[Deck] The Rock

@Egoist
The problem with Sculler is:
-Would you rather have 1CMC discard?
-Would you rather have Liliana?

If either of the above are true your list changes to 3-4 Lili and another 2-3 discard. Some people can use him decently enough; but for combo I'd rather max my 1CMC discard and soft-lock with Lily; for Fair decks I'd rather edict than put down a 2/2. I don't think he's bad except when I play him; so it could be a playstyle or play-error kind of thing. He's certainly decent next to Bob to force removal.

I'd definitely cut Stirring Wildwood. Those 4 Hymn in the side should be hatebears IMO; a 2 Teeg 2 Thalia split would be my guess. Cutting an SFM for a Goyf would probably be good in your list as well.


EDIT: I feel like Sculler is a weird middle ground between Lily, discard, and a threat. Certainly he can be great in some scenarios; such as a Discard into Sculler against a weak hand or some such. I think the part that makes him usable/good is building the deck to have synergy with him (ZP, Equips, etc) that way he can punch through weenies, win bear wars, and become a legit topdeck against hellbent opponents.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

@Egoist
The problem with Sculler is:
-Would you rather have 1CMC discard?
-Would you rather have Liliana?

If either of the above are true your list changes to 3-4 Lili and another 2-3 discard. Some people can use him decently enough; but for combo I'd rather max my 1CMC discard and soft-lock with Lily; for Fair decks I'd rather edict than put down a 2/2. I don't think he's bad except when I play him; so it could be a playstyle or play-error kind of thing. He's certainly decent next to Bob to force removal.

I'd definitely cut Stirring Wildwood. Those 4 Hymn in the side should be hatebears IMO; a 2 Teeg 2 Thalia split would be my guess. Cutting an SFM for a Goyf would probably be good in your list as well.


EDIT: I feel like Sculler is a weird middle ground between Lily, discard, and a threat. Certainly he can be great in some scenarios; such as a Discard into Sculler against a weak hand or some such. I think the part that makes him usable/good is building the deck to have synergy with him (ZP, Equips, etc) that way he can punch through weenies, win bear wars, and become a legit topdeck against hellbent opponents.

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I agree with a lot of this logic. I like Sculler as "hymn with legs". It isn't a direct 2-for-1, but more like a temporary CA situation. You get a creature + vision of their hand + a pseudo discard. It takes a threat/removal of their own to get rid of him. I think Sculler is actually better as a 2x compliment card than a 4x go-to. The bigger issue, of course, is that he warps your deck to being weenie-based. You'd have to mitigate this situation with goyfs and SFM stuff.

I'll mention that Sculler is one of the few, if only, discard cards that is tempo advantage instead of disadvantage; or at least conditionally (on both ends.)

Discard can grant tempo if an opponent's curve starts missing land/card drops or Sculler can lose tempo if the opponent has 1CMC removal (or enough excess mana to kill him and make their play.) What he can do is throw a deck out of curve while giving you a bear. When I had replaced Hymn with him the deck ran different and ok, but I didn't like giving action back to an opponent.

Possibly the most viable use of him is getting rid of opposing discard so that they have discard in the mid-late game where you may have played the important pieces of your hand? (of course, he's basically always good against combo..)

I've always been a little wary of going full-bore into Junk because I lack Goyfs, but I've been listening to Matt pumping Sylvan Library's tires for so long that I just decided to screw it and play a variation of his list. Tonight I took this to a 4-round tournament:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Sword of Feast & Famine

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Windswept Heath

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Krosan Grip
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Plague
1 Bitterblossom

Ignore the schizophrenic sideboard, I'm out of town, in an unfamilar meta, and I must've made a dozen changes while looking around the room.

Anyway, I went 2-2, but I have to say that Matt is right. Sylvan Library is the real deal. Thing got me out of so many jams. I might be too aggressive with it, actually, but I'll be playing with it more.

Rd. 1 vs. budget Shardless (still a couple Watery Graves, but everything else was complete) — he got me game 1 with triple Goyfs but I obliterated him game 2 (ending board state was him with only a Wasteland in play and me with like 10 permanents). My game 3 opener was atrocious but he mulliganed as well and I got there in the end.

Rd. 2 vs. Elves. So this was a nightmare, mostly because I don't think I played it correctly. Turn 1 I played a DRS, turn 2 I blind therapied naming Elvish Visionary and I hit 2 of them. Then I cast Stoneforge, got Jitte, and flashbacked DRS to take a Wirewood Symbiote. But he got a Quirion Ranger and Dryad Arbor down, which means I couldn't get counters, and I just didn't get there before he rebuilt. I really hate myself for this one because I just missed the interaction and took the most powerful card over the most important. Then game 2 I just got hoofed

Rd. 3 shardless again. Full build, which might have been relevant. This is where I think I was too aggressive with Library. I was trying to keep up with him on cards but his are free and mine cost life. Went 0-2, but played a third game for fun which I won and a 4th game that was very close when the last round started

Rd. 4 mana dredge (city, confluence, LED). Got blown out game 1 when I kept an opener of Thoughtseize, Liliana, Bob, Decay, and 3 lands. Whoops. Sided out all my discard and lilianas and won two grindy postboard games. In game 3, I played Teeg into Teeg to blow up two of his bridges and felt smart. Then he told me he sided out dread return anyway. Well, whatever, I still won.

I'm really looking forward to playing with Library again. It's just so powerful. I still might monkey with the goyf slots a bit (I had originally planned on running 3 Kitchen Finks expecting to play some burn, but when no one around the room was on it, I switched to what I played tonight) and the MD therapies are something I want to test against other Stoneforge decks, but it all comes back to Sylvan Library. It is a great way for us non-blue players to get some of that Brainstorm feel. A few times I was thoughtseized tonight and they left the Library there and took Stoneforge or something. Big mistake. Long live Sylvan.

I went 3-1 this week using a Kotr + Goyf list to experiment. It was something people did 5 years ago or so with some Top8s, so I was interested if the grave hate is enough to make it bad. Luckily for me I fought a D&T deck that boarded in three RiPs so I got to feel the pain of having a useless board (but the joy of winning over the top with a hoard of Lingering Souls :P.)

Anyway, wins against D&T, Storm, and a red Stompy deck; loss against Burg Delver.

Will be swapping over to something more like Matt's list for a short while and see if I like the Goyf + SFM package more than KotR + SFM. I feel like KotR + SFM both want to be dropped later which was the mana pressure I was feeling, where other decks have more 2-drops to pad SFM's mana-curve with (DGA has Sculler, Matt has Goyf, Mav has Thalia/Ooze/etc..) I'll be starting with a 3 SFM 2 Equip package with a SoLaS in the board (Junk/DGA/D&T are prevalent enough at the moment it seems good. I like it for Pro white on Teeg as well.) I noticed how much stronger the mana-base will be and am a bit excited by that.


I learned a good lesson this week anyway; leave your 1CMC discard in against Delver. I never considered that right until I realized I was raising my curve against a deck that wants to slow you down. It also allows threat removal against a counter-heavy hand or removal light hands. That's my musings for this week anyway.

I took my list to St. Louis this weekend, where I managed a meager 4-3 finish before dropping to begin the 5 hour drive home. I ran the list I've been talking about on here, except -1 Doran +1 Engineered Plague in the board after walking around the Legacy Trial the night before and seeing a LOT of Elves running around. Apparently that was a good call because I listened to the top 8 coverage on the drive home and they mentioned that there was an abundance of elves in the room.

R1 (0-1) - Elves (ha!). G1 my life total goes from 20 to 0. Thank you Craterhoof. G2 Gaddock Teeg shuts down his NO and GSZ long enough for me to get the board locked up w/ a Jitte and he scoops, showing me a hand of 2 GSZ and 1 NO. G3 I get Teeg and Grafdiggers Cage out, so his Decay's don't do enough. He's playing out threats and I finally find a Stoneforge for Jitte while I have 5 mana available. 5 mana being 1 less than I need to cast SFM, cast Jitte, and equip Jitte. He top decks a Craterfoof and hits me for 40-something. *sigh* One more turn and I would have locked it up.

R2 (0-2) - Cheerios. Yeah, got no real way to interact with triple Glimpse drawing your deck and casting a giant Grapeshot.

At this point I was planning on playing to three losses but at least 5 rounds.

R3 (1-2) - Leylines (yes, same guy from Kansas City). Both games he couldn't find the mana to cast an Opalescence before I beat him down with things carrying swords. Annoying thing: Leyline of Sanctity means you can't hit your opponent w/ damage from Sword of Fire and Ice. I was shocking the sword carrier so I could draw the card. Also: Suppression Field is annoying as hell. Not annoying: playing a three color deck with Deathrite Shaman and Engineered Explosives.

R4 (2-2) - Jund Can't recall much of these games other than the ones I won involved Bob getting me a few cards and Swords rendering creatures unblockable.

R5 (3-2) - Dredge - Double DRS in both games gets it done.

R6 (4-2) - Deadguy Ale (I think). After G1 I had actually ID'd it as D&T because I saw no black and did see Serra Avenger. G2 and G3 though, he revealed Savannah, Scrubland, Bob, Thoughtseize, and DRS. Games basically came down to who could get a threat online and out CA the other guy. G1 and G3 that was me. Pridemage nearly single handedly won me G3 thanks to the Exaulted trigger letting me swing past his Revoker (naming Pridemage) for the last 12 damage. He had taken 4 off Thoughtseizes and 2 of fetches and the remaining two came from an Exaulted Stoneforge swinging past the Revoker, so it really was the little Pridemage that could.

R7 (4-3) - Sneak and Show (and lack of sleep catches up with me). G1 I'm on the draw and kept an opening grip w/ 2 Thoughtseize, a Therapy, some threat or another that I cant remember and lands. He leads with Island into Ponder. I TS and see Ancient Tomb, FoW, 2 Emrakul, Sneak Attack, Show & Tell. Take Show & Tell. Next turn I rip another TS so I cast one, he Forces it and I cast the next, taking Sneak Attack. T3 I Therapy away the Emrakul's, land a Bob and then start beating while he tries to rebuild. He eventually scoops when he's at 6 and I have a SoLS on Bob and DRS. G2 he has the T1 S&T into Griselbrand but I dropped a Karakas with it. I bounce it, he draws 7. Some durdling commences and I'm beating him with I'm not even sure what when I commit a terrible mistake. I forget that this damn deck runs Blood Moon, and I'm fetching non-basics. He taps out for a Blood Moon, effectively locking me out. The following turn he taps out for a Sneak Attack. I have a Krosan Grip in hand. Had I just fetched basics, I should be able to get there. G3 I get a Bob out but he gets a Griselbrand and that's bigger, flies, and has lifelink all of which is super bad for me.

Didn't see a Delver deck nor Miracles. I guess that's the benefit of the 0-2 bracket.

I felt like I played well all day except for the last round. Of my losses one is just a horrible matchup (and so niche as to not be worth planning for), one came down to a top deck, and one I will chalk up to a sleep deprived brain fart.

Bob was the all star for the day. I didn't see a lot of Sylvan, but when I did it was typically awesome. Both swords were good. Sometimes I'd like the Feast & Famine triggers, but Light & Shadow is great too. Protection from Swords to Plowshares is fantastic, the life gain often translates to extra cards w/ Bob and Sylvan, and getting a creature back is just drawing a card (and is really nice w/ utility guys like Pridemage and Ooze, though sometimes that trigger obviously does nothing).

I'm still happy with the list as it is.

Sometimes you just run into shit matchups and there's not much you can do. I wouldn't be too worried.

Against Delver, it depends on your build. I both like and dislike discard against them. You can't really board out removal or creatures, since that's your winning gameplan. Liliana can be really good, but is too far into the Daze/Pierce curve. I have 2 EE and 1 Ooze to bring in, so I'd likely swap out the 3 Liliana and keep the 5 pieces of 1-CMC discard in.

-Matt

Went 3-1 last night beating Infect, Enchantress and Sneak & Show and losing to Punishing Jund.

The Jund matchup was brutal, she won the roll and I mulled to 6, got Thoughtseized, then she had turn 2 Grove, which I wasted only for her to play a Bob and draw a Grove to it. In game 2 I made a misplay with my Sylvan and a Relic of Progenitus, stacking the cards incorrectly and she Seized away my SoFaF when I meant to draw a StP that would've at least bought me another turn against her board of Goyf, DRS, and BBE into Punishing Fire.

Speaking of Relic, I decided to play it over RiP because I felt it made Lingering Souls, Scooze and DRS better while still being a panic button against Goyf/Dredge/Reanimator. What is everyone's GY hate of choice? I like to have at least one Cage available as well as something that nukes GYs.

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Originally Posted by maharis

I've always been a little wary of going full-bore into Junk because I lack Goyfs, but I've been listening to Matt pumping Sylvan Library's tires for so long that I just decided to screw it and play a variation of his list. Tonight I took this to a 4-round tournament:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sylvan Library
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Sword of Feast & Famine

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Windswept Heath

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Krosan Grip
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Plague
1 Bitterblossom

.

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We play similar lists, I recommend trying out 1 GSZ and 1 Dryad Arbor over ooze #2 and wasteland #4. The GSZ can get your teegs post-board and gets arbor for cabal therapy shenanigans. Arbor can carry a sword if needed as well.

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Originally Posted by maharis

Speaking of Relic, I decided to play it over RiP because I felt it made Lingering Souls, Scooze and DRS better while still being a panic button against Goyf/Dredge/Reanimator. What is everyone's GY hate of choice? I like to have at least one Cage available as well as something that nukes GYs.

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I tend to run:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb


I often had a MD Bog with Knight, but at the moment it'll be cut; so I'm unsure if I'll be happy with my composition of just those next to DRS. Nihil Spellbomb >>>>> Relic of Progenitus IMO. The reasons being that it's live T1 and you don't have to hit yourself (which with running Goyf or KotR, you want them big); further you don't have to leave mana up to pop it; only to get the cantrip. I may add a pair of Surgicals, but I don't know. Relic/RiP are for non-Goyf/DRS decks for the most part.

I will say that if you ran a Loam or two in the side you'd have a much better game against Jund. They're so mana heavy (Pfire, BBE, Lily, Hymn) that locking them out is cake. Also, Lingering Souls is quite amazing against Pfire (simply because it takes so much effort to remove.)

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Originally Posted by tescrin

I tend to run:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb


I often had a MD Bog with Knight, but at the moment it'll be cut; so I'm unsure if I'll be happy with my composition of just those next to DRS. Nihil Spellbomb >>>>> Relic of Progenitus IMO. The reasons being that it's live T1 and you don't have to hit yourself (which with running Goyf or KotR, you want them big); further you don't have to leave mana up to pop it; only to get the cantrip. I may add a pair of Surgicals, but I don't know. Relic/RiP are for non-Goyf/DRS decks for the most part.

I will say that if you ran a Loam or two in the side you'd have a much better game against Jund. They're so mana heavy (Pfire, BBE, Lily, Hymn) that locking them out is cake. Also, Lingering Souls is quite amazing against Pfire (simply because it takes so much effort to remove.)

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I think your best hate is either Cage because it also has splash hate against Elves, or Nihil Spellbomb. Spellbomb is active on Turn 1, and can cantrip if you need it to. Not nuking all graveyards with Relic is a good thing too. Since we have Deathrites, we can pick away at certain targets and use Spellbomb as a panic button if we need to.

Punishing Jund is one of the worse midrange matchups, since they're more midrange than we are. Ideally you stick a Feast and Famine and go to town, but the other way is Lingering Souls. Loam is a good addition for sure. I basically never lost a non-Punishing match, but Punishing it a tough grind. You hope your equipment carries you through, and you hope to maybe catch their P. Fires with Deathrites and/or Oozes. BBE is also a huge beating. To realistically win this matchup a lot, you'd need Thrun/Obstinate Baloth/more Oozes/Sylvan Safekeeper. I bring in Meddling Mages to name Punishing Fire since if they have to waste a removal on a Mage, then job well done.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Anyway, wins against D&T, Storm, and a red Stompy deck; loss against Burg Delver.

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You forgot to mention that you lost to a Golgari Charm in response to your EE activation :D

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Against Delver, it depends on your build. I both like and dislike discard against them. You can't really board out removal or creatures, since that's your winning gameplan. Liliana can be really good, but is too far into the Daze/Pierce curve. I have 2 EE and 1 Ooze to bring in, so I'd likely swap out the 3 Liliana and keep the 5 pieces of 1-CMC discard in.

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I don't like cutting Liliana against the non-Stifle Delver variants. We can't really afford to leave in Pierce against a deck with so many creatures and removal that is either A. 1 CMC or B. uncounterable. I would at least try to leave as many copies in as possible in on the play, since we're cutting 2-4 Dazes and (probably) all of the Pierces.

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Originally Posted by Kael

You forgot to mention that you lost to a Golgari Charm in response to your EE activation :D



I don't like cutting Liliana against the non-Stifle Delver variants. We can't really afford to leave in Pierce against a deck with so many creatures and removal that is either A. 1 CMC or B. uncounterable. I would at least try to leave as many copies in as possible in on the play, since we're cutting 2-4 Dazes and (probably) all of the Pierces.

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Is this the general consensus for Delver.dec against Junk? You'll trim the counters for G2/3? The times I have to face off against Delver I cry unless I can open with a hand that's just constant removal. I would personally keep the Lilianas in because she's got no downside. She's removal against a threat-light deck, discard against any CA/sculpting, and can seal the game with her ult.

I just asked this in the DGA thread -- how good is Lingering Souls against Delver decks? I'm of the impression they are too slow. The card advantage is there, but with a deck packed full of pierce, daze, force plus burn (god forbid forked bolt), I can't see myself rely on that card for the match. I'd probably push KotR since she's got a thick juicy tushie + can dig DD/Stage/wasteland. I've played a few games of Junk vs Delver and if I need to bank on LS I'm in a world of hurt. Then decks like BUG pack DRS to eat the souls straight up.

@Kael
I almost went into the Highlights of the MUs as the tourny was full of them (RiP + Sanctity, topdeck EE on Storm goblins, Forest + Swamp against blood moon every game, EE into charm..)

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Originally Posted by Warden

-I would personally keep the Lilianas in because she's got no downside.
-Is this the general consensus for Delver.dec against Junk? You'll trim the counters for G2/3?
-how good is Lingering Souls against Delver decks?

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I keep Lily but she is a bit slow and can't hit what you want against a threat heavy board. Since I run 4 I could see potentially cutting 2 for more efficient removal. I'd probably cut this before discard the next time, depending on the delver variant. Her downside is that she costs 3 and her Edict is stifle-able.

They cut counters because Decay and DRS make them pretty garbage. If they have Snare they'll use it of course.
Also, Daze can be awkward tempo wise if you have a hand with 2-drops as they can actually lose tempo on a bad Daze.

Lingering Souls is slow-ish, but it's resilient to discard (Team America) and it's obnoxious for them to counter. See the Daze problem above. Blocking Delver (or killing it) can be pretty relevant. It's noteworthy that Lingering Souls is also basically removal for Delver itself and if it's not, it races pretty well and stalls goyf for a long time.
Also, why did you let a DRS live?

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Originally Posted by Warden

Is this the general consensus for Delver.dec against Junk? You'll trim the counters for G2/3? The times I have to face off against Delver I cry unless I can open with a hand that's just constant removal. I would personally keep the Lilianas in because she's got no downside. She's removal against a threat-light deck, discard against any CA/sculpting, and can seal the game with her ult.

I just asked this in the DGA thread -- how good is Lingering Souls against Delver decks? I'm of the impression they are too slow. The card advantage is there, but with a deck packed full of pierce, daze, force plus burn (god forbid forked bolt), I can't see myself rely on that card for the match. I'd probably push KotR since she's got a thick juicy tushie + can dig DD/Stage/wasteland. I've played a few games of Junk vs Delver and if I need to bank on LS I'm in a world of hurt. Then decks like BUG pack DRS to eat the souls straight up.

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Souls is a good bait for Pierce/Daze if nothing else, and it will seal games. Being able to deal with Delver or chump block Goyfs is a big deal. As well, it's another creature to carry Equipment. I usually leave them in, but I agree, they don't always resolve.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Warden

Is this the general consensus for Delver.dec against Junk? You'll trim the counters for G2/3? The times I have to face off against Delver I cry unless I can open with a hand that's just constant removal. I would personally keep the Lilianas in because she's got no downside. She's removal against a threat-light deck, discard against any CA/sculpting, and can seal the game with her ult.

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Pierce doesn't hit Decay, and you can usually hold on long enough to resolve a Plow through a Pierce anyways. I might keep in a few on the draw just to stop Lili/Equipment, but it's one of the worst cards in the matchup.

I'm not really sure if there's any sort of consensus on how to board though, given how much Junk lists tend to vary.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

...Lingering Souls is slow-ish, but it's resilient to discard (Team America) and it's obnoxious for them to counter. See the Daze problem above. Blocking Delver (or killing it) can be pretty relevant. It's noteworthy that Lingering Souls is also basically removal for Delver itself and if it's not, it races pretty well and stalls goyf for a long time.
Also, why did you let a DRS live?

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^^ Sometimes I got to deal with a flipped Delver into DRS and only have 1 bullet in the chamber. One beats like a truck. The other is all around powerful. I usually go after their 1cc drop immediately but have lacked removal in the past. BUG is particularly annoying if they make you discard your answers and plop a DRS to boot.

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Originally Posted by Warden

^^ Sometimes I got to deal with a flipped Delver into DRS and only have 1 bullet in the chamber. One beats like a truck. The other is all around powerful. I usually go after their 1cc drop immediately but have lacked removal in the past. BUG is particularly annoying if they make you discard your answers and plop a DRS to boot.

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In our hypothetical we have Lingering Souls I think, so I'd definitely take the extra two from a pair of delver swings over letting DRS eat my out to Delver; if that makes sense. Of course, if all you had was plow and you plow'd the first guy; variance! :D

Abzan Charm WBG
Instant [Uncommon]

Choose one:

Exile target creature with power 3 or greater.

You draw two cards and you lose 2 life.

Distribute two +1/+1 counters among one or two target creatures.


Basically a two-mode spell at best. I can see it in some metas because it kills opposing Delvers and Goyfs or digs for answers against some combo decks. But maybe a one- or two-of at most. Costing the same as Souls or LotV is rough, as is essentially not having a third mode.

I don't know, combat tricks aren't irrelevant; it's just they've never been on a useful modal spell outside of something like Funeral Charm or Lightning Bolt + fire strike.

Removal + card draw + falcon-punch a thalia, seems ok.

The real issue with the card is something along the lines of "Would you run this over Liliana? Lingering Souls? Vindicate? Library/SDT?"
And for Liliana.. it could be a maybe. The ability to not only cycle your removal but to draw with it could allow us to overload on removal slots to contain opposing decks and then find threats.

I could see people trying it as a 1-2 of until they figure out if it actually works or not.