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I don't see that happening as you described for 2 reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielsie
1.) It's a 1 mana investment that shuts down a (typically) large part of competitive decks. That is OP. It would cost 2 mana at the very least. Probably 3 if it says 'cannot cast' rather than 'is countered'.
2.) It's a non-bo with itself.
Make it colored, 4 mana and give it the Leyline clause.
Just want to say, I wasn't trying to turn this thread into the card creation thread, just more steering the converstaion towards how this "problem" can be solved without the need to ban things it just takes a few key printings or unbannings to solve it.
#FreeMentalMisstep :laugh:
Don't worry. It's an improvement in many ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
More on topic...
Either Top and/or DTT get the hammer, or Survival gets unbanned.
I'd love to see a meta with both Miracles and Survival tbh.
I have a feeling survival will get unbanned eventually the same way gush and Gifts did in vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamatria
Reanimator is faster and even that is easily hated out these days. Show and Tell is just more robust.
Who knows if vengevine would still even be good, but I'd rather die in the combat step than to an enchantment.
There's really no reason for survival to remain banned. Legacy has more than enough ways to combat it.
I'd like to see the results of a survival deck versus a miracles deck (with sideboard RIP)Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Survival doesn't really add much to the format except another dominating blue deck. Yawn.
Wouldn't survival be tend to be W/G/X because 1 mana tutors for your engine are better then cantrips, and it wants a large # of creaturers as well...Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
There is a combo build that's traditionally U/W/G and it's one of the more powerful of the Survival lists.
Except that isn't really the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Unban Survival and Recruiter. Make a new deck, and improve a current deck that has been constantly shit on by WOTC for about 5 years in a row now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamatria
Except, back in the days, most did not run Blue. Even in today's meta Blue would be the last color I would look at. I think you are really nice guy, but sometimes check your facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Unban Goblin Recruiter, indeed. Give the Goblin-Tribe some sweet lovin'! Hell, I'm sure it isn't even the card Goblins needs to be viable again (artifact/ enchantment-hate, +1/+1-Lords, cheap and effective Goblins)
Goblins will never be tier 1 and unbeatable again, because like dredge, it's so easy to hate out. Notably combo decks and or e.plague. I just do not understand why it's banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Because of time issued caused by stacking ones deck.
Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post882997
Sigh.
This has come up time and time again. Recruiter was banned on power reasons, stays banned on time concerns. If it was not banned right now it likely would not be, but since it is, it's easier to leave it banned and not deal with the issue then unban it and create another "SDT" style issue. It's not going to break the format, but it's an issue that doesn't need to be created or faced.
Pointing to articles made 12 years ago is foolish, the format ain't looking much like it did then. The speed of decks has changed a large amount over that time. I don't feel like those two articles in any way reflect the realities or thinking of the modern Legacy format.
(Granted, pointing to 12 year old articles stating Jar is broken is likely not a bad plan, but again, the reasons would be outdated.)
Do you have anything substantial to back this claim up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
A link to someone at WOTC who has ever said something to that effect? A youtube video showing how long resolving a Recruiter trigger takes?
Those who have actually played with the card know that time is never, ever an issue with this. You never actually stack the whole deck anyway, only the top 20 cards or so, and with a minimum of practice the time it takes to make four Ringleader stacks is about the same time it takes to activate Sensei's Divining Top four times and resolve a fetchland shuffle.
Just a though I'm toying with.
Wouldn't it be ok to leave Branstorm in the format but ban Ponder, Preordain and most probably Dig would also have to go, because the "cantrip cartel" these days is just really nauseating.
Brainstorm after all is iconic card, people enjoy playing it, it definetly is powerfull and has cool unique effect of putting redundant cards back on top or hidding info, but before axing it directly, I would try to cut all other cantrips as well. Brainstorm all alone, cant twist meta that much. Even with top it only allows for one deck to exist, Mioracles (personally I'm not ofended by this deck's exxistence).
I fail to see how resolving a Recruiter trigger would take any longer than someone going off with High Tide or even Storm.
Survival was also an iconic card of the meta, a "pillar" like some people like to call it, yet Wizards had no qualms banning it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Miagi
Brainstorm is the main problem due to its unique properties, the other cantrips are a lesser problem compared to that.
It is not played a hell of a lot, but as someone that dose kick it around in vintage as a bit of fun here and there, it does take a long while to make work. The reason is because it is not as simple as just stacking. You are looking at, in a way making Doomsday piles that are longer and need to be planed perfectly. They also need to be set up for the situation at hand. This take time:
1st: Split your deck into two piles.
2nd: Stack one of the piles in the correct order. Check and recheck order dependent on boardstate and cards you might have to deal with.
3rd: Shuffle second pile, cut, place on table.
4th: Take out your calculator to keep up with your mana supply.
5th: Take the rest of the time needed to combo out, note if you are not totally sure on what you need this part alone can take 10 minutes.
6th: If Food Chain is blown up, crack a fetch and do it all again.
This is a bother, it is time consuming and it is a pain. As to do I have a direct quote? No but I also do not have a direct Quote from Wizards stating that they only release cards from the ban list in a hostage transfer style situation, but that doesn't make the reality and more or less real. We all know that is true as well. We also all knew that Dragon was not going to do shit, we knew Tax wasn't going to do shit, we know Earthcraft is not going to break the format and we know Recruiter will not either. Knowing these things does not mean we can prove them. But we know them. But really, do you need to prove this shit or is common scene not enough to work it all out?
The issue with Earthcraft is not that it is unsafe, but that there is no card being banned right now so there is no reason to unban a card, the issue with Recruiter is that while it's not broken or too powerful any more, its simpler to leave the issue buried then deal with the unwanted secondary issues its unbanning could create. Simply put, if you can not use your brain and work though what is said without being said, well that ain't my fault. But fuck, not being about to see whats being said without actually being written down is what causes some people to hold out hope Brainstorm might get banned one day.
So you are right, because:
- we all know that it is true
- common scene
- what is said without being said
- the card is still banned
Sorry, I am just not buying it, and not your imaginary "Take out your calculator" scenario either.
Recruiter was banned from the beginning of Legacy, and have never been unbanned - this is a fact, and the only thing we agree on.
As to why it isn't unbanned, I don't really know, but I do think it is an obvious candidate for unbanning.
I agree it is at a power that the format can deal with yes, I do not think the powers that be will let it off the leash though due to issues raised above.
Dice Box, you are right, we know a lot of things that wizards never explicitly stated but they are in fact true. The problem is that this things are just plain wrong (safe cards being banned, unbannings only when another card gets banned, brainstorm still legal), so just accepting all this shit and playing a format that wizards is not interested in and probably not able to manage properly is not a good proposition. Legacy would need a revolution :)
The big difference is that the game is decided at the end of the turn if a storm or High Tide player is going off unlike with Recruiter. In fact, you can repeat the stacking with Recruiter several times within a single game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielsie
But aren't most stacks less than 10 cards? And very regularly the same 5 or 6 stacks the player already has memorized? And if it isn't disrupted it generally means the game is over?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I also feel I am being very generous with those numbers, meaning stacks are likely 6 or fewer cards and the regular stacks number closer to 2 or 3...
Doesn't Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Warchief, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Recruiter seem like what you'd use unless you need a utility goblin?
That is dependent on the kill. Normally the stacks are based on the mana you can produce on the table. If you have limited mana, your opening cards are a setup feeding into a Ringleader and then a SGC. (5 mana into 9 mana) At that point you can chain into a combo of kinds or you set up longer chains based on how you plan to kill. (Say Kiki/Crafter or a Piledrivers and Warchief.) The issues are created but the mana demands and more complex board states. Having to play around large amount of blockers, not having the Kiki combo, shit like that. If you have to punch though a midrange deck for example who can take the hit, remove combo pieces and then cause you issues, you have to plan for that and decide how you are going to set up the board. Also you do not get to keep everything you play, since you are Exiling to Food chain to keep the ball rolling and thus you are stacking with that plan in mind.
A common stack would be:
Ringleader (5)
SGC (9)
Warchief (6) (Keep on table)
SGC (11)
Ringleader (13)
Matron/Recruiter (Hold in hand)
Piledriver (12) (Keep)
Piledriver (11) (Keep)
Ringleader (13)
Kiki (9) (Keep)
Crafter (6) (Keep)
Piledriver (5) (Keep)
Ringleader (1) (Keep)
Whatever else you wish.
This gives you the best of all worlds, you can Pile someone or Kiki them letting you play around removal. Granted that is assuming you have none of this in hand to start with. If you wanted to just Kiki that would be easier but leaves you cold to a bolt:
Ringleader
SGC
Warchief
SGC
Ringleader
Kiki
Crafter
Recruiter
Wow. So broken. How would the format handle such a savagely fast powerful combo. That also requires a do nothing enchantment to be in play ... that already makes infinite mana in blue.
Shit, Ned and I agree on something... Um... BRB, need to make sure the world is not ending.
Agreed, it is about as format warping as Land Tax.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Bolt (targeting haste enabler) also stops the Piledriver plan cold. :rolleyes:
Run more than one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
It was unbanned in 1.5, before Legacy even was Legacy, when the cardpool was deeper and the decks more powerful, and it wasn't dominant even then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartesian
Myself and Artowis originally ported the deck to and developed it for 1.5, so I've played it extensively in tournament environments. You're underestimating the difficulty in stacking the deck correctly, as it requires a careful assessment of the current board state, weighing certain risk factors, and adjusting your stack accordingly. It was time consuming, and it frequently had to be done more than once in a game. That being said, I'll grant that matches rarely went to time playing it, at least for me. But certainly it's not particularly fun for my opponent to sit and watch me sort and fiddle with my deck for several minutes during every game.
I don't know for certain that the card is still banned for time reasons, but I can say with confidence that it wouldn't be overpowered if it were unbanned in modern Legacy.
1.5... Now that brings back memories :smile:
To be perfectly honest: I don't think anything will change for a long time.
I'll just leave this here :laugh:
http://38.media.tumblr.com/90423bfc7...rpajo1_500.gif
Eternal weekend legacy: brainstorm 65% of top 32 decks 84 copies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Miagi
Very funny pyroblast is top 6 player cards
Only 65%? That is tbh little less than expected, but still that card is over represented in legacy.
Ban Pyroblast !Quote:
Very funny pyroblast is top 6 player cards
/Sarcasm
Only because some casual.dec go top 32Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Miagi
and 4 lands got top 32
Grixis Pyromancer Bob Huang 1
OmniTell Akash Naidu 2
Grixis Pyromancer Kyle Roen 3
Lands Kevin King 4
Merfolks George Flete 5
Rogue Max Ansbro 6
4c Delver Charlie Holland 7
Grixis Pyromancer Ed Demicco 8
Lands Travis Compton 9
Lands Matthew Szczeblewski 10
Jund Chris Fornaro 11
Grixis Pyromancer Paolo Cesari 12
OmniTell Michael Ingram 13
Painters Michael Keller 14
Post Ramp Chris Rowland 15
Merfolks Robert Zimmerman 16
UR Burn Steven Bonovitch 17
Berserk Stompy Nick Miller 18
Miracle Control Alex Smith 19
Threshold UGr Luis Neiman 20
Miracle Control Joshua Ravitz 21
Miracle Control Daniel Miller 22
MUD James Wohlmacher 23
Lands Lisa Seelye 24
Death and Taxes Eetai Ben 25
Miracle Control Samuel Roukas 26
Affinity Victoria Ezell 27
Miracle Control Anuraag Das 28
Grixis Pyromancer Jesse Inman 29
OmniTell Hank Mead 30
OmniTell Tom Smart 31
Grixis Pyromancer Peter White 32