4 Card Blind

6. FTW: Bottomless Vault, Unmask, The Eldest Reborn, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath

I had this deck in my gauntlet for a few rounds and finally decided to play it. It straddles between WL vs T1 decks and grinding against disruptive decks. It also dodges Mental Misstep, soft counters, and "discard 2"s. In most matches it's 3CB with Unmask taking #1 threat and hoping a turn 7 5/5 flyer stabilizes. Eldest Reborn is a trump card vs enemy discard/removal, because I can lose Ob Nix but still remove their threat and get mine back.

1. Asthereal (TO): Unmask (exile Eldest) takes Trophy. Treetop Village starts attacking T4, so T7 5/5 flying is fast enough to stabilize. WW 6-0
2. Reeplcheep: Raven's Crime discards 2 cards (Ob Nix, Unmask). I play T7 Eldest Reborn, killing the Wolf just in time, then I get back Ob Nix. WW 6-0

3. dte: OTP Unmask (exile Eldest) takes Mana Vault, then Ob Nixilis wins. Would love to steal your Karn instead, but I must prevent Dust Bowl.
OTD you play T1 Vault -> Key -> Karn to play around discard, then Dust Bowl stops me. WL 3-3

4. Phasmoid: Unmask (exile Eldest) takes Reality Acid. Stylus+Desert is a 20 turn clock, so T7 Ob Nixilis is fast enough. WW 6-0
5. GoblinSmashmaster: OTP Unmask (exile Ob Nixilis!) takes Vraska, then Eldest Reborn steals her. OTD T1 Vraska is too fast (1+3+5+7+9=25 by turn 6). WL 3-3
7. alphastryk: Unmask (exile Eldest) takes Lush Growth before I play my land. Zendikon wins on T11, so T7 5/5 flying is fast enough to stabilize. WW 6-0
8. RoosterCocoa: OTP Unmask (exile Eldest) takes Court. OTD I am way too slow to get the Monarch and lose to 4/4s. WL 3-3
9. maxx!: OTP Unmask (exile Ob Nixilis!) takes Garruk, then Eldest Reborn steals him. OTD T1 Garruk is too fast for me. WL 3-3

10. silkster: OTP Unmask (exile Eldest) takes Rhonas's Last Stand, then T8 Ob Nixilis plays around Stubborn Denial.
Edit: OTD you can play T1 Island to hold up Stubborn Denial vs Unmask. That means you can only play T3 Rhonas. That's still faster than I can pay the 1, so I T2 Unmask forcing out Stubborn Denial. You get T3 5/4. I would get T7 interaction, but you win on your turn 7, so I am 1 turn too slow to stabilize. WL 3-3

39 points (13 wins, 5 loss)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FTW

6. FTW: Bottomless Vault, Unmask, The Eldest Reborn, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath

4. Phasmoid: Unmask (exile Eldest) takes Reality Acid. Stylus+Desert is a 20 turn clock, so T7 Ob Nixilis is fast enough. WW 6-0

---

Does he not use Stylus to get back Acid? That's kind of the point of his deck. :wink:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asthereal

Asthereal's scores for round hey we forgot about an interaction spell that might be relevant, so let's just try that.

1. Asthereal (TO): Golgari Rot Farm, Treetop Village, Assassin's Trophy, Mental Misstep <-me
8. RoosterCocoa: Tolarian Academy, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Court of Grace DL
Misstep can't touch your stuff. OTP I can Trophy the Court after it has only made 4 1/1 guys, who I can then block succesfully with my Village for a draw. OTD you get 8 guys and that's too much.

---

Not only are the tokens flying (can't block with Treetop), but they're 4/4s not 4 1/1s! The first 4/4 flyer is enough to win.

I thought Mental Misstep was unplayable until we banned all Moxes and Sol Lands. I considered playing it this round, but I thought this might be the Lotus Petal round so I went with another anti-combo spell instead. It looks like Mental Misstep was a good choice too!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asthereal

Does he not use Stylus to get back Acid? That's kind of the point of his deck. :wink:

---

Stylus targets permanents, not cards in graveyards.

1. Asthereal (TO): Golgari Rot Farm, Treetop Village, Assassin's Trophy, Mental Misstep
0-6. I was hoping misstep would not be played too much. I was very wrong there.

2. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Golgari Rot Farm, Ranger Class, Raven’s Crime
3-3. Two discards beat me OTD.
3

3. dte: Mana vault, Karn, Scion of Urza, Manifold Key, Dust bowl
Me, playing the last Karn.

4. Phasmoid: Sunscorched Desert, Tel-Jilad Stylus, Izzet Boilerworks, Reality Acid
6-0. I am too fast for what you do being relevant. Plus, you have to prevent my T3 LD.
9
Edit:3-3

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Khalni Garden, Lotus Petal, Culling the Weak, Vraska, Swarm's Eminence
6-0. I go bigger, and you can only do two tokens.
15

6. FTW: Bottomless Vault, Unmask, The Eldest Reborn, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
3-3. Unmask kills me.
18

7. alphastryk: Mental Misstep, Botanical Sanctum, Wind Zendikon, Lush Growth
0-6, MM
18

8. RoosterCocoa: Tolarian Academy, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Court of Grace
3-3. OTP I win. OTD:
T1 court, T1 Karn, token.
T2 4/4 flyer, second token, untap vault and attack you --> trade.
T3 4/4 flyer, I +1 Karn, make the token unblockable and take the monarch
T4 1/1, kill Karn. --> I lose.
21

9. maxx!: Sheltered Valley, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, Garruk Relentless
6-0, Karn >> Garruk, particularly with the key.
27

10. silkster: Hickory Woodlot, Island, Rhonas's Last Stand, Stubborn Denial
3-3, stubborn denial gets me.
30.
Edit: 27

I made a last minute change from Foundry of the Consuls to dust bowl, that was a very bad idea. But not as bas as ignoring mental misstep :)
I should have cut down on the cuteness and play two mana vaults + artifact land to play around MM and stubborn denial, would have been a much better idea, would have made 48/54 instead.

My deck for last week was a 2* vault deck:
Sunscorched Desert, Mana vault, Mana vault, Lich's Mirror
Not a great deck, but the pseudo backbuild ring of it is fun for me :)

2. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Golgari Rot Farm, Ranger Class, Raven’s Crime
I took a pauper deck and added the best unbanned threat from last round.

1. Asthereal (TO): Golgari Rot Farm, Treetop Village, Assassin's Trophy, Mental Misstep
Disagreement, I can float a black and retrace ravens crime on T2. WD 4-1

3. dte: Mana vault, Karn, Scion of Urza, Manifold Key, Dust bowl
OTP i make you discard your key the. Karn. You can then sacrifice everything to kill my land, but then you would die to your vault. OTD I can’t keep up with t1 karn. WL 3-3.

4. Phasmoid: Sunscorched Desert, Tel-Jilad Stylus, Izzet Boilerworks, Reality Acid
Cards in the gy aren’t permanents luckily. WW 6-0

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Khalni Garden, Lotus Petal, Culling the Weak, Vraska, Swarm's Eminence
Another t1 deck that needs all of its cards. WL 3-3


6. FTW: Bottomless Vault, Unmask, The Eldest Reborn, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
LL 0-6 either of your threats beats mine.

7. alphastryk: Mental Misstep, Botanical Sanctum, Wind Zendikon, Lush Growth
My swamp trades for lush growth and misstep one way or another. And my threat beats yours. WW 6-0

8. RoosterCocoa: Tolarian Academy, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Court of Grace
Another t1 deck that needs all of its cards. WL 3-3

9. maxx!: Sheltered Valley, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, Garruk Relentless
Another t1 deck that needs all of its cards. WL 3-3

10. silkster: Hickory Woodlot, Island, Rhonas's Last Stand, Stubborn Denial
Our interaction and basics always trade. OTP I would have time to stabilize if you raced. OTD I don’t. DL 1-4.

9 W 2D 7L for 29/54

4. me: ​ ​ ​ Sunscorched Desert ​ , ​ Tel-Jilad Stylus ​ , ​ Izzet Boilerworks ​ , ​ Reality Acid




1. Asthereal (TO): Golgari Rot Farm, Treetop Village, Assassin's Trophy, Mental Misstep ​ DL 1-4


when I am OTD:
Mental Misstep counters Tel-Jilad Stylus, Izzet Boilerworks gets turned into a
Trophy before I can cast Reality Acid, and then I lose to your Treetop Village.

when I am OTP:
Mental Misstep can counter Tel-Jilad Stylus, which stops me from winning.
I cast Reality Acid on Golgari Rot Farm before the latter untaps. ​ Turning the
Acid into a Trophy only _speeds up_ the Rot Farm's sacrifice, so Treetop Village
gets only 2 attacks before it can no longer animate. ​ That stops you from winning.



2. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Golgari Rot Farm, Ranger Class, Raven’s Crime ​ LL 0-6

Double-discard before my T3 stops me from casting Reality Acid, and the Wolf races Desert+Stylus.



3. dte: Mana vault, Karn, Scion of Urza, Manifold Key, Dust bowl ​ WL 3-3


when I am OTD:
On T1, you cast all 3 of your spells, and create a token. ​ (I previously missed that you could
cast Karn on T1, and then saw RC's reply to me pointing it out.) ​ On T2, you create another token,
attack me for 4, and untap Mana Vault. ​ Your tokens would win for you much faster than you'd lose
to Desert+Vault, so I must cast Reality Acid at some point. ​ You untap before I can do that, so
Dust Bowl stops me from recurring Reality Acid. ​ Even if it could make you sacrifice _both_ Karn
and 1 of your artifacts, I would still lose on T8, before you could possibly lose to Desert+Vault.

when I am OTP:
If you try to destroy one of my lands before my T3, then I save it with Stylus. ​ Unless I'm still
missing some sequence for you, that would prevent you from ever casting Karn, in which case you
lose to Desert+Stylus+Vault. ​ (Or at least to Desert+Stylus, even if I'm missing some way for that
to not leave your Vault forever tapped.) ​ On T1, you cast all 3 of your spells, and create a token.
(I previously missed that you could cast Karn on T1, and then saw RC's reply to me pointing it out.)
On T2, you create another token, attack me for 4, and untap Mana Vault.
On my T3, Stylish Acid makes you sacrifice Mana Vault,
shutting down your LD and making your tokens ​ ​ ​ 3/3 s ​ .
Your T3 starts with Karn at 1 loyalty, so you +1 him and attack me for 6, leaving me with 10 life.
On my next 3 turns, Stylish Acid makes you sacrifice Karn followed by both tokens,
with me taking only 6+2 more damage. ​ After that, you lose to Desert+Stylus.



4. Phasmoid: Sunscorched Desert, Tel-Jilad Stylus, Izzet Boilerworks, Reality Acid

This is me.


5. GoblinSmashmaster: Khalni Garden, Lotus Petal, Culling the Weak, Vraska, Swarm's Eminence ​ WW 6-0

Even when I am OTD, I take only 6 damage before your
tokens get sacrificed, and then Desert+Stylus wins for me.


6. FTW: Bottomless Vault, Unmask, The Eldest Reborn, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath ​ LL 0-6

You exile The Eldest Reborn to Unmask my Reality Acid, and then Ob Nixilis races Desert+Stylus.


7. alphastryk: Mental Misstep, Botanical Sanctum, Wind Zendikon, Lush Growth ​ LL 0-6

Mental Mistep counters Tel-Jilad Stylus, Lush Growth stops me from
casting Reality Acid, and then Wind Zendikon races Desert+Stylus.


8. RoosterCocoa: Tolarian Academy, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Court of Grace ​ WW 6-0

Even when I am OTD, I still have 4 life left when you've sacrificed
Court of Grace and both Angels, after which Desert+Stylus wins for me.


9. maxx!: Sheltered Valley, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, Garruk Relentless ​ WW 6-0

Even when I am OTD, I still have 8 life left when you've sacrificed
Garruk and all 3 Wolves, after which Desert+Stylus wins for me.


10. silkster: Hickory Woodlot, Island, Rhonas's Last Stand, Stubborn Denial ​ LL 0-6

You make a Last Stand on T2, and Stubbornly Deny my Reality Acid,
after which your Snake races Desert+Stylus.




4 LL ​ + ​ 1 DL ​ + ​ 1 WL ​ + ​ 3 WW ​ ​ ​ = ​ ​ ​ 22 points

8. RoosterCocoa: Tolarian Academy, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Court of Grace

1. Asthereal (TO): Golgari Rot Farm, Treetop Village, Assassin's Trophy, Mental Misstep
Mental misstep does nothing and I have at least 1 4/4 before you can play Assassin's Trophy, so I win. WW

2. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Golgari Rot Farm, Ranger Class, Raven’s Crime
You can't beat Court of Grace if it actually resolves, but I can't beat turn 1 discard. WL

3. dte: Mana vault, Karn, Scion of Urza, Manifold Key, Dust bowl
I think dte's logic looked correct. WL

4. Phasmoid: Sunscorched Desert, Tel-Jilad Stylus, Izzet Boilerworks, Reality Acid
OTP I play Court of Grace on turn 1. You play Desert and Stylus on your turn. On my turn 2 I get a 4/4, on your turn you player Boilerworks. On my turn 3 I get a second 4/4 and attack you to 16. On your turn you kill Court of Grace with Reality Acid. On my next turn I attack you to 8. On your turn you kill one of my 4/4s. On my next turn I attack you to 4, and on your next turn you kill my final 4/4, leaving me with nothing. LL

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Khalni Garden, Lotus Petal, Culling the Weak, Vraska, Swarm's Eminence
You can only get 2 1/1, whereas I get a token every turn. WW

6. FTW: Bottomless Vault, Unmask, The Eldest Reborn, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
You can't beat Court of Grace if it resolves, but I can't beat turn 1 discard. WL

7. alphastryk: Mental Misstep, Botanical Sanctum, Wind Zendikon, Lush Growth
Mental Misstep and Lush Growth do nothing, and I can beat a 2/2. WW

9. maxx!: Sheltered Valley, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, Garruk Relentless
OTP I get a 4/4 with flying before you can attack with your first 2/2, so you can't stop me from killing Garruk on my next turn and winning with my tokens. OTD I can kill Garruk with 1/1s, but it is too slow so I lose to your 2/2s. WL

10. silkster: Hickory Woodlot, Island, Rhonas's Last Stand, Stubborn Denial
You can't beat Court of Grace if it resolves, but I can't beat Stubborn Denial if you have the mana for it. WL

11W 0D 7L = 33

It was a good week to play a turn 1 deck that dodges mental misstep.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phasmoid

3. dte: Mana vault, Karn, Scion of Urza, Manifold Key, Dust bowl ​ WW 6-0


when I am OTP, even if Manifold Key's casting cost was {0}:
You can't cast Karn on T1. ​

---

I think that dte can cast Karn on turn 1. dte plays Dust Bowl, and uses that to cast Mana Vault. dte then taps Mana Vault for 3 mana, and uses 1 to cast Manifold Key. dte then uses another mana, leaving 1 floating, to untap Mana Vault. Mana Vault can then be tapped for 3 more mana, meaning dte has 4 mana total, so Karn can be cast right away.

Sheltered Valley, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, Garruk Relentless

1. Asthereal (TO): Golgari Rot Farm, Treetop Village, Assassin's Trophy, Mental Misstep
Misstep counters Vault. 0-6

2. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Golgari Rot Farm, Ranger Class, Raven’s Crime
OTP Garruk lands and makes a wolf, then fights your Ranger Class whenever you play it. OTD Crime makes me discard and I need all 4. 3-3

3. dte: Mana vault, Karn, Scion of Urza, Manifold Key, Dust bowl
The sort-of-mirror. The first Construct you make will only be a 2/2, so Garruk can fight it and live right away. You can make more Constructs after that, but you have to spend 2/3 of your turns adding loyalty, while flipped Garruk can just +1 to make a deathtouch token forever. Eventually I should overwhelm you. 6-0
I missed that Manifold Key can force a Construct through to kill Garruk. Nevermind. 0-6

4. Phasmoid: Sunscorched Desert, Tel-Jilad Stylus, Izzet Boilerworks, Reality Acid
You can start destroying permanents on your turn 3, so I think you're probably fast enough, but I should check.

OTP
T1 Garruk, make Wolf (1W) / Stylus
T2 Make Wolf (2W), attack (18) / Boilerworks
T3 Make Wolf (3W), attack (14) / Acid Garruk
T4 Attack (8) / Acid a Wolf (2W)
T5 Attack (4) / Acid a Wolf (1W)
T6 Attack (2) / Acid a Wolf (0W)

0-6

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Khalni Garden, Lotus Petal, Culling the Weak, Vraska, Swarm's Eminence
The other sort-of-mirror. I just make a Wolf every turn and you run out of loyalty eventually. 6-0

6. FTW: Bottomless Vault, Unmask, The Eldest Reborn, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
OTP I kill a goldfish on turn 5, so you're too slow to stop me. OTD Unmask takes anything and I lose. 3-3

7. alphastryk: Mental Misstep, Botanical Sanctum, Wind Zendikon, Lush Growth
Misstep counters Vault. 0-6

8. RoosterCocoa: Tolarian Academy, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Court of Grace
OTP I can stop you from being the Monarch, but your tokens fly and they can kill Garruk. I can't stop your token machine and you can stop mine. 0-6

9. maxx!: Sheltered Valley, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, Garruk Relentless
This is me :]

10. silkster: Hickory Woodlot, Island, Rhonas's Last Stand, Stubborn Denial
OTP I make my walker and easily beat your 5/4. OTD I can't play around Stubborn Denial without losing my Lotus Petal. 3-3

0+3+0+0+6+3+0+0+3 = 15

My heart was in the right place (considering dte's performance) but I picked the wrong threat. Oh well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoosterCocoa

I think that dte can cast Karn on turn 1. dte plays Dust Bowl, and uses that to cast Mana Vault. dte then taps Mana Vault for 3 mana, and uses 1 to cast Manifold Key. dte then uses another mana, leaving 1 floating, to untap Mana Vault. Mana Vault can then be tapped for 3 more mana, meaning dte has 4 mana total, so Karn can be cast right away.

---

good point

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dte

4. Phasmoid: Sunscorched Desert, Tel-Jilad Stylus, Izzet Boilerworks, Reality Acid
6-0. I am too fast for what you do being relevant. Plus, you have to prevent my T3 LD.

---

I missed how fast you are, but I still get that I win when I am OTP.
See my (edited) results post for analysis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Phasmoid

I missed how fast you are, but I still get that I win when I am OTP.
See my (edited) results post for analysis.

---

You're right, WL. I should really have used an artifact land :/

Me. silkster: Hickory Woodlot, Island, Rhonas's Last Stand, Stubborn Denial

1. Asthereal (TO): Golgari Rot Farm, Treetop Village, Assassin's Trophy, Mental Misstep
Damn! I thought Assassin's Trophy was OBL! Why didn't I double check? :(
LL

2. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Golgari Rot Farm, Ranger Class, Raven’s Crime
You can get to a tapped 4/4 on turn 5. I can kill on turn 6.
WD

3. dte: Mana vault, Karn, Scion of Urza, Manifold Key, Dust bowl
Wow, this deck is really cool.
WL

4. Phasmoid: Sunscorched Desert, Tel-Jilad Stylus, Izzet Boilerworks, Reality Acid
The first deck here that I actually saw coming.
WW

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Khalni Garden, Lotus Petal, Culling the Weak, Vraska, Swarm's Eminence
I had about 6 decks I was considering and most of them had Mental Misstep, but then I just had to tell myself that it was "too narrow".
If only you could have just played Swamp + Ornithoper. :(
LL

6. FTW: Bottomless Vault, Unmask, The Eldest Reborn, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
On the play, Island - > Woodlot - > 5/4 -> 4 turns attacking is exactly in time.
WL

7. alphastryk: Mental Misstep, Botanical Sanctum, Wind Zendikon, Lush Growth
I seriously went back and forth between Island and Botanical Sanctum because of Lush Growth. I thought there might be some Lush Growth, but that Lush Growth + Misstep would be less common that Tabernacle + Dustbowl. Bad call again. I also could have played the turn 1 Last Stand version of my deck to dodge both Misstep and Lush Growth.
LL

8. RoosterCocoa: Tolarian Academy, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Court of Grace
I did not see that coming.
WL

9. maxx!: Sheltered Valley, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, Garruk Relentless
I did not expect people to be playing so much Mana Vault and Khalni Garden that give them an extra mana one turn later.
I agree that I can stubborn Denial the Mana Vault to force the use of Lotus Petal and that cuts off Green.
WL

7W, 1D, 10L = 22

A decent idea overall, but terrible execution. I expected a few more storage lands that could pay 2 extra. Playing Sanctum and Spell Pierce over Island and Denial would have been +9.

The Misstep version of Rhonas's Last Stand would have scored 33. One of my other decks would have scored well, and it was probably the best deck that I was going to find of my style, but I didn't appreciate what this round would look like, and it seems that no round will ever look like this one again cause it was heavily based on Mana Vaults and Lotus Petals. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dte

My deck for last week was a 2* vault deck:
Sunscorched Desert, Mana vault, Mana vault, Lich's Mirror
Not a great deck, but the pseudo backbuild ring of it is fun for me :)

---

This is amazing. I guess it loses to counters and discard and artifact removal. I thought for a moment that it lost to decks that could assemble 20 damage in one attack, but it doesn't. Seems decent. I guess Mana Vault is probably leaving us this round, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dte

9. maxx!: Sheltered Valley, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, Garruk Relentless
6-0, Karn >> Garruk, particularly with the key.
27

---

What if maxx! just tries to kill Karn quickly instead of protecting Garruk?

Maxx! vs dte OTP
T1 Garruk -> 2/2 Wolf (Garruk 3 counters)
T1 Karn -> 3/3 Construct (Karn 3 counters)

T2 Garruk fights. Garruk & Construct die. 2/2 attacks Karn (Karn 1 counter)
T2 +1 Karn. Untap Vault. (Karn 2 counters)

T3 2/2 kills Karn.
Then dte has no plays and the 2/2 Wolf wins.

WL 3-3?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dte

My deck for last week was a 2* vault deck:
Sunscorched Desert, Mana vault, Mana vault, Lich's Mirror
Not a great deck, but the pseudo backbuild ring of it is fun for me :)

---

Smart idea! So there is no "disruption", but you have Turn 1 "can't lose the game" and then keep replaying the prison until the 20th Desert kills.

I think the deck works less well than you want. If Blinkmoth Nexus carefully times its attacks so that it kills you, Lich triggers on opponent's turn, then 2nd main phase they cast Wheel of Fortune to discard your cards before you replay anything. Your loop only works if you lose on your own turn and get to replay everything.
Edit: Nevermind, silkster is right. Those decks didn't have mana to do both.

The one I came up with was just my backbuild deck with disruption added. Veldt + Helix Pinnacle wins on Turn 202. Then add something like Unmask + Dismember or Lush Growth + Metrognome. However there's no reason to seriously consider a Veldt + Helix deck, while your Lich deck actually has reason to be played.

I had this many lists that I was looking at, the only overlap with the banlist is that Lush Growth/Mental Misstep slot. I guess I don't need to brew now, only decide about what I have, which is unfortunate cause I prefer the brewing part.
https://imgur.com/hQp68PI.jpg (The redacted lists would have scored me 24, 24, 42.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Smart idea! So there is no "disruption", but you have Turn 1 "can't lose the game" and then keep replaying the prison until the 20th Desert kills.

I think the deck works less well than you want. If Blinkmoth Nexus carefully times its attacks so that it kills you, Lich triggers on opponent's turn, then 2nd main phase they cast Wheel of Fortune to discard your cards before you replay anything. Hymn + 5/5 should be able to do the same thing. Your loop only works if you lose on your own turn and get to replay everything.

The one I came up with was just my backbuild deck with disruption added. Veldt + Helix Pinnacle wins on Turn 202. Then add something like Unmask + Dismember or Lush Growth + Metrognome. However there's no reason to seriously consider a Veldt + Helix deck, while your Lich deck actually has reason to be played.

---

The Lich's Mirror plan is vulnerable to creatures + discard, but not Blinkmoth, cause none of us could attack with a Blinkmoth and cast Wheel in the same turn.

I forgot about Helix Pinnacle. The slowest reasonable win that I could think of was Mercadian Bazaar + Shivan Gorge. I thought you could make it slower with a Veldt and a storage land that takes mana to charge, but then I realized that the Shivan Gorge could charge it anyway.

Also, I just realized that Leyline of Singularity was not on our original banlist either (I missed Assassin's Trophy today too). I'm okay 6 weeks too late to play it!

I put in the scores that people found for themselves and highlighted the cards on the chopping block. I think Asthereal gets the lower score in both disagreements, but Assassin's Trophy is still getting banned. I haven't done the Court of Grace vs. Garruk Relentless math.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FTW

Not only are the tokens flying (can't block with Treetop), but they're 4/4s not 4 1/1s! The first 4/4 flyer is enough to win.

Stylus targets permanents, not cards in graveyards.

---

Right. I need to start reading cards again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

2. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Golgari Rot Farm, Ranger Class, Raven’s Crime
I took a pauper deck and added the best unbanned threat from last round.

1. Asthereal (TO): Golgari Rot Farm, Treetop Village, Assassin's Trophy, Mental Misstep
Disagreement, I can float a black and retrace ravens crime on T2. WD 4-1

---

Good point. MIssed the floating black idea. That should be WD for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by silkster

I put in the scores that people found for themselves and highlighted the cards on the chopping block. I think Asthereal gets the lower score in both disagreements, but Assassin's Trophy is still getting banned. I haven't done the Court of Grace vs. Garruk Relentless math.

---

dte and maxx! agree, but I think they're both wrong. See my other comment above. OTP maxx! can trade off everything to destroy Karn, leaving 2/2 vs nothing. Should be WL 3-3.

This result would affect the bannings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FTW

dte and maxx! agree, but I think they're both wrong. See my other comment above. OTP maxx! can trade off everything to destroy Karn, leaving 2/2 vs nothing. Should be WL 3-3.

This result would affect the bannings.

---

Your logic makes sense to me, and would result in Mana Vault not yet seeing a ban - that's a big difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FTW

dte and maxx! agree, but I think they're both wrong. See my other comment above. OTP maxx! can trade off everything to destroy Karn, leaving 2/2 vs nothing. Should be WL 3-3.

This result would affect the bannings.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Your logic makes sense to me, and would result in Mana Vault not yet seeing a ban - that's a big difference.

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Yes indeed, it should be 3-3, and mana vault will not get the axe.

Agreed with FTW's line. 3-3

VraskaSmashmaster Results for Round "Still turn 1"

1. Asthereal (TO): Golgari Rot Farm, Treetop Village, Assassin's Trophy, Mental Misstep
Misstep :( 0-6

2. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Golgari Rot Farm, Ranger Class, Raven’s Crime
Assassin smash, then discard 3-3

3. dte: Mana vault, Karn, Scion of Urza, Manifold Key, Dust bowl
Better PW 0-6

4. Phasmoid: Sunscorched Desert, Tel-Jilad Stylus, Izzet Boilerworks, Reality Acid
Acid 0-6

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Khalni Garden, Lotus Petal, Culling the Weak, Vraska, Swarm's Eminence
That's me, playing deathtouch goblins!

6. FTW: Bottomless Vault, Unmask, The Eldest Reborn, Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Assassin smash, then discard 3-3

7. alphastryk: Mental Misstep, Botanical Sanctum, Wind Zendikon, Lush Growth
Misstep :( 0-6

8. RoosterCocoa: Tolarian Academy, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Court of Grace
Assassin smash, then Angel smash 3-3

9. maxx!: Sheltered Valley, Mana Vault, Lotus Petal, Garruk Relentless
Better PW 0-6

10. silkster: Hickory Woodlot, Island, Rhonas's Last Stand, Stubborn Denial
Assassin smash! 6-0

Total: 15 points