[Deck] Goblins

Good report Gobolord, that makes me think that i should try to play with a warren instigator list in a tournament because maybe I'm a little too much focused on the classic list.

Regarding the puzzle question, i think i would pitch chieftain to mox, then play wasteland and cast a piledriver turn 1 (if on the play). Then turn two I'd fetch for a badlands and hope to connect with piledriver to prowl in earwig squad (i don't think the opponent would try to kill piledriver just to prevent that 1 damage, because he will not be expecting earwig squad).

PUZZLE
I think that this hand is bad for the third game because it looks like very all-in. If i were you i'll mull. because you have 2 dead cards in hand like ringleader, squad and mox makes your hand worse and less agressively becaus there are a lot of removels in Jund. Decay and bolt deal with your early agression and squad will never come. Shaman will block Driver in you turn 2 if you'll play it in turn 1 = bad situation for you, but you can bluff like you have gempalm. Or you could all-in turn1 tarn to mountain, mox to squad, driver. turn2 land, chieftain, attack. Turn3 if land then ringleader or dead xD

thx 4 report.

Great report, thx. I play similar list but without moxen and with pyrokinesis main. Puzzle: I would never keep that hand. In most cases i mull hands without lackey, winstigator or vial. And why you side in earwig squad against Jund?

@Gobolord

I would only ever keep that hand against combo on the play. Play the fetch for a Badlands so that you'll have access to B next turn. Play the Crome Mox removing Ringleader. You should pitch ringleader because you are not guaranteed to be able to cast it (unlike Chieftain) and it doesn't present as much of a clock as chieftain. T1 cast Piledriver. T2 connect with pile and prowl in EW off of wasteland. T3 activate waste or cast chieftain + waste if you make the land drop. That let's you swing for 14 and hamper their manabases. Ringleader is definitely the one you want to imprint on Mox. But this hand is really only keepable against combo on the play.

I know that Gobolord collects statistic so this is mine for last two days
2-1 Omnitell
2-1 Reanim
1-2 manaless dredge
3-2 Jund
2-0 Merfolks
2-1 Enchantres
2-0 Goblins
0-2 Miracle with rip+field combo
2-1 TES
2-1 Burn
1-0 D&T
2-1 lands

Thanks Ace, Jrw GobboL and all for the reports. Really nice read after a few days of town/internet.

@8 discard spells: They are not nearly as good as 3-5 discard spells, 3-5 other disruption. Also, Leyline of Sanctity.

@Puzzle:
That hand is a gamble, but I'd probably keep it on the play (as he was). Somethings to consider:
- IF you decide to play Piledriver turn 1, it will connect, the only other realistic option is your opponent Bolting it (3 on the deck), and still, a bad play, though not as bad as trading it with the possibility of gempalm. Still, not really relevant, because my T1 would be Waste, Mox, removing Squad, cast Piledriver.
- Now the opponent will:
1 - Cast Deathrite. Cool for us. Now he has 0 mana avaliable, and we can hit him for freakin 6 next turn, and demand an answer.
2 - Cast Seize, in which case, he should pick Ringleader, and we hit for 6 anyway, and he'll be probably at 11 ON OUR TURN 2.
3 - Leave mana open for Bolt, in which case he would Bolt Chiefatin, which is the worst case scenario for us. Still, might give us enough time to play Ringleader.

I guess people usually tend to not consider that we also draw cards on our drawphase. If we we have deployed 6 hasty power on the table by turn 2, we demand an answer. "Turn3 if land then ringleader or dead" is just wrong. You could have drawn a Matron, Chieftain, MWM, more Ringleader, and whatnot by then. Even Lackey/Gator are ok here, since they'll have to be blocked, if not because of what you have, but because of the fear of what you might have.

Another factor I'd like to comment on is that Winstigator lists have more cards that are worse lategame, and Mox make mulligan decisions worse against attrition deck (while on the other hand makes them better against non-interactive, or decks where you have a blowout card, like Elves). That would add to the no-mulliganing for me.

After all that, I don't like that hand very much, but her 'pros' slightly outwheight the 'cons' for me.

@ 'oops, I win' card: Imo, right now, or best option is Krenko. Other 'fatties' like SGC, Kiki-Jiki, Boartusk Liege are also options, but for me are just a step behind (depending of the list, obviously). Even the non-goblin cards I'm fairly unhappy with....

Thank you for your reactions.
Before I "reveal" how I played that hand I would like to reply to some of your comments.

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Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper

PUZZLE
I think that this hand is bad for the third game because it looks like very all-in. If i were you i'll mull. because you have 2 dead cards in hand like ringleader, squad and mox makes your hand worse and less agressively becaus there are a lot of removels in Jund. Decay and bolt deal with your early agression and squad will never come. Shaman will block Driver in you turn 2 if you'll play it in turn 1 = bad situation for you, but you can bluff like you have gempalm. Or you could all-in turn1 tarn to mountain, mox to squad, driver. turn2 land, chieftain, attack. Turn3 if land then ringleader or dead xD

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Commenting on the bold parts
Well, the whole point of the WInstigator list is to go "all in". I dont think that DRS will be declared as a blocker for Piledriver on turn 2 - not when he risks losing that guy to Gempalm Inicnerator. Plus, Jund needs the mana accelaration (e.g. to cast E.Plague on turn 2).
Your last scenario (imprinting EWS, casting Chieftain on turn 2) would only work if I draw a red manasource on turn 2. If I don't, the whole all-in-plan is screwed.

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Originally Posted by tesla

And why you side in earwig squad against Jund?

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Engineered Plagues. Big body. And he's better than Krenko in this MU for sure.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Play the fetch for a Badlands so that you'll have access to B next turn. Play the Crome Mox removing Ringleader. You should pitch ringleader because you are not guaranteed to be able to cast it (unlike Chieftain) and it doesn't present as much of a clock as chieftain. T1 cast Piledriver. T2 connect with pile and prowl in EW off of wasteland. T3 activate waste or cast chieftain + waste if you make the land drop. That let's you swing for 14 and hamper their manabases. Ringleader is definitely the one you want to imprint on Mox.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Still, not really relevant, because my T1 would be Waste, Mox, removing Squad, cast Piledriver.

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Casting Piledriver for 1B doesn't work =)
However, thank you for your elaborate posting, I can see that you really put yourself in my position there and your line of thinking is correct IMO.
Also thank you on answering my question about that fatty-slot, which probably be occupied by Krenko for the time being.


Here is what really happened:

Me: cast Chrome Mox (Ringleader), play Wasteland (not fetchland, to not reveal my B splash), castPiledriver
At that point there were 3 possible options for Julian:

(1) play Deathrite Shaman.
But: he probably wouldn't dare to block on my turn, because Gempalm Inicnerator would put him too far behind. Considering that Gempalm Incinerator AND my Wasteland would leave him with 0 mana on his turn, me having 3 and a Piledriver.

(2) play Thoughtseize.
But: now he has the choice to grab Earwig Squad or Chieftain. If he grabs EWS, I hit him for 6 next turn, putting him to 12 lifepoints before he can even play a second land. If he grabs Chieftain I play Earwig Squad to rip his Engineered Plagues and he is staring at a 5/3 beatstick.

(3) play Lightning Bolt on my turn.
This is arguably the worst-case scenario, BUT: in that case I can still play Chieftain on my turn and see how it goes. Essentially the boardposition then is still slightly unfavorable for him, since Chieftain demands another removal, or a blocker that is larger than DRS. Then again casting Lightning Bolt on Piledriver would not be the most obvious thing to do. WHen I attack with Piledriver without casting anything before this should tell him that I either missed my landdrop (which makes Bolting Piledriver even worse of a decision), or that I prepare to cast something more dangerous for 3-4 mana (which is: Chieftain, Matron, Krenko, Ringleader), which is definitely a card that he wants to keep his Lightning Bolt for. However, I admit that this is theory-crafting and that casting Lightning Bolt could have put me a little behind.

Julian: plays a fetchland and passes the turn.
Me: draw another fetchland, attack, Piledriver connects, cast Earwig Squad for Prowl (2x Engineered Plague, 1x Massacre)
Julian: (not sure about that) plays another land, fetches for Bayou, casts Dark Confidant or Scavenging Ooze, passes
Me: draw a Mountain, cast Chieftain, attack for 6+6+2 = 14 damage, Chieftain gets blocked, putting him down to 7, play the Mountain and pass.
Julian: plays another land, casts Thoughtseize (Scalding Tarn), casts Tarmgoyf, passes
Me: draw Matron, play fetchland, fetch for Mountain, cast Matron for Stingscourger, attack for 8.

Given the explanation on the scenarios on Julian's possible turn 1 plays I think it was reasonable to keep that hand.
I inprinted Ringleader, not Chieftain in that Mox because my goal was to cast Earwig Squad for prowl. In case Piledriver gets handled I still got CHieftain as backup on turn 2 to possibly cast EWS on turn 3. On top of that I had no garantee of having 4 mana by turn 3 to cast Ringleader. Even if this were tha case, I would lose my tempo and my agressive surprise-potential if I imprinted Chieftain, not RIngleader. Imprinting EWS was not an option either because I had to draw a red manasource on turn 2 to be able to keep things going and cast Chieftain.

Thank you for commenting

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

Imprinting EWS was not an option either because I had to draw a red manasource on turn 2 to be able to keep things going and cast Chieftain.

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This. Your play was clearly better.
Also: you drew 2 lands, then a Matron. Obviously could have done better.
But then again, his hand was quite bad, specially if it was Bob/Ooze instead of Goyf. Your opponent might have kept a E.Plague hand, and was just overwhelmed before could do anything. Still, keeping without a T1 play against goblins was a mistake by his side.
Nicely played.

Christian and Marcello: Can you write a bit about your experience with Chrome Mox? When do you board in the 3rd? Do you ever board OUT the maindeck 2?

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

my T1 would be Waste, Mox, removing Squad, cast Piledriver.

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Please note that because Squad is a black card you are unable to cast Piledriver in this sequence.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

* props to ScatmanX for his secret-techy Chrome Mox #3 in the SB
* I’m still not content with Krenko, but I felt like the deck needs something dumb and powerful. So that’s where Krenko came into play. I’m still going to look for better cards with the same “oops I win” potential, but manacost of 4 or less. Any idea is welcome.

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Nothing has the same potential as Krenko for winning the game by itself. The only thing that comes close is Kiki-Jiki but that one fails your 4-cmc test.

If you have some board presence and a Piledriver, Legion Loyalist is solid IMO. Loyalist will also sometimes let Instigator connect through chump blockers (if you have Chieftain + Instigator + Loyalist, only a Goyf sized creature can prevent the Instigator trigger). Also, Pyromancer tokens.

Nice to see you playing with Instigators and liking them so much.
I think you had some luck in round 1 (Instigator not getting bolted after playing it with double Chrome Mox), and against elves in round 2 (double turn 1 Chalice of the Void). Still, very nice run, and the deck seems solid and very Instigator-centered, the way that it should be.
I never could get behind the lists with 4 vial and 2 chrome mox, for some reason I dislike that particular card combination too much. But I could see myself trying a build 3 chrome mox in the side (possibly even a couple of Simian Spirit Guide that comes in against combo instead of the slow vials).

Damn I miss playing Goblins. BOM coming up soon. Must.. resist...

@liamb: see 2 posts above yours.

@hof: Don't think he got lucky against elves. with 3 CotV and 3 Perish, along with 3 Mox to speed things up, there was a good chance he'd get one of his blow-out cards early. Also, T1 Instigator is pretty much game against elves, so he could have that too.
Round1 he was a little bit luckier. Still, there were probably 4-6 burn spells that'd killed Instigator, maybe some FoW to stop it, and all creature would die to removal/blocking. Don't know his hand or anything, but UR Delver is a hell of an easy matchup.

@Ace:
Chrome Mox is used to advance our gameplan faster than otherwise we'd be able to do, much like Deathrite Shaman does, but more explosively and inconsistently. It let us match BGx acceleration power given some card disadvantage.
The raw speed we gain is also nothing to be scoffed at, and many decks will just loose when they're not prepared to face T1 Instigator, T1 Port Activation, T1 Waste+Lackey, or even a simple T2 Warchief, T3 Ringleader+Pile/MWM. You play a game that they don't expect, and that gives you an edge.
Now, Chrome Mox can be awesome, and, suck balls, and can be utterly irelevant depending on the matchup. So:

- Where it shines: Against Storm Combo (TES/AnT/Tide), All in/2 card Combo (Belcher, SI, Painter, SnT), All in grave strategies (Reanimator, TinFins, Dredge), and decks that aim to reach the midgame and finish the game faster than us (Elves, Affinity).
* Against these decks, you need to speed up your gameplan and disrupt them as fast as you can, so Mox let you do that. There are other cards that also do that without making you lose momentum, like Trap/CotV against Combo, LotV/Crypt against graveyard, and Kinesis against Elves/Affinity. The beauty of Mox is that it is great against all of them, so there's when the 3rd one come in. Instead of adding a card that is good against one of those, you add one that is good against all.
My usual picks to Exile with Mox: Ringleader, Krenko, MWM. We don't win via Card Advantage, and neither of them greatly help to improve our clock.
(PS: Mox also function as another way to get T3 kills withou Lackey, with hands like Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, stuff)

- Where it is usually better then a Mountain or irrelevant: Tempo Decks (Canadian, Uwr Delver), Atrittion decks without discard (Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins), Control (Miracles, Stoneblade).
* This are fair decks, and we usually win games overwhelming them with C.A. Against Tempo, mox is usually a little better than mountain, since it lets us not be punished so much by Wastes, Stifles and Dazes (being Stifled on a Fetch is WAY worse then on a Mox), making us able to develop our board faster, to kill thir threats, and eventually win. Against Attrition it is somewhat irrelevant, since you have cards that eventually don't do enough, like a Lackey you draw T2-3, when youd rather cast Instigator/Warchief, so it doesn't cost you very much. Same for Control, where you have way more semi-dead cards. Adding Mox here is sometimes desirable against Tempo, or on the draw against some others.
My usual picks to Exile with Mox: after T1, Lackey, then Instigator. We don't usually connect, they're weak by their own, and you really don't want to overextend against Wrath decks.

- Where it is potentially awesome, and potentially terrible: Most decks with discard (Jund/Shardless/BGx, etc).
* One thing we can't deny is that Chrome Mox IS card disadvantage. That usually don't hurt, but it do when you have a small hand. Against these though, it can be problematic. I had problems already with ending up not wanting to pitch any card, where a mountain would have been great; Mox have been target also more then once, and when it's something like your 3rd land, it hurts; Mulliganing against discard is the worst thing ever with it; among others. That said, there are situations where it is really awesome. Imagine a T1 Deathrite Shaman, followed either by Dark Confidant or Liliana. If we're on the draw, that can win the game really fast. With Mox though, you can cast for instance a T1 MWM, and suddently and the plays your opponent have will not have the same impact. Another example would be in stuations like on GobboLords report. Mox helped create a favorable situation so fast that the opponent was not able to recover in time, even though he exhausted all his resources, and the opponent had a full grip. Still, siding in a 3rd Mox would not be advisable. Siding them out is not either, cause the deck is still very mana hungry, and I cannot advise you to run less than 22 mana sources.
My usual picks to Exile with Mox: Anything that doesn't provide C.A., unless somethig like on Gobbos situation happen.

Just a sidenote: Right now I'm playing a list that does not run Instigator, but features Mox. Though they do run extremly well togheter, they're not by any means bound togheter. I suggest anyone willing to try any list with Mox to give it a spin.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Christian and Marcello: Can you write a bit about your experience with Chrome Mox? When do you board in the 3rd? Do you ever board OUT the maindeck 2?

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I really have nothing to add. I agree with Marcello on 100% of the points he made.

Merfolks just got this new tool in commander 2013:

Identity Nemesis {1}{U}{U}

Creature - Merfolk Rogue

As Identity Nemesis enters the battlefield, choose a player.

Identity Nemesis has protection from that player. (This creature cannot be blocked, targeted, damaged or enchanted by a source controlled by that player.)

3/1


Between this and tidebinder mage (also master of waves but i don't think it will be played), the merfolk matchup may not be simple anymore. Really they are printing a bit too much stuff for fishes... given that goblins and elves will not exist for all the theros block (unlike merfolks) couldn't they have printed a creature of another type in commander 2013 ?

Not worried about the new Folk. He's not a lord, not synergistic, and pretty fairly priced. He's going to be much better against Batterskull or Goyf than Piledriver.

Protection from Player seems like a pretty lame ability from a design viewpoint. You can't touch this.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

Not worried about the new Folk. He's not a lord, not synergistic, and pretty fairly priced. He's going to be much better against Batterskull than Piledriver.

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Pretty much this. Also, we can still kill the other lords and whatnot. Against us anyway don't see him being all that "omfg holy jesus" people think on the spoiler thread.
Still, don't like the card.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Pretty much this. Also, we can still kill the other lords and whatnot. Against us anyway don't see him being all that "omfg holy jesus" people think on the spoiler thread.
Still, don't like the card.

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I think this card is more dangerous in UWx stoneforge shell. Still Goblins have their tools to handle artifacts. However such a hard-to-deal body can cause a lot of struggle.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

Pretty much this. Also, we can still kill the other lords and whatnot. Against us anyway don't see him being all that "omfg holy jesus" people think on the spoiler thread.
Still, don't like the card.

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This is somewhat true what im scared about is people will put in more eplagues in their SB which is a shitty card for us:tongue::tongue::tongue:

Shattergang Brothers 1RBG
Legendary Creature - Goblin Artificer (M)

2B, sacrifice a creature: each other player sacrifices a creature
2R, sacrifice an artifact: each other player sacrifices an artifact
2G, sacrifice an enchantment: each other player sacrifices an enchantment

3/3

So here is the first three colored goblin in the history of magic! (I'm quite sure about this)
I suppose the three colors automatically make him unplayable for us... plus, it doesn't seem strong as other options we have at 4 cost.

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Originally Posted by GoboLord

... SB: 4 Cabal Therapy

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Therapy is a powerful spell that certainly deserves a SB slot, however with merely 4 fetches and 1 Badland (and no cantrips), I feel your mana base doesn't support them sufficiently. Even more so since you want that black source in your opener. Sure when you also bring in EWS you additionally have the slim chance of making a black Mox, but that doesn't really improve the ratio. My suggestion: either more fetches or more Badlands.
Just my..
http://resources.woodlands-junior.ke...s/money/2p.gif