S&T is the one card I would be extremely happy to see leave, I just find it way too herp derp.
I find its such an unfun card.
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S&T is the one card I would be extremely happy to see leave, I just find it way too herp derp.
I find its such an unfun card.
The worst part about S&T is that there is no single answer to everything it can get out unless you attack the Show and Tell itself, which requires stack/hand interaction (pretty much limited to Esper colors). You can't answer Griselbrand the same way you can Emrakul, which can't be answered the same way as Iona/Proggy (Hypergenesis/, which can't be answered the same way as Omniscience or Sneak Attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Fairly certain you COULD ban sfm and leave tnn
Affinity had etched champion and that deck isn't very good and despite tnn being a merfolk, that deck hasn't put up many result AFAIK
Haven't thought on that too hard mind
I think the best answer is ashen rider (which doesn't even beat a shown sneak attack with red open), but then you have to, you know, run ashen rider.
Huh, apparently I'm a red player now because I think Brainstorm is overpowered.
I'm still waiting for someone to put forth a good argument for keeping BrainTrain around. I don't buy all the jank people have come up with to justify their opinions. Brainstorm getting the axe would not make Legacy into Modern, and whoever believes that doesn't know anything about Modern, or Legacy for that matter.
Well, Brainstorm is often only as good as the individual playing it. It's a skill-based card, and sometimes it even locks you out of a game. When it's at its best, it utilizes a shuffle effect, requiring a second card (fetches did make brainstorm quite a bit better than it used to be), and that's a compact combo, of which there are many, and of those there are several that are more powerful. It's just a cantrip (albeit the best cantrip), and while they sometimes find you the cards you need to win the game, they don't win you the game. They net you card quality, but don't net you card advantage. Compared to the majority of other cards within the threads discussion, while a strong card, brainstorm is not anything to do with what needs fixed in this format. Brainstorm is a well-designed card whose power is reflected by the power of the cards played alongside it.
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Brainstorm will not be banned because it is the sole reason to play Legacy in the first place. If you don't like the way Legacy is, then I suggest you go play Modern.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
At yesterdays tournament I was attacked by two Goblins Guides. I Brainstormed, put two lands back just to draw them right away. So I just drew three cards for U. Clearly overpowered. Let's just ban Brainstorm.
NOT!
In all seriousness - stop it.
Greetings
This kind of statement shits me to tears. Please, come up with an original responce. Don't banter around the "Fuck off and play Modern" card. Answer the fucking question or shut the Fuck up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
Brainstorm is not in my mind a ban worthy card. It is just the most visible card played on blue. It's a strong card that needs other cards to work with it inabling lines of play and thought that would otherwise not be possible. I think it's a strong card. But I agree it should not be untouchable.
Brainstorm is NOT the skill intensive card everyone makes it out to be. You can lock yourself with it Yes, but that has more to do with the luck of your draw over the power of the card. You where locked out anyway, only with Brainstorm you got the joy of knowing it.
Personally, I like that it adds line of play to the game, I only with the other colours had something comparable in power. Right now the balance is all off with the colour pie. But honestly, who thinks that's ever going to change?
But can I come up with a non traditional responce as to why it should stay? No. No I can't. So I can all but say I think the card is ok, but I understand the arguments against it
If Brainstorm is a requirement to play Legacy (and we're getting closer with over 2/3 of all decks playing it now), it's actually a pretty good reason to ban it, similiar to Mental Missstep. Just saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
And not everybody does enjoy playing blue and Brainstorm.
About the "Brainstorm requiring skill"-thing: I have yet to see an article that actually clarifies which of those glorified Brainstorm lines actually require skill. "Draw 3, put two cards back, play fresh answer found within the top 3 cards" takes no skill at all. And I agree with Dice_Box: If you're Brainstorm-locked, it's just that you're informed about it. Brainstorm isn't to blame in that situation since you would have drawn junk either way.
Imagine a format with bot S&T and TNN gone - a world where you actually have to interact with your opponent in a meaningful way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Bonus points for pretty much clearing a good chunk of Wizards' recent fuck-ups which all made blue stronger: Emrakul, Griselbrand, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite and TNN
They'd still be playable in graveyard decks, which is why I prefer banning the targets, banlist length be damned (also, add Jin-Gitaxias to the list. He exists, even if he's totally overshadowed by Griseltard). Cheat-a-fatty is fine and even interesting when the cards are not as obscene as the ones currently being played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Hence why I said "pretty much". They're weaker in GY strategies, though, since it takes another step to make them vulnerable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Wizards, please unbann Survival of the Fittest!
I'd like to see Survival back, in all honesty.
Me too. Won't change my win/loss record and I'm pretty sure that it will shut this threads current line of discussion down.
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I don't know how brainstorm has gone this long without being banned. After it got restricted in Vintage I figured it was a sitting duck. I don't know if it'll get banned now or ever, but it's the most bannable card in the format.
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Memory jar would be interesting. They won't unban it but it seems fine. Trash for treasure/sneak it into play strategies are going to be worse than sneaking Griselbrand into play by a wide margin. Hard casting it seems way worse than Ad Nauseum/Time Spiral.
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I think EarthCraft will get unbanned and that's all. It won't see any real play.
Re: Brainstorm skillz – For the most part, I find Brainstorm decision trees lack branches. Maybe I'm overthinking, but when you have land + fetch, tap for BStorm, the question of "fetch away trash" vs. "don't fetch" basically comes down to, "Do I fear Stifle?" I know it's not quite that black and white – after playing enough games of Miracles to know how bad I am w/ that deck, I know there's other questions that can pop up depending on what you've got; but in most situations, I feel like the line of play for Brainstorm is straightforward.
I guess "skill-testing" means "don't throw it away at the first opportunity," but that makes it about as skill-testing as Lightning Bolt.
Like I said earlier though, I'm really of two minds on a ban. On its own merits, the card's certainly well above the power curve by any reasonable metric, and it's an auto-include if you're playing blue – those are both strikes against it. I also don't buy into the argument that "other colors just need better tools!" in the context of banning, because the other colors don't have those tools. It's also undeniable that the sheer card-selection power of the format – led by Brainstorm, of course – has a compressing effect on the number of viable decks; a lot of T2 strategies would be bigger players if card selection was weaker. (I'm thinking of things such as Enchantress, various versions of Loam, certain aggro strategies.)
All that being said, though, the format still has Preordain, Ponder and a handful of also-rans (Predict, Serum Visions and Portent all come to mind). And more importantly, it still has Force of Will; combine that with blue card selection, and the color naturally gets pushed as the de facto combo-fighting color. (I recognize that Duress, Thoughtseize and Inquisition would all be more powerful w/o Brainstorm running around.) So I'm not entirely certain that banning Brainstorm would actually do a whole lot to change the nature of the format. You'll still have inexpensive card filtering, free and cheap disruption and a relative lack of fast mana, tutors and card-advantage tools.
Like I said, I'm of two minds. If pressed, I'd probably come down on the "no ban" side, mostly because I don't see a Brainstorm ban addressing many of the complaints leveled against the card, even as I recognize that it's easily the best card-selection tool in the format.
I am surprised so many people argue to ban brainstorm. There is no doubt that the card is omnipresent and above power level due to fetch-lands. However the card defines the format and most people love the format because of that fact. Most importantly Brainstorm is "agnostic" and can be played in all kinds of blue combo, aggro-control, midrange and control decks so the format is not "held hostage" by a certain deck/strategy due to brainstorm, which would make it boring. There are always meta-shifts/developments happening with brainstorm to keep things interesting and there has always been enough room for non brainstorm decks to be Tier1 (maverick, jund, DnT, elves, merfolk, goblins, dredge,...).
Problematic for the format is only if a "non agnostic" card becomes too powerful and a certain archetype takes over. It could happen with Show and Tell with an enchantment that reads "when ~ comes into play you win the game"... And at this point it seems like SFM/TNN have a similar effect.
I think it is interesting that so many people call for the banning of Show and Tell or at least think banning Show and Tell would be OK. Griselbrand is the real problem in that deck. IMO Griselbrand is the most bannable card in Legacy (Brainstorm makes the format, let's not seriously discuss that). Griselbiscuit is better than a large chunk of the cards currently on the banned list. That's not saying that I think it should be banned… But it would be #1 in my discussion if I was in charge of the bannings.