[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by Shagstaman

it's worth it, and it's not going anywhere.. ;)

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Thats ballsy to say, given its a tribal deck and so only getting potential new prints if a block contains that race or within Commander products and the like. Cradles, Bayou, DRS and even Heritage Druid have a questionable pricetag and Elves' metagame position was highly varying over the last 3 years.

"I'm not a blue mage by any means, but I really like big mana strategies, casting a lot of spells and drawing cards" is something that confuses me as thats exactly what blue is doing in Legacy: casting 15+ spells a game, drawing cards and finish the opponent with a bug-mana-play a la Gurmag Angler, S&T, Ad Nauseam, etc.. Dismissing blue in general as a newcomer in Legacy is wack and Elves is a deck which punishes suboptimal keeps and plays especially when you sit between PunishingFire & Terminus on the one side of the metagame spectrum and ShowAndTell & Storm on the other with the decks you are preying for, being currently niche decks.

If you got burned in the past by metagame shifts destroying your investment, I can not recommend exposing yourself to that with Elves, which has a tough time evolving with 54+ cards set in stone and barely MB options to react to metagame shifts. I consider D&T in this case are more suitable choice, bot only to battle the metagame, but because of its ability to adapt to metagame shifts and getting new cards constantly.

You should absolutely test all the decks for free in cockatrice before buying into any one and watch some youtube T8 elimination round videos and see how these decks fit you

Did I mention the sheer amount of fun the deck is? --IMO that's what legacy is all about...picking a deck that is fun to you and becoming an absolute master at it.

If you wanna just be spikey and pick decks that are good metagame calls week to week--DON'T BUY LEGACY CARDS. Just borrow decks from people...that's what all the pros and grinders do. You think these dudes who make $10/hr sorting cards for a living can afford multiple legacy decks?? =/

unless you're richey rich and can just ball out and get 4-of each dual and all the staples...then, by all means, do you.

I have to agree with Lemnear here: Elves is good for now, has been good for a while, and some more meta-adjustment flexibility was uncovered recently in the NO-free builds, but overall the deck is the kind that loses more than it gains from the passage of time.

Elves is not especially fragile in terms of being a strict meta deck that could turn unviable tomorrow. Like the decks it plays similarily to - Shardless, Storm, Show and Tell - Elves has a lot of raw power to just drown people in cards or press I Win buttons (sometimes after casting half the deck) but it doesn't track the rest of the meta in power creep because of the strict criteria for card inclusion (=preferably small, green creatures of type Elf).

Even Storm gets more playables over time (primarily new disruption/protection options) because the requirements are looser and cares less about opposing cards than Elves does, and same goes for the other noblue creature deck in the format - D&T can incorporate random stuff a lot more easily than Elves can. The generic cantrip-fueled three-colour goodstuff shells will probably never go out of style.

This is a reality that it pays to be aware of: Just look at Goblins. They successively get less and less meaningful prints and eventually fade into relative obscurity.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Elves is not especially fragile in terms of being a strict meta deck that could turn unviable tomorrow. Like the decks it plays similarily to - Shardless, Storm, Show and Tell - Elves has a lot of raw power to just drown people in cards or press I Win buttons (sometimes after casting half the deck) but it doesn't track the rest of the meta in power creep because of the strict criteria for card inclusion (=preferably small, green creatures of type Elf).

Even Storm gets more playables over time (primarily new disruption/protection options) because the requirements are looser and cares less about opposing cards than Elves does, and same goes for the other noblue creature deck in the format - D&T can incorporate random stuff a lot more easily than Elves can. The generic cantrip-fueled three-colour goodstuff shells will probably never go out of style.

This is a reality that it pays to be aware of: Just look at Goblins. They successively get less and less meaningful prints and eventually fade into relative obscurity.

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Yeah this is what I sort of expected reading back through some of the past pages, but I didn't really want to be the case. I've had a lot of fun goldfishing with proxies but I've never physically played a game of Legacy so I can't let that rule my decision. If I had to restate my reason for looking primary at Elves it would be:

Elves looks like a fun, flavorful creature deck playing my favorite color (green) and doing some of my favorite things: Playing lots of cards in a single turn, creating large amounts of mana, having interactive and varying routes to victory. It's positioned well enough in the metagame that I wouldn't be embarrassed to bring it to an FNM or even a more competitive setting.

It sounds like most of that still may be true, but I shouldn't look to see my investment appreciate value over time and Elves become a true format juggernaut.

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Originally Posted by Jazz

Yeah this is what I sort of expected reading back through some of the past pages, but I didn't really want to be the case. I've had a lot of fun goldfishing with proxies but I've never physically played a game of Legacy so I can't let that rule my decision. If I had to restate my reason for looking primary at Elves it would be:

Elves looks like a fun, flavorful creature deck playing my favorite color (green) and doing some of my favorite things: Playing lots of cards in a single turn, creating large amounts of mana, having interactive and varying routes to victory. It's positioned well enough in the metagame that I wouldn't be embarrassed to bring it to an FNM or even a more competitive setting.

It sounds like most of that still may be true, but I shouldn't look to see my investment appreciate value over time and Elves become a true format juggernaut.

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That last sentence is pretty much the truth, in the long term barring WotC starting to print more useful creatures/elves in eg. BG. As for your assessment: Elves is strong, competitive in a variety of metagames and generally flexible in-game. It has game vs. or is favoured against most fair decks in the format and primarily suffers against combo decks that are faster (TES, Reanimator, S&T) or can pack disruption and a similar clock (ANT, Infect). You get the ability to do just about everything that makes Magic fun to a passable or great level in a single deck. Good deck is good and likely to remain so for a long time, but not for as long a time as a BUG/UWR/Grixis shell.

This all obviously hinges on WotCs policy for printing green creatures with effects :D

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Thats ballsy to say, given its a tribal deck and so only getting potential new prints if a block contains that race or within Commander products and the like. Cradles, Bayou, DRS and even Heritage Druid have a questionable pricetag and Elves' metagame position was highly varying over the last 3 years.

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I'd always considered Cradles as pretty good investments...reserved list status plus, I mean, Wizards can only continue to print creatures right? Or do you think that the general down-trending that Elves might experience will lead to Cradles being less valued (since this is the "premium" deck for them)?

Much like someone noted in Nic Fit, we could use more green CA engines. Preferably small, Elf shaped, GSZ'able. Odds are slim it seems for something to really outclass what is set in stone for us already.

Incredible for me to read this last page less than a year after an extension that brought shaman of the pack and dwynen's elite.
Also a deck featuring GSZ, being able to play crop/fauna or other tutoring tools, will always get some new playable.

Elves can adapt around almost anything. It is quite strong in the actual metagame, which has a low amount of combo decks.

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Originally Posted by dte

Incredible for me to read this last page less than a year after an extension that brought shaman of the pack and dwynen's elite.

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Did they actually do anything for the deck? I see shaman of the pack here and there as a one-off just like to many other random stuff like Ezuri at times. It hasn't improved the deck, beyond what DRS is already doing in terms of non-combat-damage. Also please mind the gap between the special set they were printed in and the mayority of Elves staple cards.

I well remember the position of Elves during the year DTT/TC were ruling the format, which I took into consideration in regards to recommending to buy in or not.

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Originally Posted by dte

Also a deck featuring GSZ, being able to play crop/fauna or other tutoring tools, will always get some new playable.

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"some new playable" isn't quite the goal. Every green fatty is "playable" thanks to NO & GSZ, but we look for improvements of the decks core which is a much greater issue looking into the future. The last mayor improvement WotC dropped for us was Reclamation Sage. I doubt there is anything coming which could slip in between Quirion, Symbiote, DRS, Visionary & GSZ to fundamentally adress the decks natural weaknesses against combo & Sweepers.

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Originally Posted by dte

Elves can adapt around almost anything. It is quite strong in the actual metagame, which has a low amount of combo decks.

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Speaking of weaknesses: You are aware about the fact that Miracles & Storm have currenly a ridiculous metagame penetration right now?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I well remember the position of Elves during the year DTT/TC were ruling the format, which I took into consideration in regards to recommending to buy in or not.

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It wasn't really in such a bad shape.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

"some new playable" isn't quite the goal. Every green fatty is "playable" thanks to NO & GSZ, but we look for improvements of the decks core which is a much greater issue looking into the future. The last mayor improvement WotC dropped for us was Reclamation Sage. I doubt there is anything coming which could slip in between Quirion, Symbiote, DRS, Visionary & GSZ to fundamentally adress the decks natural weaknesses against combo & Sweepers.

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DRS, reclamation sage and Cavern of Souls are staples, and they are quite recent. Packmaster, Shaman of the pack are also recent good cards, that help to shape the deck. I am not saying that every list should incorporate them, but that Elves has a lot of room to play cards to adapt around metagame shifts.

I also do not think that the deck is particularly weak against sweepers. It is weak against combo, that I agree with. But here I can easily imagine new printings can help: a new WG hatebear like teeg for instance, or maybe a GB tidehollow sculler? Wizard seems to like hatebears. (I know that it is wishful thinking, but it worked for sage :) )

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Speaking of weaknesses: You are aware about the fact that Miracles & Storm have currenly a ridiculous metagame penetration right now?

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I see a lot of miracles, and not that much storm. Our MU is not bad against miracle. Miracle can even be a good MU. Decks have to adapt, And with a lot of Eldrazi and miracles, 3/4-of Cavern helps a lot.
You cannot bitch about not having new cards, and wanting to win with a two years old list.
BtW, as I read you writing a lot about it, I didn't find that overloading with sage worked that well. And I tested it a lot, because it was an appealing idea for sure.

I lose to miracles often, =( but I am working on that--likely sbing and possibly playing incorrectly vs them.

Storm I actually beat more often than not...pressure + cabal therapy goes a long way.

I know this has been discussed but just trying to stimulate conversation. Natural order is a liability against miracles and delver. What if in our 4 drop slot, instead of NO we run more card advantage like sylvan messenger and go grindier. I don't think it's better than combo, but it may be more fitted for this meta. A more midrange oriented deck with glimpse of nature and sylvan messenger as card advantage.

Steaming some Legacy Leagues before the game tonight. Tune in and join us at twitch.tv/itsJulian :cool:

In the last 5 years green sun's zenith, deathrite shaman, abrupt decay, craterhoof, and reclamation sage have been tremendous for elves.

Unfortunately for Elves, the top deck of the format crushes it.

What I like about Elves is that it feels like a legacy deck when you play it and

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Originally Posted by dte

Our MU is not bad against miracle. Miracle can even be a good MU.

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I never thought I was going to read it in my life.

I disagree 100 % of that and I think do not need many arguments for it.

I usualy see julian crushing miracles :D

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Originally Posted by Togores

I usualy see julian crushing miracles :D

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Yea, but lets be blunt, he is a far better player than most of us are.

I've almost got a handle on how to consistently beat miracles (>50% vs good pilots...scrubs don't count) but am not quite there yet. I can beat a lot of my "rough" matchups outside obvious 90/10s such as reanimator--just need a bit more levelups.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/ouhteb...bJiYQsyNuW.png

Mini NO?

turning visionary into WRP is about the only good use I can think of for that card... =(
well...dork into rec sage...but yea, terrible. hehe

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Originally Posted by Shagstaman

turning visionary into WRP is about the only good use I can think of for that card... =(
well...dork into rec sage...but yea, terrible. hehe

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Usually the goal is to put Visionary -under- WRP which you can't do using this.