[Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

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Originally Posted by warai

Let me remind you:
The Reserved List was created in the wake of the protests of Magic card collectors when a lot of their cards had been devalued with the release of Fourth Edition and Chronicles.

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Funny enough, every time wizard gave players what they wanted things turned out worst for them and the game.
On the same line:
-Chronicles
-Modern Pro Tour
-Fetch lands in Kans' Standard

Players are just so dumb...

@cutthroat casual- I guess I set myself up for that one. You clearly took the extreme point in my statement. Dealers only pay 70% for high demand cards, like the hottest card at a standard pro tour/GP or the like. Most of the cards that are critical for Legacy are purchased closer to the 50-60% price point. The loss of TCG/ebay and other market fees should not factor into the math. As that is a static cost that is always taken off the top. Much like the utility bill of a brick and mortar store, it is actually already figured into the buy and sell list prices of cards. By you selectively choosing to use it here you are basically playing with the numbers as that lost would have been part of the collection no matter what. Hopefully you can understand that.

Since you used a hypothetical example we should see if the evidence supports your viewpoint. As I mentioned before, most of Chronicles was shit and it was printed into the ground. Distribution and allocation was much different then. Hell standard as we know it was still being experimented with. It is both short sighted and inaccurate. But luckily we have a bunch of recent reprints that fit what others are looking for. Fow, Wasteland, goyf, and Bob are the types of cards people are looking at. When you guys worry about your $250 cards dropping to $20, they basically blow that fear out of the water.
All my numbers are from mtggoldfish, mainly bc its easier for me and also its the percentage points we care about, not the actual dollars. So fow was at its peak in Feb2016 at around $97 dollars. It would drop all the way to $76 in June of this year(so a peak loss of 22%). Currently the card is at $80, approximately 18% loss over the year. Wasteland was at its peak over a year before its reprint in eternal masters. At the time of its reprint it was already steadily trending down. In January of this year it was at $67.50 and its price point has not recovered. Currently it is at $43 a drop of 21%. Goyf is interesting as it has had multiple reprints. For simplicity I will just use the most recent one. Before MM@ it was a high of 208 in April 2015, after the reprint it fell to a low of $148 dollars, which happens to be its current price. This is a drop of 28%, although the card may continue to fall, however it should be noted that some of the continued drop is likely secondary to the card losing strength with changing metas. Bob was already trending downward at the time of its second reprinting. It should be noted that it had recovered all of its value after its first reprint in MM, however I think it is important for completeness as Bob represents a strong card that had its value affected by both reprinting and changing meta. His peak 3 months out from his most recent printing was $72 in Feb2015. Currently he is at his lowest of $40, which is a drop of 44%.

Hopefully these numbers shed some light on what one could expect as a drop in price secondary to reprints. Clearly those cards that are both affected by the reprint and playability would suffer the greatest price drop. The reprintings and the general fact that Bob is too fragile has driven his price point down. It should be noted that he was steadily trending down at the time of the reprint and it is entirely likely he would have gotten to this point without the reprint. Fow, goyf, and wasteland all saw about a 20% drop in price.

Nobody is calling for a Chronicles style reprint. Please look over the set list of Chronicles. Even when it came out most of those cards were not playable. Tron lands were cool, but really it was a set of cards that were only valuable because they were so rare. People want playable cards, nobody is calling for a reprint of All Hallow’s Eve, Hellfire, or Ali from Cairo. I do agree that reprinting those cards would drive down their value probably in line with what you showed. Wizards affects the price of cards with printings and bannings. One could easily argue that new printings will devalue your cards much like you can see when evaluating Bob. But those cards that are staples have continued to hold value.

TO be honest with you, everyone who is arguing against reprints should actually take the stance that reprints will actually drive up the price point of Legacy. Saffron olive over at mtggoldfish did a great evaluation of the changing price points of modern after MM sets. Overall the card pool has increased even as some staples have dropped. It is theorized that more people feel that they can get into the format as the big ticket cards dropped and supporting cards increased by a larger factor. Increasing the buying power of the average player most likely will drive more sales of cards, so that even if the card price drops, overall card sales will probably increase.

Seth

I should add nobody wants a standard style reprint. As such the Khans fetches are a terrible example for the price point of cards. Yes any card that only has an old border printing will plummet if it was part of a standard set. That is literally due to the huge growth of the game and the increase in general printings over the past 10 years. Both of which are very good for the survival of the game.

Khans fetch reprints were great. Especially considering it put them into modern + they are the most important lands in legacy. Fetches are the best lands in the format and making them far more accessible was great towards creating the illusion of making the format accessible for players.

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Originally Posted by sroncor1

People want playable cards, nobody is calling for a reprint of All Hallow’s Eve, Hellfire, or Ali from Cairo. I do agree that reprinting those cards would drive down their value probably in line with what you showed.

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I agree with your points on reprints and value, I only disagree with the section quoted above. You could put a new copy of those 3 cards into every booster pack from now until infinity and only the new copies will be worthless. The cards in the 93/94 card pool are the exception to the rule.

You are probably correct about the old school cards being protected from price drops. I guess my point was more just highlighting cards that were solely elevated in value due to scarcity minus any real demand for playability. I guess you really need to look at those cards from Mirage through Onslaught. And really there are few cards if any that fit this criteria.

Seth

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Originally Posted by Spam

Funny enough, every time wizard gave players what they wanted things turned out worst for them and the game.
On the same line:
-Chronicles
-Modern Pro Tour
-Fetch lands in Kans' Standard

Players are just so dumb...

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You know, it might just be that the people who complained about not having enough reprints are an entirely different subset of players than those who complain about too many reprints.

You only think "players are just so dumb" if you think of all Players as being one entity. They're not. There's no contradiction in different people liking different things.

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Originally Posted by Kathal

Oh boy, you have no idea.
PS: And yes, I have enough cards from the RL and yes, I would lose a lot of money, but I give a damn, cause I bought those cards to play.

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Word, maintaining a hundred casual decks / a few cubes / a handful of EDH decks / a few competitive decks takes money. But, in return, you can play with your family in any format on a moment's notice.

https://mtgdash.blogspot.de/2016/12/...-bad-idea.html

Pretty interesting read. The whole "expanding the playerbase thing" kinda fits into recent changes WotC:

- concentrating the value of boosters in Masterpieces, driving down the value of everything else in the process
- returning blazing fast (for Wizards' standards) back to the 2-year Standard rotation since it alienated players due to high entrance barrier to keep up
- the current ongoing restructuring of the tournament schedule

New Judge Foil:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...2207913304.jpg

Missed opportunity in my opinion... At least Fiery Confluence sees *some* play in Legacy.
Although apparently this one sees play in EDH as it is by far the most valuable of the cycle. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Spam

Funny enough, every time wizard gave players what they wanted things turned out worst for them and the game.
On the same line:
-Chronicles

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The problem with Chronicles wasn't Chronicles itself. It's that they overprinted it to such an extent.

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-Modern Pro Tour

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I actually liked having the Pro Tour be Modern. Made me more interested in trying to get to it. The problem was that Wizards of the Coast decided to transparently ban Splinter Twin just to try to shake things up just before they had one of the least diverse Pro Tours ever. I don't think people would have been as upset about the Eldrazi if it wasn't for Wizards of the Coast making a needless and extremely controversial ban in the name of format diversity and then ending up with an extremely un-diverse format immediately afterwards.

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-Fetch lands in Kans' Standard

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The fetchlands were perfectly fine, and in fact were very nice to have. The problem was that Wizards of the Coast had the brilliant idea of printing, while those were legal, fetchable dual lands while not printing a single decent hate card. Admittedly, they were only simultaneously legal for one Standard rotation (and this was when they were double twice a year rotations so it was only half a year), but again the problem was not the fetchlands, it was them thinking there would somehow be no problems with fetchable dual lands while having zero hate for them.

Still, even if the Pro Tour being Modern was an inherently bad thing due to it requiring bannings or whatever... they sure didn't bother to mention that when removing the Modern Pro Tour, instead giving some gibberish about how Standard encouraged better deckbuilding or something.

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Players are just so dumb...

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The problem is, asking for none of those things was bad or dumb. All of those were good things to ask for (and in the case of the fetchlands reprint, there were no real complaints at all about it until, once again, WOTC somehow thought fetchable dual lands were a smart idea in a format with fetchlands and basically no hate). It was the incompetent way Wizards of the Coast went about fulfilling them that were the problem. I suppose one can make an argument that the Pro Tour was inherently a problem, but again, that comes back to WOTC doing such a bad job explaining why they were getting rid of it.

Also, you make the contention that every time WOTC gave players what they wanted it was for the worse. Okay, what about all the other things players have asked for? For example, collector numbers and the ability to look at a card and know its rarity were things players asked for, and those sure as heck didn't change the game for the worse. You can't claim every time they did what players wanted it was for the worse unless you're going to go down the list of every single thing every asked for by a player that was fulfilled and explain how it made things worse.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

New Judge Foil:

-Mystic Confluence-

Missed opportunity in my opinion... At least Fiery Confluence sees *some* play in Legacy.
Although apparently this one sees play in EDH as it is by far the most valuable of the cycle. :rolleyes:

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From what I've been told, it sees a lot of play in Cubes.

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Originally Posted by Whippoorwill

From what I've been told, it sees a lot of play in Cubes.

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And 7 Point Highlander.

Just because the subject popped up on another thread, figured it deserved being reminded here as well.

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Originally Posted by Ben Bleiweiss

For my own part? I wish that Wizards would have just gone ahead and done away with the Reserved List entirely. It is nothing but a blight on the game and one that long outlived its purpose.

[...]

I am wholeheartedly in favor of getting rid of the Reserved List and reprinting higher-dollar staple cards from EDH and Legacy. Pete Hoefling the owner of StarCityGames.com agrees with my point of view as well. We both believe that this would benefit the long-term health of the game and that any temporary drop in value of specific cards would be balanced out by the increased interest in older cards and formats and a cyclical rise-in-value/reprinting of cards as needed.

- Ben Bleiweiss, SCG General Manager, Feb 2010 (link)

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I remember these couple weeks as there had been massive hope at the time that this was finally it and that WotC would finally send the RL back to where it belongs, the garbage bin.

I'd sig this if I could, but I just can't get around the idea of losing my current one, and it's not like I post that much anyway.

Saheeli Rai on the rise due to new splinter twin like combo with Felidar Gaurdian (standard legal). Foil Fatal Push between 85 and 95 euros a pop in preorder on MCM due to buy out / manipulation from Austria

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Saheeli Rai on the rise due to new splinter twin like combo with Felidar Gaurdian (standard legal). Foil Fatal Push between 85 and 95 euros a pop in preorder on MCM due to buy out / manipulation from Austria

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LOL ... let them try to sell that shit for that money. We have seen 60€ foil pyro-/hydroblasts after their release too

The buy-outs aren't limited to high end stuff anymore. An excellent English Legends Blood Lust will now cost you at least 9.39 euro on mkm these days. I suspect the popularity of 93/94 has something to do with this.

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Originally Posted by Stan

An excellent English Legends Blood Lust will now cost you at least 9.39 euro on mkm these days. I suspect the popularity of 93/94 has something to do with this.

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Yep, it's very popular in that format.

vbackl when i started to play this game 20 years ago (summe 1996 ), it was amatzng, how this all completed / created the world of its iown..

We had the world of the black metal, the RPGs , ther red wine, the MTG, and it was much more avobut i mean well playing that n the studff t the compeitive stuff.
and it wa s a wolf ler dof its own, the i worl d is dead now, that hurtsm em geeezos hurtsm ,e. Ithe mean all the stuff ,like stuuff ansd shit,. it wroked togeht r like aone world one world, and we could b welkjing , wleking through th world of that. the Bazzaar, the Tabrrnavlce (shit! that' intzende!), the Lake of the Deoth, the wutniot, it was um-hu-zing, you kno, it was all that Shit , it was like liviung in hobbit or DnD or stuff.
nowadays it feels like sucking a lfalse dick made of false dick material.
Hatered immenxce. i like hoe the old stuf fwoah, that as bautinguldng, i wanna make a monoblack deck 1996 wafffen-Necro deck but yeha noobdy gonna playeth aganstT thath: Ihsnbahn Shade, 12x black knights, lots of opther stuff. Ave Caeasr! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOwu...5CakoG-XduK0gg
was shit qand stuff and things and BM.

I loved those days.

I love your accent


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Walking Ballista is now a $12 standard rare. Gross. Guess I'll be waiting a month or two to try it in MUD.

I spent less than that for my playset. What happened?