[Deck] Death and Taxes

So at GP Prague between rounds I was chatting with Michael Bonde who was also on mono white, and we both had just played against reanimator, him picking up a loss and I a win.

We talked about sideboarding in the matchup and we figured out that we were sideboarding completely differently and disagreed about the way to approach the matchup after board.

I'd like to hear the way some of you guys board and how you play the matchup after board, before I tell you how Bonde and I handle the match up and how we disagree.

So post-board I typically expect reanimator to bring in:

Inkwell and/or Elesh Norn
Pithing Needle (for Karakas)


So our best cards (typically) are:

Rest in Peace (obv)
Karakas
Creature removal: Swords, Path, or Judgement

Phy Revoker can also be used to shut-off Griselbrand or Lotus Petal


Our worst cards are:

Mom -- No removal, doesn't protect vs. Elesh
Jitte -- Creatures in Reanimator are too big


So I'd probably play something like:

+2-3 RiPs
+0-1 Paths
+1-2 Council's Judgments
-4 Moms
-1 Jitte

In:
Containment Priest
Rest in Peace (+ E tutors)
Council's Judgment
Path to Exiles
Extra Mirran Crusaders
Surgical
For Imperial, obviously Faerie Macabre
Relic Warder (eats Needle / random Petals)
Any Fiend Hunter / Banisher Priests in the board

Side out:
Jitte
Magus is terrible w/ Imperial since it shuts off your own Karakas, so that's an easy side out
Some number of Revokers since it's generally a bit slow vs a fast Griselbrand / Lotus Petals
Usually one SfM since you don't want multiples
If it looks like they're playing Massacre/Dread of Night as their only DnT hate, then Moms, possibly all 4
Flickerwisp is only okay, a bit slow and weak to Dread of Night, so cutting some is fine


AsmodeusDM, Reanimator very frequently plays Abrupt Decay and often plays Disfigure or Echoing Truth. So Mom is often quite good. If you see a Green dual, then you definitely shouldn't be cutting Mom.

I forgot about C Priest!

I still am iffy about keeping in mom's; adecay is likely for RiPs and Mom doesn't protect against that.

But maybe I'm off base here; I can definitely see cutting SFM... it's not like SoFI is a instant game-ending play anyways (and Jitte is coming out).

Phy Revoker may be too slow; but at least it does something (potentially game changing)...

Mom has been pretty good for me vs Reanimator. Protecting C Priest / Thalia, getting attackers past their board for the final damage, giving a flyer pro-Griselbrand so they can't gain life. Plus, you don't always have a Rest in Peace, and the Decays that they play are going to be looking for something to do.

Mono White (Using Enevoldsen's List for consistency +1 mom, -1 Spirit) -

OUT:
Jitte
4 Flicker
2 Crusader

IN:
Relic
2 RIP
2 Canonist
2 Containment

NMKS Imperial

OUT:
Jitte
3 Magus
4 Flicker

IN:
2 Surgical
1 Faerie Mac
1 Containment Preist
4 Canonist

I don't think you want additional spot removal, I see the match up being about tempo (from mana denial/disruption), we will never truly lock them out since they have answers to our hate. Being stuck with a bunch of removal in hand seems rough, although I could see a judgement or 2 if you have them to hedge against needle on Karakas (although more than likely they well be targeting their non-legendaries post board)

That is why I have always filled my remaining slots with canonists, seems like I am in the minority here but I see canonist as a bear that has the slight upside of possibly providing positive interaction, dodges -1/-1 whereas I have found the flicker ability to be rarely relevant, costs 3, and flying rarely seems to matter.

Seems like I am in the minority, however. Look forward to more weighing in.

WW
In:
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
x Path to Exile
x Council's Judgment
x Relic of Progenitus

Out:
4 Flickerwisp
1 SfM
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
x Mom

Imperial
WW
In:
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace or 2 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Path to Exile
1 Relic-Warder

Out:
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Flickerwisp
1 Jitte

I don't care for Canonist at all in the match; it's not like playing Storm or High Tide. If they are casting two spells a turn, I feel like they did it turn 1 and you are in trouble anyway. And even if Revoker is slow, it is better than Canonist. I basically want extra removal and extra GY hate.

Cwoj, I think Crusader is actually quite good. It is a fast clock, dodges all of their removal (other than Massacre), attacks past Griselbrand/Grave Titan.

As per spot removal, I am always happy to have one in my opening hand since it gives a not-Karakas play against a lot of their fastest starts. To maximize the chances of having one in your opening hand, you need to play more than 4. You're not boarding out any STPs w/ Enevoldsen's list, which would imply that 4 one mana removal spells is exactly the right number. But even if '4 is just right' were true, Path is actually a bit stronger than STP so you would want to swap in 2 for 2, since giving them a bunch of life is really relevant, especially vs Griselbrand / Reanimate. But I think it's more likely that 4 is not right, and personally I would play up to 8 if I could. (I've been trying 3 Paths in the board lately so I might come close to doing that...)

The risk to playing a ton of Path/STP effects is if they manage to quickly find and reanimate something with shroud/hexproof/Iona then you have some dead cards, but they can't always have Entomb and often their best play is to just go for whatever they can get in their yard.

I don't generally play Council's Judgment, but I think that should be an even easier include than Path, because the go all-in on a shroud/hexproof dude plan is one of their easier routes to victory + you'll generally have enough time to cast it.

What iatee said. There is no such thing as too much removal if they get a fatty out and Path is less painful than Swords, so it's a good one in this match. I generally want 6 or more pieces of removal, in whatever combination of StP + PtE + CJ + Banisher Priest/Fiend Hunter.

I do agree with the idea that Flickerwisp is too slow and doesn't really have any targets in the match-up... and being a flyer is kinda unimportant except for potentially blocking a griselbrand.

Hi all, I'm new as writer, but not as reader :) Good job to all DnT players, especially to @Medea and his new website. Regards from Spain.

@Bahra I think is a weird match. Massacre, Abrupt Decay, -1-1 effects. My SB would be:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [LG] Karakas
9 [10E] Plains (3)
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)

// Creatures
2 [M13] Serra Avenger
4 [MMA] Flickerwisp
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
2 [MBS] Mirran Crusader
1 [BNG] Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth

// Spells
4 [MMA] AEther Vial
1 [JGC] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [CNS] Council's Judgment
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [C14] Containment Priest
SB: 1 [M14] Banisher Priest
SB: 1 [BFZ] Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 1 [EX] Cataclysm

-4 STP
-1 Jitte
-2 Mirran
-2 Flickerwisp

+1 PTE
+3 RIP
+2 Containment
+1 Banisher Priest
+2 Councils

So my list was:

http://i.imgur.com/Wk7j85y.jpg

And I boarded the following:

+3 Rest in Peace
+2 Council's Judgement
+1 Retribution of the Meek

-3 Mirran Crusader
-2 Phyrexian Revoker
-1 Umezawa's Jitte

Bonde played almost the exact same list but with 2 Retribution of the Meek. So he had 7 cards to board in and 7 to board out, he boarded out the full Stoneforge Mystic package which shows how our gameplan differs.

I believe the match up is about fighting through their initial "brokenness" and then establishing a board state that is insurmountable for the reanimator player. A combination of resilient creatures and disruptive permanents such as Rest in Peace and Karakas. For me it's a grindy match up after board and that is why I want Batterskull and Sword of Fire and Ice.

Bonde believes that it is about preventing them from "going off" and chooses to go the more disruptive route and cuts the best cards for grinding, namely the cards that make up the Stoneforge Mystic package.

I make the assumption that the reanimator player is gonna try to fight through karakas first of all, with Pithing Needle or non-legendary creatures like Inkwell Leviathan and Grave Titan. That is where spot removal and equipment comes in handy. Flickerwisp is excellent vs. a Pithing Needle preventing a Karakas activation or (with the help of Mother of Runes) at holding back a Griselbrand. Often the reanimator player can only afford to draw 7 once or not at all because of early pressure from the mono white player and the life loss of resolving Reanimate on a Griselbrand. Mirran Crusader is too expensive for being nothing but a beater that hits through Griselbrand (again I believe we're a control-lock deck vs. Reanimator moreso than an aggro-prison deck). Jitte is the worst of the equipment and Phyrexian Revoker doesn't do enough to warrant 6 copies of cards with the sole purpose of preventing griselbrand activations (we have 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth already and they are far more effective because of shutting down card drawing as well as cantripping, with 1 more power even).

That is my reasoning for how I sideboard and I am yet to be convinced by other players' reasoning that I am wrong or should adjust my sideboarding even a little.

My tournament report from Dallas SCG Legacy Classic....not the most detailed,but...you get the gist.


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...516#post957516

Thanks for the report Demonic.

Bahra, I basically agree that the games will often be grindy, but for that reason I think that Mirran Crusader is great. You say you want resilient creatures in the matchup, but you're boarding out a card that's basically TNN against them. It also isn't an x/1, which barely matters for Dread of Night since you probably can't beat an early Dread of Night with that list, Crusader or no, but sometimes they'll have a one-of Golgari Charm.

With your deck I woulda dropped another Flickerwisp, Revoker and one SfM and kept the Crusaders. Flickerwisp/Revoker/SfM all provide useful but inconsistently useful effects, whereas Crusader is consistently a fast clock that they can't interact with.

I think you want some amount of the SfM package - Bskull gives you outs to racing Inkwell or Titan, Sofi is just good and draws you more hate + combined with Crusader you can race anything. But having multiple SfMs in your opening hand or one + an equipment is pretty awful since you're now going to be drawing Squires and you rarely will have the mana to be investing into multiple SfMs and multiple activations. So I think siding out one is fine. I've sided out everything but Sofi when I wasn't playing Bskull in the 75, since they're pretty awkward with just one piece of equipment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iatee

Thanks for the report Demonic.

Bahra, I basically agree that the games will often be grindy, but for that reason I think that Mirran Crusader is great. You say you want resilient creatures in the matchup, but you're boarding out a card that's basically TNN against them. It also isn't an x/1, which barely matters for Dread of Night since you probably can't beat an early Dread of Night with that list, Crusader or no, but sometimes they'll have a one-of Golgari Charm.

With your deck I woulda dropped another Flickerwisp, Revoker and one SfM and kept the Crusaders. Flickerwisp/Revoker/SfM all provide useful but inconsistently useful effects, whereas Crusader is consistently a fast clock that they can't interact with.

I think you want some amount of the SfM package - Bskull gives you outs to racing Inkwell or Titan, Sofi is just good and draws you more hate + combined with Crusader you can race anything. But having multiple SfMs in your opening hand or one + an equipment is pretty awful since you're now going to be drawing Squires and you rarely will mana to be investing into multiple SfMs and multiple activations. So I think siding out one is fine. I've sided out everything but Sofi when I wasn't playing Bskull in the 75, since they're pretty awkward with just one piece of equipment.

---

The thing is that Mirran Crusader is not good enough at grind and not good enough at disruption (it doesn't disrupt at all) to be worth 3 mana. And it also dies to Elesh Norn and Massacre. It's easy to ignore for reanimator and it doesn't have utility like Flickerwisp or Revoker, or is SUPER good at grinding like SFM.

So your deck list makes a significant difference.

I see your point on Flickerwisp. I wasnt even thinking that a WW build with Avenger would take those out instead of 'Wisp anyway.

3 Mirran Crusader is a lot, I like keeping 1.

2 Spirit of the Labyrinth means you can cut a couple of Revoker and maybe you get to use them on mana rocks.

Also, you had Retribution of the Meek and a 3rd RiP, and no PtE, Containment Priest or Fiend Hunter, so yeah, I think you are all in on Flickerwisp to deal with a Needle, since you can't flash in Priest and you have somewhat limited removal options. At that point, I think your choices are reasonable.

In that case, I would have sided slightly differently given your options:
OUT:
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 SfM or Flickerwisp

IN:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgement
1 Retribution of the Meek

I take it the argument wasn't over what comes in but what goes out?

I don't think SfM is better at grinding than Crusader - it takes a lot of turns and a lot of mana to set up anything, and a single Decay/Disfigure/anything can disrupt it and leads to a huge tempo loss. Crusader just comes down and is a guaranteed clock, they have a few turns to win now or find a Massacre. If you have a Vial, you never need to invest any mana into Crusader (unlike SfM) so you can Wasteland/Port/hold up Karakas / Containment Priest.

I also think that Revoker and Flickerwisps' disruptions are soft and inconsistent enough that the faster and more guaranteed clock is worth not having any disruption attached. Sure you *can* Flickerwisp a Needle and Karakas their legend when that board state is perfectly setup for that interaction, and sure Revoker can make Griselbrand 'only a 7/7 lifelink' or help cut them off mana if they were really dependent on Lotus Petal...but let's not pretend these guys are anywhere close to Thalia/SotL/Containment Priest in terms of disruption for this matchup.

I actually used to board out more Crusaders myself until one day I noticed how many games I seemed to be stealing with the ones I left in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redtwister

So your deck list makes a significant difference.

I take it the argument wasn't over what comes in but what goes out?

---

Yes I should've have provided a decklist but I guess that I was mostly thinking about sideboarding philosophy and match up approach as opposed to card by card sideboarding.

Yes the discussion was about what to take out

Bahra, I always take out Flickerwisps and leave at least the Batterskull in for Mystic. I rarely play with Mirran Crusader, but I think I would pull those in favor of better disuption - though the Flickerwisps come out first. Avengers too. And Revokers. I tend to have lots of strong disruption for this opponent, so anything that smells like aggro is on the chopping block. So, I am more on Bonde's train.

But Reanimator's path against D+T is hard, sort of like ours against Elves. That is, they might get away with a lucky Elesh Norn or Iona - if D+T does not have Karakas, it is game over. (I think that Gitaxian Probe is incredibly strong for Reanimator on turn 1, telling them what to Entomb in this decision.) But the safe route for them is slow-rolling beat down with something we can't unsummon. So I keep the Mystics as a hedge, because just having Batterskull around prevents that from working. Take out Batterskull and they really do have a clear path. If they happen to choose that path, you have lost a would-be great matchup.

One more thing: I preordered Thalia, Heretic Cather today. I told myself I was done buying cards after having sold every card not in D+T. But I can't pass this one up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Finn

One more thing: I preordered Thalia, Heretic Cather today. I told myself I was done buying cards after having sold every card not in D+T. But I can't pass this one up.

---

If she's as good as we all think, you have still sold every card "not in D+T". :wink: