a couple of Jaces. Blood Moon is obviously amazing vs the BUG decks, we can beat them without it imo though. I'm still happy with straight UW.

I feel pyroblast is better vs the more midrangy BUG decks like Leovold/Aluren or in the blue based combo matchups.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

I feel pyroblast is better vs the more midrangy BUG decks like Leovold/Aluren or in the blue based combo matchups.

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It's great vs them of course, Cavern Harpy is a terrifying card. But I'm not sure we need to splash and damage our manabase to deal with these, we already have tools to beat them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RankaLee

Base on the UW List How do you guys SB for Grixis/Bug Delver and Bug Control ? Also If my meta is full of grixis/bug Delver and Bug control would splashing Red be better for me?
Cause blood moon and Reb's would do work.

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Against the Delver lists/BUG, I've been doing:
Out:
4x Force
2x Counterspell (only running 2)
1x Jace
1x Entreat
1x UA (leaving 2 in the main)

In:
3x Blast
1x Moon (have 1 main also)
1x Gideon
2x Fluster
2x Mentor

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jdmdave

pyroblast, pyroblast, pyroblast

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But I'm not sure we need to splash and damage our manabase to deal with these

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Whitefaces, I doubt you have enough matches under the belt to argue with jmdave :laugh:

(I know I'm doing a flame but I think that's the best way to answer to someone who is repeating the same thing with one liners from pages, who apparently can't read "I don't play online" and consider 5-0ing online like a top8 in a big event. Also, since Europe is where both Miracle started and the 4ponder list started, but it took years outside of it to notice how the deck was broken and to accept that builds like the legend ones were far less effective and far more clunky, I am not inclined to take seriously everyone just based on their word, not to mention that paper and online, like american and european, metagames are not the same. Or based on their personal testing, if not supported by reasoning -see also How many games do you need to play to achieve significance? (...) It would take forever to play enough games to have useful results (...) You should play to achieve active understanding rather than passively studying results).

I thought this could be a place for discussing. And someone encouraged proposing different views, so I wanted to suggest the cycling spells and discuss them, for example.

Also, whitefaces, thank you for your kind answers. About the mulliganing part I wasn't clear: I didn't mean that I myself want to mulligan every one lander with an island and a cantrip. I just wanted to report and discuss my experience; with 22 lands everything went good (and I didn't flood much) while I had troubles multiple times with the 20 build. I know perfectly that no sample size could demonstrate anything, let alone a little one. But reasoning also supported this thought, and all my friends agreed that greed (:cool:) is not where we want to be, and that a control deck with 20 lands was greed even in the old Miracle (though it worked most often than not). Maybe it's a matter of playstyle and preferences, but I wonder how (and how much) upping the land count could damage the deck: I suspect it would affect it more on the "there are less slot" side than on the "I flood in late" one.

Just one more question on ETA: but how many times do you play it in your draw step and how many times EOT? (since for terminus for example I tend to do it in my draw phase more often than not).
Also, I agree with you that one of the key to master the deck (and possibly one where I'm lacking experience) is the sequencing, could you expand more on that? any practical suggestions?

I think a discussion on this topic, tough more difficult, could be far more useful and effective than discussing singletons in/out while sideboarding, when we don't even have a true "established" list.
Thanks again

EDIT: also, this

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jsang

Regarding to the land count, I think it is not common we don't have enough lands, but challenging to cope with UU and WW spells in early game. For example, having 1 plains and 2 island on board, want to cantrip a fourth land, however, u have counterspell in your hand, we will in a dilemma cantrip or wait for topdecking a land. Playing more land may help, but it is not the good solution as you may flood out in other cases. My testing is trying out some configuration, such as -1 CS + Manaleak and limited UA to 2 copies in main etc.

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I think it would be nice to have a suggestion on what you'd do in a situation like this one.
Or in the case I described in my previous post: what do you do if you are searching for your second land drop, you ponder, see an island and two blanks, and maybe already have a plowshare and a terminus in hand? Of course I don't expect a general answer valid for all cases, but I'd like to know your line of reasoning and preferences.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

VS BUG Delver

[...]

On the play we can play Counterspell on Hymn around Daze so

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I am not sure I fully comprehended that statement. If you are on the play, they play Hymn on their second turn and you try to counter it with Counterspell that will still run into Daze, won't it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kobal

I am not sure I fully comprehended that statement. If you are on the play, they play Hymn on their second turn and you try to counter it with Counterspell that will still run into Daze, won't it?

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You're right! Brainfart :tongue: I'd probably recommend keeping the same SBing configuration for otp and otd then. I don't have tables or anything written out yet, I sb differently match to match since lots of opponents play differently too. And the deck is still kind of new so I'm learning it myself.

talpa I'll get back to you soon, I agree that some discussion on sequencing would be good.

Hello everyone!
:smile: First time poster, long time stalker. I‘ve been playing miracles (among other decks) for the last 3 years. Paper-only player. First of all, I would like to sincerely thank everyone who contributed on this new topless archetype. Never expected that Miracles would survive through a Top ban. Secondly, I finished on the finals of a local tournament (21 people).

Decklist

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Terminus
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra

SB
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Mana Maze
1 Hydroblast
1 Mountain

Round one: VS Burn, 2-1
First game was hell incarnate. By the 4th round I was so burned that my corpse was recognized from the teeth only. There was nothing I could have done to stop it. 2nd and 3rd games I started with a Leyline on board. Creatures alone were not enough to kill me and my Angels finished the job.
Round two: VS Maverick, 2-1
First game I manage to battle through consecutive Thalias and Nobles, while I do control his top with 2 Portent. A timely Terminus, an UA on his Sylvan Library (the 3 Plains helped here) and a Jace afterwards meant the game was over. Second game I got stupidly choked when tapped out for a Snapcaster+Swords trick. Never found a relevant Fetchland or 2nd Plain to cast UA….. Third game the Monastery Mentor controlled the board with ease.
Round three: VS LED Dredge, 0-2
Game one my opponent manages a t2 kill with Flayer of the Hatebound. Game two I slow his combo by Forcing a Breakthrough and trying to Surgical his only dredger (GGT), but got Street Wraithed instead and died a turn later, stripped by Cabal Therapies and beaten by an Iona on white.
Round four: VS Elves, 2-0
First game, my opponent tried not to overextend the board and tried a sly t3 kill with 3 creatures and Craterhoof. No terminus on top, but 1 STP and a Snapcaster destroy his maths. Multiple predicts after, provide me with lots of choices that resulted in an epic battle between an army of Elves VS an army of Angels. Angels won :smile: . Second game, I manage to put t2 a Mana Maze on the Table and since my opponent never drew Decays (don’t know if he even boarded them), all I had to do was countering the GSZ for Reclamation Sages.
Round five: VS BUG Delver, 2-0
Game one I counter two consecutive Hymns, I UA + Predict a Liliana, while I slowly killed him with Snapcaster beatdown. Game two, I dodge his discards with a t0 Leyline. I immediately Sword his t1 Deathrite and 2 turns later I won the counterwar for the Blood Moon. His 2nd turn Delver was easy to handle afterwards.
Quarter-Finals: VS Omnitell, 2-0
Game one, after I counter his S&T, the game became a grindfest on which I came on top due to predict. I kill him too with Snapcaster beatdown. Game two, he wins the counterwar for the S&T with 2 Pyroblasts. I miss Pyroblast …. It was somewhat funny, him revealing Omniscience and me revealing a Mana Maze. He had no threats in hand and I manage to UA his enchantment while protecting both my hatepiece and (later) Jace from any more Pyroblasts with ease.
Semi-Finals: VS Czech pile, 2-0
What a great matchup! They have so many removals that are absolutely dead against us. First game Leovold got immediately UA+Predict, and I was lucky enough to Terminus my opponents TNN. Jace took the game in time. Second game, I tried to quickly dominate the board with a Mentor and a timely Toxic Deluge from my opponent stopped my plans. But that meant he got tapped out on his turn, thus another Blood Moon victory was at hand.
Finals: VS 4C Loam: -
We split the prize but we played the games nevertheless. I got wrecked in both of them. Chalices on 1 stopped half my deck, GSZ for Teeg stopped my answers to the Chalice (UA), Loam’s card advantage engine is like Predict’s abusive father and Punishing Fire laughs in the face of Jace. Game two I tried to sneak a Blood Moon victory, but a Mox Diamond two turns later ensured the Decay mana. My opponent was experienced enough to play around Surgical+Snapcasters with both open Groves for his PF engine and cycling lands for his Loams. It was probably the first time I really missed the Top+fetch card selection engine.


Conclusion: Everything Mana Maze does, Ethersworn Canonist does better, with the exception of dying to Massacre. Leyline wrecks Burn. It would have probably wrecked Storm too if I had paired with it (EtW is not a terrifying threat since Leyline stops their discards too). I was satisfied with the lone Mountain + BM package. The insta win that BM provides should not be underestimated. I will probably test it with Volcanics too though. That said, I like the 3 Plains too. Makes the mana base more fluent and gives more options. 4 Counterspell was a bit too much. Perhaps a split of 3 Counterspell/1 Spell Pierce is better. I see many people here like the 3UA/2StP split. 2UA was fine for me. I don’t want to push my luck too much with the white mana and I play 3 Plains. Very few number of Abrupt Decays in the new meta.

EDIT: I appologize for the long post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sefir

Hello everyone!
:smile: First time poster, long time stalker. I‘ve been playing miracles (among other decks) for the last 3 years. Paper-only player. First of all, I would like to sincerely thank everyone who contributed on this new topless archetype. Never expected that Miracles would survive through a Top ban. Secondly, I finished on the finals of a local tournament (21 people).

Decklist

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra

SB
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Mana Maze
1 Hydroblast
1 Mountain

Round one: VS Burn, 2-1
First game was hell incarnate. By the 4th round I was so burned that my corpse was recognized from the teeth only. There was nothing I could have done to stop it. 2nd and 3rd games I started with a Leyline on board. Creatures alone were not enough to kill me and my Angels finished the job.
Round two: VS Maverick, 2-1
First game I manage to battle through consecutive Thalias and Nobles, while I do control his top with 2 Portent. A timely Terminus, an UA on his Sylvan Library (the 3 Plains helped here) and a Jace afterwards meant the game was over. Second game I got stupidly choked when tapped out for a Snapcaster+Swords trick. Never found a relevant Fetchland or 2nd Plain to cast UA….. Third game the Monastery Mentor controlled the board with ease.
Round three: VS LED Dredge, 0-2
Game one my opponent manages a t2 kill with Flayer of the Hatebound. Game two I slow his combo by Forcing a Breakthrough and trying to Surgical his only dredger (GGT), but got Street Wraithed instead and died a turn later, stripped by Cabal Therapies and beaten by an Iona on white.
Round four: VS Elves, 2-0
First game, my opponent tried not to overextend the board and tried a sly t3 kill with 3 creatures and Craterhoof. No terminus on top, but 1 STP and a Snapcaster destroy his maths. Multiple predicts after, provide me with lots of choices that resulted in an epic battle between an army of Elves VS an army of Angels. Angels won :smile: . Second game, I manage to put t2 a Mana Maze on the Table and since my opponent never drew Decays (don’t know if he even boarded them), all I had to do was countering the GSZ for Reclamation Sages.
Round five: VS BUG Delver, 2-0
Game one I counter two consecutive Hymns, I UA + Predict a Liliana, while I slowly killed him with Snapcaster beatdown. Game two, I dodge his discards with a t0 Leyline. I immediately Sword his t1 Deathrite and 2 turns later I won the counterwar for the Blood Moon. His 2nd turn Delver was easy to handle afterwards.
Quarter-Finals: VS Omnitell, 2-0
Game one, after I counter his S&T, the game became a grindfest on which I came on top due to predict. I kill him too with Snapcaster beatdown. Game two, he wins the counterwar for the S&T with 2 Pyroblasts. I miss Pyroblast …. It was somewhat funny, him revealing Omniscience and me revealing a Mana Maze. He had no threats in hand and I manage to UA his enchantment while protecting both my hatepiece and (later) Jace from any more Pyroblasts with ease.
Semi-Finals: VS Czech pile, 2-0
What a great matchup! They have so many removals that are absolutely dead against us. First game Leovold got immediately UA+Predict, and I was lucky enough to Terminus my opponents TNN. Jace took the game in time. Second game, I tried to quickly dominate the board with a Mentor and a timely Toxic Deluge from my opponent stopped my plans. But that meant he got tapped out on his turn, thus another Blood Moon victory was at hand.
Finals: VS 4C Loam: -
We split the prize but we played the games nevertheless. I got wrecked in both of them. Chalices on 1 stopped half my deck, GSZ for Teeg stopped my answers to the Chalice (UA), Loam’s card advantage engine is like Predict’s abusive father and Punishing Fire laughs in the face of Jace. Game two I tried to sneak a Blood Moon victory, but a Mox Diamond two turns later ensured the Decay mana. My opponent was experienced enough to play around Surgical+Snapcasters with both open Groves for his PF engine and cycling lands for his Loams. It was probably the first time I really missed the Top+fetch card selection engine.


Conclusion: Everything Mana Maze does, Ethersworn Canonist does better, with the exception of dying to Massacre. Leyline wrecks Burn. It would have probably wrecked Storm too if I had paired with it (EtW is not a terrifying threat since Leyline stops their discards too). I was satisfied with the lone Mountain + BM package. The insta win that BM provides should not be underestimated. I will probably test it with Volcanics too though. That said, I like the 3 Plains too. Makes the mana base more fluent and gives more options. 4 Counterspell was a bit too much. Perhaps a split of 3 Counterspell/1 Spell Pierce is better. I see many people here like the 3UA/2StP split. 2UA was fine for me. I don’t want to push my luck too much with the white mana and I play 3 Plains. Very few number of Abrupt Decays in the new meta.

EDIT: I appologize for the long post.

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Keep the long posts up! I love tournament reports :) Will read over this later!

EDIT: So I'm curious about why you played the basic mountain + blood moon instead of Back to basics? It seems like you're valuing the card really heavily and I don't think the cost associated with the mountain and no other red cards warrants inclusion. It seemed you reached the same conclusion about Mana Maze vs Canonist, which is nice at least.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sefir

Hello everyone!
:smile: First time poster, long time stalker. I‘ve been playing miracles (among other decks) for the last 3 years. Paper-only player. First of all, I would like to sincerely thank everyone who contributed on this new topless archetype. Never expected that Miracles would survive through a Top ban. Secondly, I finished on the finals of a local tournament (21 people).

Decklist

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra

SB
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Mana Maze
1 Hydroblast
1 Mountain

Round one: VS Burn, 2-1
First game was hell incarnate. By the 4th round I was so burned that my corpse was recognized from the teeth only. There was nothing I could have done to stop it. 2nd and 3rd games I started with a Leyline on board. Creatures alone were not enough to kill me and my Angels finished the job.
Round two: VS Maverick, 2-1
First game I manage to battle through consecutive Thalias and Nobles, while I do control his top with 2 Portent. A timely Terminus, an UA on his Sylvan Library (the 3 Plains helped here) and a Jace afterwards meant the game was over. Second game I got stupidly choked when tapped out for a Snapcaster+Swords trick. Never found a relevant Fetchland or 2nd Plain to cast UA….. Third game the Monastery Mentor controlled the board with ease.
Round three: VS LED Dredge, 0-2
Game one my opponent manages a t2 kill with Flayer of the Hatebound. Game two I slow his combo by Forcing a Breakthrough and trying to Surgical his only dredger (GGT), but got Street Wraithed instead and died a turn later, stripped by Cabal Therapies and beaten by an Iona on white.
Round four: VS Elves, 2-0
First game, my opponent tried not to overextend the board and tried a sly t3 kill with 3 creatures and Craterhoof. No terminus on top, but 1 STP and a Snapcaster destroy his maths. Multiple predicts after, provide me with lots of choices that resulted in an epic battle between an army of Elves VS an army of Angels. Angels won :smile: . Second game, I manage to put t2 a Mana Maze on the Table and since my opponent never drew Decays (don’t know if he even boarded them), all I had to do was countering the GSZ for Reclamation Sages.
Round five: VS BUG Delver, 2-0
Game one I counter two consecutive Hymns, I UA + Predict a Liliana, while I slowly killed him with Snapcaster beatdown. Game two, I dodge his discards with a t0 Leyline. I immediately Sword his t1 Deathrite and 2 turns later I won the counterwar for the Blood Moon. His 2nd turn Delver was easy to handle afterwards.
Quarter-Finals: VS Omnitell, 2-0
Game one, after I counter his S&T, the game became a grindfest on which I came on top due to predict. I kill him too with Snapcaster beatdown. Game two, he wins the counterwar for the S&T with 2 Pyroblasts. I miss Pyroblast …. It was somewhat funny, him revealing Omniscience and me revealing a Mana Maze. He had no threats in hand and I manage to UA his enchantment while protecting both my hatepiece and (later) Jace from any more Pyroblasts with ease.
Semi-Finals: VS Czech pile, 2-0
What a great matchup! They have so many removals that are absolutely dead against us. First game Leovold got immediately UA+Predict, and I was lucky enough to Terminus my opponents TNN. Jace took the game in time. Second game, I tried to quickly dominate the board with a Mentor and a timely Toxic Deluge from my opponent stopped my plans. But that meant he got tapped out on his turn, thus another Blood Moon victory was at hand.
Finals: VS 4C Loam: -
We split the prize but we played the games nevertheless. I got wrecked in both of them. Chalices on 1 stopped half my deck, GSZ for Teeg stopped my answers to the Chalice (UA), Loam’s card advantage engine is like Predict’s abusive father and Punishing Fire laughs in the face of Jace. Game two I tried to sneak a Blood Moon victory, but a Mox Diamond two turns later ensured the Decay mana. My opponent was experienced enough to play around Surgical+Snapcasters with both open Groves for his PF engine and cycling lands for his Loams. It was probably the first time I really missed the Top+fetch card selection engine.


Conclusion: Everything Mana Maze does, Ethersworn Canonist does better, with the exception of dying to Massacre. Leyline wrecks Burn. It would have probably wrecked Storm too if I had paired with it (EtW is not a terrifying threat since Leyline stops their discards too). I was satisfied with the lone Mountain + BM package. The insta win that BM provides should not be underestimated. I will probably test it with Volcanics too though. That said, I like the 3 Plains too. Makes the mana base more fluent and gives more options. 4 Counterspell was a bit too much. Perhaps a split of 3 Counterspell/1 Spell Pierce is better. I see many people here like the 3UA/2StP split. 2UA was fine for me. I don’t want to push my luck too much with the white mana and I play 3 Plains. Very few number of Abrupt Decays in the new meta.

EDIT: I appologize for the long post.

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Love your detailed response!

Just wondering, leyline's there mainly against burn, would you ever consider Counterbalance in the sideboard (1-3, or even 4 if they can replace all of your leylines) since they serve a good purpose against Burn, Storm and more?

Since a lot of people seem to like articles about the viability of a deck, here's one by the great BBD:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/articl...tcg-social-mtg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sefir

Decklist

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra

SB
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Mana Maze
1 Hydroblast
1 Mountain

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+4 Terminus

I'm putting together the stock UW list in paper, and will hopefully be able to find somebody to get some games in next week to test it out. I'd love to contribute a little, so I'll try and grind through some of the harder matchups.

I have Burn built as well, so I'll always be able to test against that deck, but what other matchups should I spend some time on? I don't know anybody in my area who has storm, so I might not be able to test against that deck, but I'll probably be able to get some games in against Show and Tell and Reanimator. What other decks should I look to be playing against?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

So I'm curious about why you played the basic mountain + blood moon instead of Back to basics? It seems like you're valuing the card really heavily and I don't think the cost associated with the mountain and no other red cards warrants inclusion.

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Truth is I want to put the Pyroblasts too. I probably will in the future. B2B was easier to play, but easier to play around by my opponents too. The surprise factor of turning a pure UW colour built to UWR in games 2-3 mattered too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tel'Lythari

Just wondering, leyline's there mainly against burn, would you ever consider Counterbalance in the sideboard (1-3, or even 4 if they can replace all of your leylines) since they serve a good purpose against Burn, Storm and more?

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Not in the SB, but I did tried 3 CB in the main (lowering the Counterspell numbers). I was not that impressed. Against Burn by 2nd-3rd turn (when basically CB goes online), I was heavily down on life and not able to manipulate my library+control the board with ease. After all, Fireblast is still Fireblast. And a smart Storm player can play around it if he hadn't discarded it from your hand first. Leyline is a killer option against Burn, Storm and really good against Heavy-discard decks like BUG Delver. Requires no less than 4 SB slots however. Probably more powerful in a known meta. Bottom line, I believe that nowadays CB's importance is greater if you want to use it as a CA tool (f.e. against Elves or Delver decks) than a lock piece (where Leyline is IMHO the card to go against Burn/Storm. Being untargettable from Alluren's Strix and Food Chain's Ballista is a bonus). Perhaps I'm wrong. That's what we all try to figure. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kagehisa

+4 Terminus

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Obviously
:laugh:

I had the exact same experience with CB vs Burn too, I hated it.

Thanks for the report, sefir. I can see why that list is heavily vulnerable to 4c loam, I managed to beat them pretty soundly yesterday with the 3UA/2STP build and a Kor Firewalker in the board. UA is very good against their Chalice plan and sometimes you just need to let Teeg chew on you for a while before you can exile him or flash in a Snapcaster for a block.

Hi guys !

First of all thanks to everyone for this brainstorm and these good ideas.

I'm testing Memory Lapse instead of Counterspell in the pack and it's just amazing.

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/...5BEMA%255D.jpg

I do not know if one of you had the same idea, but I strongly encourage you to test the card.
It gives us free Time Walk ever and ever...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by melaar

Hi guys !

First of all thanks to everyone for this brainstorm and these good ideas.

I'm testing Memory Lapse instead of Counterspell in the pack and it's just amazing.

https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/...5BEMA%255D.jpg

I do not know if one of you had the same idea, but I strongly encourage you to test the card.
It gives us free Time Walk ever and ever...

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The problem with this card is that it isn't good on its own, (counterspell) and doesn't deal with a resolved permanent to buy time (Unexpectedly absent). It requires the 1-2 punch in order to be any good, and is otherwise just strictly worse than the other two cards, in my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

The problem with this card is that it isn't good on its own, (counterspell) and doesn't deal with a resolved permanent to buy time (Unexpectedly absent). It requires the 1-2 punch in order to be any good, and is otherwise just strictly worse than the other two cards, in my opinion.

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"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not." is a very good quotation :smile:

I think the same as you Minniehajj. It's true that this card alone is less strong than the two others. But I tested it, and I saw that it shines wonderfully alongside : Portent, Snap, UA and JTMS.

Memory Lapse seems good against storm but it sounds awful against something like Sneak Attack if they're just going to get to recast it next turn.

I want to try this, I like the look of it with the tricks it has piling on. It's also where I eat crow and admit I was very wrong about predict. That said does anyone here feel up to a primer? This is gathering steam online and this thread, old and we'll outdated is in dire need of upgrade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I want to try this, I like the look of it with the tricks it has piling on. It's also where I eat crow and admit I was very wrong about predict. That said does anyone here feel up to a primer? This is gathering steam online and this thread, old and we'll outdated is in dire need of upgrade.

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Already on it. Should be done by Monday evening.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

Already on it. Should be done by Monday evening.

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Swell. Please pm Julian when you do and let him know he can retire this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minniehajj

Already on it. Should be done by Monday evening.

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That's awesome!

How does everyone feel about Engineered Explosives? It saw some play in pre-ban builds. I like the card a lot: does the shift from UWR to UW affect its viability? Critical 3-drops that are no longer answered in straight UW are TNN, Lili, and Leovold: it remains to be great against tokens and Chalices. It is yet another card for Gaddock Teeg to shut off, however, which is unfortunate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann

How does everyone feel about Engineered Explosives? It saw some play in pre-ban builds. I like the card a lot: does the shift from UWR to UW affect its viability? Critical 3-drops that are no longer answered in straight UW are TNN, Lili, and Leovold: it remains to be great against tokens and Chalices. It is yet another card for Gaddock Teeg to shut off, however, which is unfortunate.

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If only aiming to deal with chalice and token, I suggest Detention Sphere instead in UW build

I don't know where you are with your sideboard, but Submerge is currently bonker if you're packing 4-predicts in your main.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sefir

Not in the SB, but I did tried 3 CB in the main (lowering the Counterspell numbers). I was not that impressed. Against Burn by 2nd-3rd turn (when basically CB goes online), I was heavily down on life and not able to manipulate my library+control the board with ease. After all, Fireblast is still Fireblast. And a smart Storm player can play around it if he hadn't discarded it from your hand first. Leyline is a killer option against Burn, Storm and really good against Heavy-discard decks like BUG Delver. Requires no less than 4 SB slots however. Probably more powerful in a known meta. Bottom line, I believe that nowadays CB's importance is greater if you want to use it as a CA tool (f.e. against Elves or Delver decks) than a lock piece (where Leyline is IMHO the card to go against Burn/Storm. Being untargettable from Alluren's Strix and Food Chain's Ballista is a bonus). Perhaps I'm wrong. That's what we all try to figure. :)

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Hey, that was what I did too (Lower CSpell for 3-4 CBs), though I haven't played much so I didn't know how good it would be eventually. From what I'm seeing, it feels like Predict has taken over CB as the CA engine while Portent is now pseudo-SDT given how it enables our Miracles as well as Predicts. Miracles has evolved from Counter-Top to Predict-Portent :)

Thanks for your feedback! Appreciate it. I've only been theory-crafting so far (with only a couple of games in the bag) as there hasn't been much time to grind. It's nice to see you testing Leylines and making them work out. Cheers to your innovation!

Is there a list of Vods or YouTube videos of this new build around?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nestalim

I don't know where you are with your sideboard, but Submerge is currently bonker if you're packing 4-predicts in your main.

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Yes, Submerge should really be nice but the Turn 1 Underground Sea, Shaman is bad news sometimes. I love Submerge as a card, really.

Its friends Vanishment and Set Adrift are on my watch list too.

Why this overuse of Portent ? Some tricks with predict ? Why not playing the classical preordain ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by M1n1stry

Why this overuse of Portent ? Some tricks with predict ? Why not playing the classical preordain ?

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Some reasons (in no particular order):

1. It helps set up Predict for next turn by letting you pick the worst card to Predict away whereas you're stuck Predicting away only 1 card out of 2 compared to Portent's out of three. Also by seeing three cards you have the option to Predict two turns from that Portent on your upkeep.
2. It triggers Terminus on your opponent's turn.
3. It bypasses Leovold and Spirit of the Labyrinth.
4. It makes fatesealing with Jace into a deterministic win condition.
5. It sees 4 cards whereas Preordain only sees 3.
6. It synergizes with Unexpectedly Absent.


I would still standby the key reasons to use Portent is because of synergy, bypassing Leovold and being able to see 4 cards in total.

The big reason is that it see's 4 instead of 3, and as a control deck, specifically a draw go control deck, having the card the turn your cast it instead of next upkeep isn't a big drawback, compared to proactive decks like combo or delver. And it gives you more flexibility with predict, which is a more critical piece of the deck than pre ban.