^
I am also not sold on As Foretold but I'm not understanding why you'd need to reset it. It's X or less, unlike Aether Vial. Unless I'm missing something.
EDIT: NM beat me to it.
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^
I am also not sold on As Foretold but I'm not understanding why you'd need to reset it. It's X or less, unlike Aether Vial. Unless I'm missing something.
EDIT: NM beat me to it.
Have we reached a consensus on the number of UAs and STPs? There seems to be 3UA/2STP lists and 2UA/3STP lists. I have been playing 3UA/2STP and UA is a chunky spell for certain but helps us not lose to Chalice.
As said before, As Foretold cast card for X or less cmc, so no need to reset it, the enchantment just get stronger as time last. You really should considère it, casting Ancestral Vision is just awesome. And if I'm not wrong, you can even flashback it through Snapcaster. I was aiming the deck to operate mid and late game with Venser/Clique lock, and early game controled through counterspell. Well, it's an early attempt, things will tell if this works good or not.
This FF and AV package will get run over by Delver and Combo, both cards on their own are too slow and they're easy to break up.
The legend package was much better before the ban because being able to break up CB with Venser + Cavern was amazing, since that's gone it's a lot worse. Delver will run it over too I think.
Not really. Keep playing and see what you like. My favourite configuration so far has been 4 StP and 2 UA md, with a Disenchant in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
Andrea Mengucci takes the latest Miracles list for a spin: https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...isnt-dead-yet/
You can't flashback Visions.Quote:
Originally Posted by kravkenov
I tested 4 Leylines and they performed well. I went 5-1 in matches where they came in: 2-0 vs Burn, 2-0 vs Belcher, 1-0 vs ANT, 0-1 vs TES. Though if it weren't for correcting the Burn matchup, I feel like I might actually prefer Canonist given its performance against Sneak Attack, Omnitell, or any derivation thereof. I'm kind of torn here because I want these slots to serve as much utility as possible, but I hate the idea of being an auto-lose to Burn when you can just as easily flip the match in your favor.Quote:
Originally Posted by itrytostorm
I wonder if Leyline would give you extra points in other matchups that rely heavily on hand disruption such as BR Reanimator or GB Depths. Maybe that's just a ridiculous idea ...
What about a 2/2 split of Leyline and Canonist? Or maybe 3/1? Canonist has utility in other matchups so even if it's not as good as Leylines vs. Burn, perhaps it's good enough to help in conjunction with the 2 or 3 Leylines while still pitching in against other matchups, giving us back some of our sideboard flexibility?Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampfoot48
I am aware that going down to 2 Leylines might diminish their utility to the point where they're no longer worth including, so that's an obvious downside to this route.
Please note I haven't tried this myself yet, so this is pure speculation and I was wondering if anyone else had gone this route.
Just to clarify, are you saying that most people are playing 3 Leylines of Sanctity in place of Ethersworn Canonist now? I'm asking because I haven't seen any decklists show up yet with Leylines, while pretty much all of them have Canonist. I realize that doesn't mean anything; you know way more people than I do who are testing this out so I assume you have more up to date info than me, and of course not all lists get posted. I just wanted to clarify if that's what you meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minniehajj
If people are playing Leylines in place of Canonist, is it just because of Burn and Storm or are they coming in for other matchups too?
gotta be kidding me, the path to exile in the article's SB. I don't think he ran Path in his videos, he had SFM packages in the deck-tech.Quote:
Originally Posted by filln
I'm wondering about the 3/1 split too. I'm going to give it a try :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterRat1
LOL, I was thinking the exact same thing, hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
So far in testing Leyline has been great, it's done exactly what it's meant to do and beat Burn and Storm. I've not played it vs BUG Decks with Hymn, Thoughtseize, Liliana etc yet, I think we side it in vs them? Honestly not sure though.
Regarding numbers, I've been playing three as a straight swap for Canonists, higher numbers are better for testing too. Vs Storm I've had them in my opener often enough, but I think theoretically we can play the game until turn four and play it, though it's tough through their discard obviously. I've been discussing a 2/1 split of Leyline and Canonist with friends though, that could be fine. Would appreciate some more feedback if anyone else gets to try it.
Sorry for the double post, but I've had quite a lot of people ask me for sideboarding advice, so I thought it'd be useful to post some thoughts here. Take this all with a grain of salt, since Miracles is a reactive deck, sbing should be treated as such too. You can sb differently vs different opponents based on how they play and how many cards you see them sideboarding in/out, not just what deck they're playing. Feel free to question/challenge anything too, I could well be off base!
One thing to note, I leave in Force of Will a lot more than most people, the only matchup where I board down to less than two is Jund. I think now more than ever we need to recoup some early tempo loss and force through Terminus against blue creature strategies, we can recoup the card disadvantage later with Predict, Jace and SCM.
Here is the list I'm playing and am happy with for the time being.
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Unexpectedly Absent
3 Tundra
5 Island
3 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
SB:
3 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Back to Basics
1 Disenchant
1 Vendilion Clique
Grixis Delver:
-1 Entreat the Angels
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will
+3 Flusterstorm
+2 Monastery Mentor
ANT:
-1 Plains
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Terminus
-1 Entreat the Angels
-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-2 Unexpectedly Absent
+3 Flusterstorm
+3 Surgical Extraction
+3 Leyline of Sanctity
+2 Monastery Mentor
+1 Vendilion Clique
BUG Delver:
-1 Terminus
-2 Force of Will
-1 Counterspell
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Monastery Mentor/B2B...all of the cards we're taking out are also good here.
Especially in this matchup you should pay attention to how the opponent plays and how many cards they're boarding in/out. If you suspect they're leaving in Decays I wouldn't bring in B2B or Mentor, if you think they're taking them out you can bring both in.
Mirror:
-1 Plains
-3 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Terminus
+3 Flusterstorm
+2 Monastery Mentor
+1 Vendilion Clique
Sneak and Show:
-1 Plains
-4 Terminus
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Flusterstorm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Disenchant
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Monastery Mentor
Death and Taxes:
-3 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+2 Back to Basics
+2 Monastery Mentor
+1 Disenchant
Elves:
-1 Unexpectedly Absent
-1 Counterspell
+2 Monastery Mentor
Bant Deathblade:
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Force of Will
+2 Back to Basics
+1 Disenchant
Esper Deathblade:
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Force of Will
+2 Monastery Mentor
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Disenchant
UR Delver:
-2 Predict
-1 Counterspell
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+3 Flusterstorm
+2 Monastery Mentor
Moon Stompy:
-2 Portent
-1 Terminus
+2 Monastery Mentor
+1 Disenchant
Eldrazi:
-1 Portent
-1 Ponder
-3 Coutnerspell
+2 Monastery Mentor
+2 Back to Basics
+1 Disenchant
I've not played this matchup enough to know if Portent or Ponder is better/worse. Ponder is better for land drops, Portent for Terminus.
BG Depths:
-4 Terminus
-1 Counterspell
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+2 Flusterstorm
+3 Surgical Extraction
+1 Disenchant
Leylines might be good here, I've not played it with them yet.
Aggro Loam:
-2 Terminus
-2 Portent
-1 Force of Will
+2 Monastery Mentor
+2 Back to Basics
+1 Disenchant
Jund:
-3 Force of Will
-1 Counterspell
+2 Back to Basics
+2 Monastery Mentor
Shardless:
-1 Force of Will
-1 Terminus
+2 Monastery Mentor
UB Landstill:
-4 Terminus
-1 Entreat the Angels
-1 Swords to Plowshares
+3 Flusterstorm
+2 Monastery Mentor
+1 Vendilion Clique
Lands:
-4 Terminus
-3 Counterspell
-1 Predict
+3 Surgical Extraction
+2 Back to Basics
+2 Monastery Mentor
+1 Disenchant
BR Reanimator:
-4 Terminus
-1 Counterspell
-2 Unexpectedly Absent
+3 Flusterstorm
+3 Surgical Extraction
+1 Vendilion Clique
Similar to Depths, Leyline might be good here, I haven't played it yet with them in the sb.
4c Control:
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Terminus
-1 Unexpectedly Absent
+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Monastery Mentor
+1 Vendilion Clique
Infect:
-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-2 Counterspell
-1 Entreat the Angels
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Back to Basics
Food Chain:
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Force of Will
+2 Monastery Mentor
+1 Disnchant
This matchup feels really bad, something to address. I didn't like Canonist vs it either very much as they can outgrind you easily.
Burn:
-2 Terminus
-2 Jace, the Mind Scluptor
-2 Predict
-1 Counterspell
-1 Force of Will
+3 Flusterstorm
+3 Leyline of Sanctity
+2 Monastery Mentor
Maverick:
-3 Counterspell
+2 Monastery Mentor
+1 Disenchant
Big Red:
-4 Terminus
-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Disenchant
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Monastery Mentor
Jace isn't bad in this matchup though, could be wrong to sb them out.
Whitefaces, thanks for the insight, it is really helpful! Have a few remarks though.
Why do you side in BtB against Jund and not against Shardless? Both decks have Shamans/Decays and play few basics, though Shardless seems to be more controlling deck, and BtB will shine as the game goes longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
I playtested against this match and Leylines were really good, especially if Reanimator is playing numerous Collective Brutality's since under Leylines they can only choose one mode with it (no additional discard is nice). Also it is much easier to win with counterspells as long as they are not under the risk of discarding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
No problem!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister Full-House
I side in Back to Basics vs anything with Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fire (I just realised I didn't include the Punishing Thieves deck in that list, I board it in vs them too). This engine is one of the best ways to beat us, and against fair decks like Jund I don't want to have a narrower card like Surgical Extraction to stop it, they're also sometimes able to play around it. So B2B isn't really to attack their mana, for that reason I don't bring it in vs Shardless, but to stop that engine. It can steal some free wins too, which is a nice bonus.
Leyline does sound great vs BR Reanimator, I'll try it next time I'm paired vs it! Not sure what else to take out yet, it feels like we have a lot of great tools to beat them.
I suggest we can side out 2 Plains since we drop the amount of white cards and possibly 1 PortentQuote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Played a UWR variantion yesterday in my LGS.
Sideboard was:
3 mentor
2 canonist
2 REB
3 Fluster
2 moon
2 surgical
1 clique
2x1 Burn - mentor really helped the clock here. Thinking about the need for leyline.
2x0 Grixis Control - the red splash was amazing, moo won by itself G2.
2x1 Death and taxe - i am findindg this game easier than it was before the ban. They cant keep up with our card advantage.
ID - RUG Delver - we played before the event begins and I won 2 games pre board and los one. Didn't test the sideboard games yet.
This deck is pure gas!
Nice run! Agree about Death and Taxes, I've found it a lot easier than before too.
I notice your list lacks red. Is that because it is unnecessary to you, or you haven't had adequate testing with it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
I think it's a bit weird to run less than 4 leylines if you're running them. Surviving til you hit 4 land drops seems iffy, especially if this becomes "standard tech" and people play around it. Maybe it's enough in Vegas, but once it becomes "known" thinking you can draw into it seems dangerous. I always try to make "what happens if people know what I'm doing" decisions, because if what i'm doing is any good, they will eventually know anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Anyway, Canonist is brutal. I would wholeheartedly recommend as many as you're willing to run. Infect, Food Chain, Aluren, Storm, Omnishow, Elves, Sneakshow, etc.. all good. If nothing else it makes your counterspells one-sided, like a backwards Defense Grid. Vs. Infect it's amazingly good, due to them being unable to answer any of your answers, so they have to either get 2-for-1'd whenever they do something, or slow roll you. Aluren is pretty funny because if it's in your hand you can just play it in response to them playing harpy [when starting their combo] and they have to pass the turn. I would be mildly worried about Discard, but them's the breaks.
The former. I've played a few leagues with it and it didn't feel necessary to me really, but it's working for others (Two more 5-0 lists just got posted, both with red, one with 2 md blasts!!!).Quote:
Originally Posted by itrytostorm
Of course Pyroblast and Blood Moon are very powerful cards, but they don't address our worst matchups (unless Miracles really picks up, then playing Blasts might be necessary). I believe the deck is already strong enough vs fair decks, so making the manabase weaker vs Wasteland (there is a big tension between needing R for Blast and WW for UA) as well as making room in the sideboard for the Pyroblasts which, apart from Show and Tell, are coming in vs fair decks I don't see the red splash as good as they were before. The sb space is dedicated heavily to combo, so unless the Mentors move to the md (as some people are doing), they're what the blasts would be replacing and I'm not happy with that. I also tried Mentors in the md and wasn't thrilled by them, but this boils down to playstyle a lot too.
There might be a cat and mouse game between us and storm for a bit, while we're changing our board plans, they adapt to that, then we switch again. It's quite fun since the online meta moves so fast! Leyline is pretty resilient though, we're safe from discard and can counter something like Echoing Truth or Chain of Vapor with that protection. I suppose their next change will be Krosan Grip as it hits both Canonist and Leyline, but I've got a couple more ideas after that.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Canonist is actually pretty horrible vs Infect, I've learnt it the hard way over the years. Since we're the reactive deck they can simply attack and use Vines as a hard counter with Canonist in play. It's OK vs Food Chain and Aluren (they can still combo off with Canonist in play if they have the right hand, which isn't uncommon). I've tried siding it in and not vs both, the danger of it is that they can still outgrind us. It's fantastic vs Storm and Show and Tell though, yep!
From the other side of this match up old miracles best cards were red blasts as they both interfere MP and griffins. So the red splash should improve this matchup. Wear/tear were also ok with 8 MD artifacts and Food chain as targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
I like your latest list, 2 absents feels right. I've been doing well with food chain in our local league and can afford to try new decks without risking a spot in the finals. I think I'm gonna try your list!
Very notably, both lists ran Mentor main with no Entreat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Yeah, I prefer Mentor from the board, but the card is so insane it's great in the md too.Quote:
Originally Posted by itrytostorm
Fwiw, I think there are a lot of positives to the red splash too, clearly. Only personally do I feel like the reward of splashing isn't there, but others do and are doing well with it, so I urge everyone to try out both with and without if possible.
I plan on doing a competitive tournament for power Saturday. Usually ~100 players. I plan on writing a report as it'll be the first time I'm playing it in paper. I top 4'd with Bomberman the last time, hopefully I can do as well or better :) Leaning towards the red splash as I've had regulars there tell me :u: is running amok over there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Hello all! I'm brand new to the forum. I wanted see what you all thought about Mindbreak Trap for the Storm MU... thanks!
Whitefaces, you say that one of the reasons you don't like the red splash is you don't think it helps our worst matchups, just makes our ok matchups better. That's interesting because the reason I wanted to run red was to help what I though some of our toughest matchups were, the grindy 4 color Leovold / Jace decks that can compete with us on card advantage. What do you think our worst matchups are?
I thought the worst matchups were Burn, 12 Post, and decks with both Loam/Punishing Fire, personally.
As for MBT, it is a fine card only in the Storm matchup. You can diversify your hate to make yourself less vulnerable to Cabal Therapy, which can pluck 2 Flusterstorms out of your hand but not a Trap and a Flusterstorm. The problem is that when fighting other blue decks, Flusterstorm is much better. In the Sneak & Show matchup, for example, MBT is awful if an opponent has S&T with FoW backup, whereas Flusterstorm is very good. Against Grixis Delver, you can protect a Terminus with a Flusterstorm to stop their own counterspells: again, Mindbreak Trap is bad here.
Hello HandSolo, people here are trying hard to make Miracle great again! Welcome to this dynamic thread:smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by HandSolo
As for your problem, in my opinion, Flusterstorm is a better card when competing Mindbreak Trap in the storm MU. It is a lot more flexible, for example, Flusterstorm can easily counter opponent discard spell in early turns to hide information. But for Mindbreak Trap, alternative cost is only active when several spells are already cast in the turn, which means opponent is more likely to play around this card.
Edit: Moreover, we play 3-4 Snapcaster Mages now, and it is much easier to flash back a 1 mana spell than a 4 mana one:tongue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by entreri_fans
Thanks for the reply! I am picking up my third copy of flusterstorm today, it was just a thought I had. Also, I was wondering what the community thought about Runed Halo as SB option.
I am loving the deck, so thanks for all the hard work!
Any thought on adding land tax for card advantage due to the use of basics?🤷🏼*♂️ With brainstorm it could be fun!
Here's the thing, some players have figured out how to beat Canonist: Rending Volley. Why would Storm players' run such narrow card? I have no idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
I can't tell what part of that is sarcasm, but it's not like storm never had answers. Combust, Sudden Shock, and Abrupt Decay have been things since.. what.. the beginning of legacy? Not to mention Massacre. The idea that Storm is *just now* finding answers for Canonist and friends is asinine. So you can take your smug attitude and sit on it. Are you suggesting that because they have an answer to your hate (pssst.. Chain of Vapor) that you need a better piece of hate? A what.. 2-of in their side? At most? That's not even fetchable with Wish?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
It's just as easy to turn that around and say "Some players have figured out how to beat Leyline: Empty the Warrens." Maybe I'm wrong. But if I am, it's not going to be Rending Volley that is the deciding factor.
"Storm did it you guys! They shaved off precisely :1: from a narrow anti-hate-card and that was the deciding factor to make it the best deck! That was all it took! I mean Massacre was :0: and fetchable with wish and that didn't make hatebears go away; but fucking Rending Volley man.. the end is nigh" -twodomn
Well, that escalated quickly.
The current card on my radar is Commit /// Memory. Just seems like a very reasonable replacement for Unexplained Absence.
Ultimately it's always gonna cost more to cast at 4 mana instead of two to three. It does have the value of only one blue mana. It's also acts as an extra counterspell, stops storm triggers, does work with Predict and fights through Boseiju. Ontop of that there is the bonus of a Timetwister.
A six mana memory does have some value. I've noticed the deck hard cast Terminus more frequently than without Top. So it's not a far stretch in niche situations after exhausting all your outs to say a True-Name. You may need to refill with access to four more board wipes.
idk... I only own 2 Tundras. Looking to ease my white mana dependence. Bash away.
Does it feel good when you try to shove unsaid words onto someone? Do you always try to place label on someone you don't know? Thanks for being childish, cause this thread really needs that. I mention Rending Volley because in one game, I thought I had game won, my Canonist was beating down the storm player and I can protect it via counter magic, and then that storm player played Rending Volley. That's all I have written. You seem to interpret other people's post in the most twisted, mind-bending, diabolic way possible, I'll let people around the world to be the judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
I think our worst matchups are Burn, Storm, Food Chain, Lands and in theory Aggro Loam but I've not played it yet. Pyroblast is insane vs FC, but not the others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzfroste
I've found the 4c grindy midrange decks to be OK so far, but I've not been able to play much at all this week so my sample is a bit smaller than yours probably, and it's from when the deck was newer so had some help from them not knowing the list. I'm happy to take your word that the matchup isn't as good as I think it is, I'm going to play some UWr over the weekend hopefully.
Commit//Memory is just a bad card I'm afraid, much too expensive and doesn't do anything we want in the deck. But you can play the deck perfectly fine with just two Tundras :) Replace the third with a white fetchland, it can either be an Arid Mesa or Windswept Heath (assuming you're on straight UW).Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchyman
On the subject of twndomn vs tescrin, I'm with twndomn. Storm players are playing Rending Volley as a direct reaction to us playing Canonists to beat them, it's narrow but it works (kills all hatebears, inc Leo, fwiw). This is not something to just ignore and carry on playing Canonists imo.
So Leyline is the deal over Canonist ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Do you bring it against grindy GB deck ?
I think online vs irl is different. I'm playing Leylines online at the moment as the meta moves a lot faster, but Canonists in real life. But if you see that your playgroup or a tournament you're going to is 'up to date' with the matchup, then maybe play Leylines irl too. They've been very good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestalim
I haven't had the chance to try them vs GBx decks actually, so I don't know I'm afraid. It's nice vs Hymn, but a horrible topdeck later on. Like I said just now, I've not had the chance to play much this week, but hopefully on the weekend :smile:
Yeah, I don't have much time to play online, can't grind both Mtgo and Gwent. But I have a FNM Legacy each Friday and some tournaments on Saturday, and currently my meta is quite fair (and unfortunatly less populated than before the Top ban, which is funny because I was the only Miracle player).Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
I play Canonist mostly because there is two Aluren players in my Meta.