[Deck] GW/x Maverick

BBD plays this list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=87967

vs.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=68903

BDD loses 1:4

Deathblade with four TNN is definitely not an easy matchup and Maverick playing without a Stoneforge Package and Sylvan Library doesn't make it easier. I'm also questioning playing 3 lands which are bad in the opening hand (Stage, Depths, Bojuka Bog).
And I don't get the inclusion of Courser of Kruphix, who sees some hype lately. Is he really worth the slot? I mean he doesn't have that high impact other cards like Sylvan Library, Stoneforge Mystic, etc. have though I see the advantage playing him/her vs. aggressive decks (which are not so bad matchups anyway).

Pro's are typically good at playing technically good Magic, but format knowledge is always lacking compared to the "pro's" of the format. Pro players are always going to gravitate towards objectively powerful decks, ex. Sneak and Show, because hopefully their play skill and the overall power of a list makes up for a lack of knowledge. That list is basically entirely wrong for the current meta, which is obviously shown by the fact it's from July, and the fact it's running 2 Jitte and no SFM (2010 tech).

With a proper list, you can do pretty okay, but 4 TNN isn't fun. That's why you run more Sylvan, SFM, and a shit ton of -1/-1.

4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Courser of Kruphix
24

2 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
15


3 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Horizon Canopy
22

SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Life from the Loam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Can't say for sure. If you want an evasive huge-dude; I'd go Sigarda, as much as I'm "meh" on it. If you *just* want evasion, you can go the Scryb Ranger route. Siege Rhino is a fine card it seems, but I feel like it's home is more in Nic Fit where it can be cast several times.

I often don't have an issue of requiring evasion to connect; either because the Sword I choose has the correct protection, Mom is there, or some other nuance. Another point is that you don't have to hit the player with Jitte, so Jitte tends to be my go to and the evasion matters little; since the CA generated by connecting is enough to seal the deal.

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What about Thrun? Seems BBD likes it enough to put it in his side.

I've got 1 flex slot in my list since I'm thinking of dropping Scryb Ranger.

Scryb's weakness is that it's easy to get rid of.
Sigarda is the best of the three but costs 6 if I want to green sun (and you tap out).
Thrun just has evasion so it's basically a sword wielder.

@sdematt:

Please tell me more about the Courser of Kruphix :) I'm still not convinced playing that guy, maybe I'm missing something :S

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fl0do

BBD plays this list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=87967

vs.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=68903

BDD loses 1:4

Deathblade with four TNN is definitely not an easy matchup and Maverick playing without a Stoneforge Package and Sylvan Library doesn't make it easier. I'm also questioning playing 3 lands which are bad in the opening hand (Stage, Depths, Bojuka Bog).
And I don't get the inclusion of Courser of Kruphix, who sees some hype lately. Is he really worth the slot? I mean he doesn't have that high impact other cards like Sylvan Library, Stoneforge Mystic, etc. have though I see the advantage playing him/her vs. aggressive decks (which are not so bad matchups anyway).

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His list, in my opinion, is bad. I hate the 4's, 2 Jittes dont make sense, and no Library makes no sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc

What about Thrun? Seems BBD likes it enough to put it in his side.

I've got 1 flex slot in my list since I'm thinking of dropping Scryb Ranger.

Scryb's weakness is that it's easy to get rid of.
Sigarda is the best of the three but costs 6 if I want to green sun (and you tap out).
Thrun just has evasion so it's basically a sword wielder.

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How many matches do you think BBD has with Maverick? Probably the one he played there. If you read the last 4-5 pages there was many people who have played the deck for years and regularly tune the deck discussing Sigarda V Thrun. I fall on the Sigarda Side of the argument cause I prefer flying and closing the game quickly in the matches she is good.

BBD is a fine magic player but I respect the posters in this thread (some of them, others are asshats) more then I value his opinion on a deck he probably has no intention in ever playing.

I've played Thrun in the past, don't like him.

He sounds ok on paper, but he's really only super good vs Miracles. If Miracles is a concern, we can just play more Teegs/Decays in the board, which are good against other things too.

Being 4 mana and only attacking for 4 is not what I'm looking for in legacy.

Zero Sylvans is punishable by death (or is it just punishable by the fact you lose a lot of matches, I know it's one of the two.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fl0do

Please tell me more about the Courser of Kruphix :) I'm still not convinced playing that guy, maybe I'm missing something :S

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• 4 Toughness is relevant vs. red bolt based removal
• The life gain plays nice with Knight to gain a non trivial amount to use for: Library, Horizon Canopy mana, Fetches, etc.
• It dying to "Enchantment" removal is not relevant game 1 most of the time, just dies to Abrupt Decay like everything else we run.
• If you run E. Tutor package out of the board you can find a creature with it.
• Card filtering and selection with shuffle effects like Knight, Fetches, GSZ.
• Ability to stretch lands even further being able to play them off the top deck to draw more action.
• With a S.Library in play you can look @ top 3, draw gas/action and leave a land on top. Play the land off the top for a "free" card draw instead of paying 4 for it.
• Almost all our stuff is Sorcery speed anyway, we can adapt plays with more knowledge of the next draw step.

Basically the grindy nature of the card is real nice. Playing it with Library only makes it stronger. I am still testing it online a bit but so far it has been nice if only to stretch land drops a bit on tight mana hands. Perfect example would be a mana dork with 1 Green source and a Wasteland. You can use Courser to help the "land light" hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oSeabass

• 4 Toughness is relevant vs. red bolt based removal
• The life gain plays nice with Knight to gain a non trivial amount to use for: Library, Horizon Canopy mana, Fetches, etc.
• It dying to "Enchantment" removal is not relevant game 1 most of the time, just dies to Abrupt Decay like everything else we run.
• If you run E. Tutor package out of the board you can find a creature with it.
• Card filtering and selection with shuffle effects like Knight, Fetches, GSZ.
• Ability to stretch lands even further being able to play them off the top deck to draw more action.
• With a S.Library in play you can look @ top 3, draw gas/action and leave a land on top. Play the land off the top for a "free" card draw instead of paying 4 for it.
• Almost all our stuff is Sorcery speed anyway, we can adapt plays with more knowledge of the next draw step.

Basically the grindy nature of the card is real nice. Playing it with Library only makes it stronger. I am still testing it online a bit but so far it has been nice if only to stretch land drops a bit on tight mana hands. Perfect example would be a mana dork with 1 Green source and a Wasteland. You can use Courser to help the "land light" hand.

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Thank you for concisely explaining why this card is the bomb. I don't understand why people stopped playing him. I debate about playing 2 in my list because that's how fucking insane he is. Blocks half the threats you'd see and nets you cards + life while being zenith- and e.tutor-able.

I want to start out by again saying thank you to everyone in this thread. Everyone has helped a lot with their thoughts/opinions on Maverick.

I haven't played Maverick in a while. I switched to Pox for some time, but I'll be dusting off Maverick and playing it at a LGS this Saturday.


Here's the list I'll be playing:

Land (23)
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Plains
1x Rogue's Passage (Interested in seeing how this works out)
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath

Instant (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (4)
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantment (2)
2x Sylvan Library

Creature (24)
3x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Mother of Runes
2x Noble Hierarch
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth (In mock games, and at the right time, I've been able to get 2-4 tokens generated at the "right time)

Artifact (3)
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Umezawa's Jitte


Sideboard (15)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Choke
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Krosan Grip
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons (Probably will be taking the slot of Titania when put into the MB)
2x Zealous Persecution


Questions? Comments?

Looks good, Nik842. I've wanted to try Safekeeper + Titani, haven't made time to do it yet (maybe this weekend).

The two things that jump out at me are only 2x Thalia, and only 7 fetches. I fully realize that when you add cool cards, something's gotta go, but when I play Maverick, I am looking for Thalia on turn 2 in the vast majority of my games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warden

Thank you for concisely explaining why this card is the bomb. I don't understand why people stopped playing him. I debate about playing 2 in my list because that's how fucking insane he is. Blocks half the threats you'd see and nets you cards + life while being zenith- and e.tutor-able.

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hes ok, really what ends up happening is that you have better cards to play unless you are trying to generate card advantage over a longer game. He has no immediate impact on the field. He's not a threat and only blocks. The card advantage he generates is nice but slow so its really only useful in games that last longer. Since he doesn't let you play extra lands it kinda sucks, but he is a decent 1 of. Good for having him as a GSZ target but more than 1 isn't great.

He has to be better than whatever you are cutting for him and he won't be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warden

Thank you for concisely explaining why this card is the bomb. I don't understand why people stopped playing him. I debate about playing 2 in my list because that's how fucking insane he is. Blocks half the threats you'd see and nets you cards + life while being zenith- and e.tutor-able.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by apple713

hes ok, really what ends up happening is that you have better cards to play unless you are trying to generate card advantage over a longer game. He has no immediate impact on the field. He's not a threat and only blocks. The card advantage he generates is nice but slow so its really only useful in games that last longer. Since he doesn't let you play extra lands it kinda sucks, but he is a decent 1 of. Good for having him as a GSZ target but more than 1 isn't great.

He has to be better than whatever you are cutting for him and he won't be.

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Ok, Courser has some uses, but I really don't think he is good enough. Like apple713 stated, there are better cards to play. Our creatures are divided into acceleration, disruption and threats supplemented by GSZ to find them more reliably. Courser is neither acceleration nor disruption nor a real threat (Scavenging Ooze, Stoneforge Mystic and Knight of the Reliquary dominate the board once active), it rather falls into the category of cardselection/cardadvantage where it rivals with Equipment and especially with Sylvan Library. But Sylvan Library is just miles better, because it is less vulnerable, cheaper to cast and provides better cardadvantage. Equipment on the other hand is a threat with every creature and fetchland (Dryad Arbor) and provides better cardadvantage too.

Regarding oSeabass' points:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oSeabass

• 4 Toughness is relevant vs. red bolt based removal
  - Usually Knight, Equipment, Scavenging Ooze or the sheer mass of threats we play should account that, usually it's mass removal I don't want to see. Sylvan Library being not a creature is relevant vs. Swords to Plowshares, especially in the matchups where I want to see cardadvantage tools! ;)
• The life gain plays nice with Knight to gain a non trivial amount to use for: Library, Horizon Canopy mana, Fetches, etc.
  - I really didn't that much life gain out of the usual life gain from Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze and Equipment, thought playing Sword of Light and Shadow helps.
• It dying to "Enchantment" removal is not relevant game 1 most of the time, just dies to Abrupt Decay like everything else we run.
  True.
• If you run E. Tutor package out of the board you can find a creature with it.
  - I still think running a Enlightened Tutor package is worse compared to a conventional sideboard.
• Card filtering and selection with shuffle effects like Knight, Fetches, GSZ.
  - Sylvan Library does the same and is better.
• Ability to stretch lands even further being able to play them off the top deck to draw more action.
  - Is there a significant better chance to draw more action? Fetchlands are not played to thin out the deck, neither should Courser be played for that purpose.
• With a S.Library in play you can look @ top 3, draw gas/action and leave a land on top. Play the land off the top for a "free" card draw instead of paying 4 for it.
  - Digging for 3 cards is just better than playing a land of the top.
• Almost all our stuff is Sorcery speed anyway, we can adapt plays with more knowledge of the next draw step.
  - My playstyle with Maverick has always to do "with playing to your out", which means I'm always playing with topdecking a certain card in mind and make my plays according to that. Knowing the top card of your library helps a bit, but isn't necessary and I don't want to give my opponen this information, I want to give my opponent as little information as possible.

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All in all I can definitely see the benefits of playing Courser, but other cards are better and should be considered first. I also want to mention that my approach to building a list is very conservative, I don't want any cute things and my list is aiming to execute the game plan in every game as often as possible (it's like Einherjer's approach for building Ponder-Miracles). Since then, my win rate got significantly better and that's the reason why I'm critical to odd choices like Courser of Kruphix, etc.
So, no offense, just my reasoning :)

And I apologize for my english being a bit clumsy, I'm not a native speaker and bigger amounts of text are not part of my daily routine :P ;)

greetings, Fl0do

Something to keep in mind - no one here is suggesting cutting Library for Courser. Rather, Courser happens to be relevant as a 1-of in a wide variety of matches. Lifegain+CA+4 toughness in one body is not bad.

I'm not saying that Sylvan Library gets cut for a Courser, sorry if my post is misleading regarding that. I'm saying that other cards should be considered first.

On the other hand I saw lists cutting a Knight, the second Library or trimming the Stoneforge package for a Courser Kruphix which are generally better than a Courser.

Courser is insane with Library and so many shuffle effects. I win more games by grinding out advantage with Courser then casting Squire.


I have fat fingers and I am posting from my iPhone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jon

Courser is insane with Library and so many shuffle effects. I win more games by grinding out advantage with Courser then casting Squire.

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This has been true for me as well. It's far more useful against Burn for instance than Knight is. Big booty, life gain, and removing topdeck lands are huge for this deck when combined in one package.

I added courser to the deck when "Cruise Fueled" UR Delver was all the rage. It was amazing in that match-up! During that meta, there was no way I would consider cutting him.

I'm sitting in the hotel room outside of SCG St. Louis trying to finalize my 75, and whether or not to include courser is my HARDEST decision.

Pros
He is good against any fair deck (though like somebody pointed out- not a bomb). The life gain often gives you just what you need in order to stabilize against Delver
Laughs at lightning bolt
Prevents flood
Gives real card selection

Cons
Does not win the game
Surprisingly, not great against burn due to "Price of Progress"
Provides no disruption- this means its bad against combo. Like, the worst.

I always used to play a 3rd pridemage in the main (In those days, Stoneforge was a lot more popular...). Lately I've been considering a few things: 1) Playing a 3rd Stoneforge- and if I did that, I may play Batterskull over Light and Shadow. 2) 3rd Pridemage 3) 2nd Ooze 4) Move Abrupt Decay to main 5) Move Thoughtseize to the main

Either way- don't play bad cards! Anything that requires a certain situation to be good, is actually bad.

If someone tests Courser and he works well, do play him. I'm just having a hard time understanding why he would be. Maybe additional life gain, a good blocker and improved card draws are just what the deck needs.

I tend to play Courser in decks like Sylvan Plug and Nic Fit since you get some help progressing the early game to the late game by life gain, blocking and additional lands. He also helps filter for the relatively few game winning cards these decks have. He fits perfectly with the strategy of these decks.

My approach for playing Maverick is to create a mana repressive environment through Thalia/Wasteland/KotR and being able to operate more efficiently than the opponent in this environment. The latter is achieved by using mana creatures for acceleration and Gaea's Cradle to power out stronger threats than the opponent such as equipments, KotR or the single Sigarda/Titania, generally costing 3-4 mana [edit: obviously Courser doesnt do much to help achieve any of this]. I'd rather experiment with another hatebear, another equipment, a Life from the Loam (which potentially enables repeated Wastelands) or some other threat or mana denial.

In practice I think I've been playing an extra Abrupt Decay over a Courser, I'm playing in a very fair meta and like being able to get rid of Chalice, Counterbalance, Vial, Liliana, Goyf, Pyromancer and equipments. In a more combo oriented meta I think I'd try to add some hatebear or discard to interact with the top combo decks. Maybe a Wingmare if playing 4 Thalias... A second copy of Sylvan is also very valuable. [Edit: Maybe a Revoker since he's good vs both Storm and Sneak and Show. I have maindecked a Canonist during the Omnishow era.]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by THerzog41

I always used to play a 3rd pridemage in the main (In those days, Stoneforge was a lot more popular...). Lately I've been considering a few things: 1) Playing a 3rd Stoneforge- and if I did that, I may play Batterskull over Light and Shadow. 2) 3rd Pridemage 3) 2nd Ooze 4) Move Abrupt Decay to main 5) Move Thoughtseize to the main

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You are the master, and whatever you choose will probably be correct, but I advocate ooze because BUG (both tempo and midrange/control) and RUG tempo will be back again. Ooze is also pretty good against the new Pyromancer/Angler decks as well. We are the deck that uses the ooze to its full potential. I could see justifying another choice too though.

@Ironclad I appreciate the support, however, I am I mere mortal whom the GW Gods (Karametra?) have given favor. Are BUG and RUG really expected to be big? I know BUG cascade has done well lately, but I haven't seen a lot of Delver. Either way, I do like Ooze a lot... Besides beasting goyfs, a second Ooze would help a lot against Lands.

The pro that nobody has mentioned about Courser is that it adds another dimension. Not that I think the "Hate" people bring for Maverick is good, but it is nice to have something that doesn't use the GY or an equipment.