I blame Hollywood:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
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Painters Michael Keller 14
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I blame Hollywood:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
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Painters Michael Keller 14
I plead the 5th.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I'm not sure what your definition of 'Casual.dec' is. But there are plenty of established and developing decks in that list which don't run Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulabnar
Also, I'm not sure what your point is. 35% of the top decks didn't run Brainstorm, but That doesn't really count somehow because 12.5% of the top decks happened to be Lands? Maybe you could give us a list of decks which you approve of and which you acknowledge would contribute to the meta?
With over 13 000 cards in the Legacy pool, pretty much anything that sees any play at all is going to be over-represented.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Miagi
There will always be a card (or cards) played more than the others (aka, over-represented); and this is true of every format.
Sure, there will always be a card played more than the others, because some card has to be #1. But the #1 card in Modern is Lightning Bolt at 45%, and the #1 card in Standard is Courser of Kruphix at 39% (Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth at 43% if you want to count nonbasic lands). Brainstorm is at significantly higher percentages than either of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
So?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
And what you take from there is that the longer the format exists the better cards emerge, therefore being more prevalent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Yeah, I get that. But calling BS over-represented in inane. There will always be over-represented cards. The question is :Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Is BS over-represented more-so than is acceptable for the #1 played card in the format?
Reading through this thread, there are plenty of opinions stated about this very matter.
Personally, I will never judge Legacy by comparing it to Modern or Standard! Those formats could disappear altogether without affecting my assessment of Legacy.
But since you mention it...
Those formats might have a better balance when it comes to variety of cards, but Legacy has them beat hands down when it comes to variety of play-styles (aka, aggro, tempo, prison, control, combo, midrange). So I don't think Legacy need envy Standard or Modern!
If you take out Brainstorm the next most played card will likely be Force. At that point the "Because it's the most played card" arguments die. Because no one that has played this format for any amount of time is going to be asking for a Force ban.
That's largely because Force is the 'Fun Police', whereas Brainstorm is the 'Joker Gas' of Legacy. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Rather at that point we realize the absurdity of banning based on play frequency in the first place. We need to look at how the card affects the format, not merely how much play it sees!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I will grant you that and leave my views at the door, I just wished to point out that the idea that "Well there will always be a most played card and it will be the peoples target" is a false dichotomy because no one is ever going to really entertain the thought of banning Force. Not if they have a reasonable understanding of what the card does in Legacy and ifs secondary effects.
I think by now we've informally established that vintage is the (uber)broken-cards format and legacy is the brainstorm format. Killing brainstorm (regardless of whether it deserves it) means killing the identity of the format.
I certainly don't consider that a bad thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
The bad part is when the card that is so ubiquitous that it basically says "play this card or lose". That's imo where the format is at right now barring lands and elves.
So saying that "there will always be cards played more than others, and this is true in all formats" isn't a particularly compelling argument for defending Brainstorm's 70+% metagame share, when those other formats don't have cards being played that much more. I mean, heck, if Brainstorm was in 100% of decks, you could use that argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
...except one of the archetypes you listed, aggro, has been unviable for quite some time in Legacy. On the other hand, it's quite alive in Modern and Standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
I'd classify Infect as an aggro deck.
Let people call it a combo deck because it needs a certain combination of cards to win quickly, but I feel that's true for every deck... It wins by attacking quickly with creatures it hard-casts and goes all-in on, I don't know what else you'd want.
Saying infect is Aggro is like saying Elves is Aggro. Yea, it can get the job done that way, but it ain't the plan to play fair.
I find interesting that there isn't a main deck white card until 21st place Miracles list.
Not sure what to make of that, just an observation
I'm not saying people will always go after the most played card. I'm saying being the most played card is no criteria for banning!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I agree that infect is not aggro - it plays like tempo. Burn on the other hand is the definition of aggro (unless you think aggro needs an arbitrary percent of its threats to be creatures).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Point is Legacy could have zero aggro and still feature a better mix of styles than Modern or Standard - which have little (or nothing) in the way of viable combo, tempo, control or prison! Yes, the decks might run more different cards, but they mostly attack the game from the very same angle.
Way to dismiss one third to one fifth of the meta! How can you expect anyone to take you seriously (except those who already hate the meta)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Burn is really more of a combo deck that wins the game by casting a spell 7 times, sort of like a Storm deck but over multiple turns. But even if you consider it to be aggro, Burn really doesn't put up many results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Modern absolutely has combo and tempo, but maybe you're referring to Standard with that (though Standard sort of has some tempo). But it's odd you complain about lack of control or prison in Modern when there were more prison decks and more control decks in the Top 32 of the last Modern Open than there were aggro decks in the top 32 of the last Legacy Open (unless one wants to count Infect as aggro, which I don't, and which you seem to agree on).Quote:
Point is Legacy could have zero aggro and still feature a better mix of styles than Modern or Standard - which have little (or nothing) in the way of viable combo, tempo, control or prison!
WTF does this even mean? "the identity of the format". 1.5 was the format that was to be unburdened by the restricted list. THAT is the identity of Legacy. It's only purpose for existing was to say, we want an eternal format where deck building isn't burdened with the mistakes of the past. That was it's definition when it was created, further codified when the lists split. We now have a format burdened with a must play list, starting with Brainstorm, followed pretty closely by Ponder (both of which outpace Force). If I want to play a format with cards so absurdly busted that they saturate 80% of the decks I will. That format is called Vintage, and it's awesome, but I'd like 1.5 to be 1.5 and not be burdened with the broken cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
Nowhere in 1.5's history has the format been infected with an 80% (non basic land) card without that card being banned. I've documented this multiple times. Misstep was close and it was rightfully banned (and it now plagues Vintage).
The saturation of the card wouldn't be so offensive if WotC would at least remove cards that aren't in the same stratosphere as Brainstorm from the banned list. Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Black Vise, Recruiter and Survival aren't close to Brainstorm's raw power, ability to skirt discard, unmulliganing capacity, and impact on mana base construction (e.g. 18 lands with 4 wastes in a 60 card deck). Actually they are all worse than Ponder also.
Stop making ethereal statements like "identity", "pillar of the format", "format defining". Discuss the card on it's merits and compare the card in question to shit on the banned list.
No, but 80% usage certainly is. It's overwhelming ability to unmulligan bad hands, allow for absurd mana base construction, neuter targeted discard, break the miracle mechanic in half, enable and accelerate 2-card combo are the reasons its power level is far above any other card in the format. That's the reason it's at 80%. No other (non-basic land) card in 1.5's history has lasted at that usage and not gotten banned. Usage reflects power level. You sit down to make a legacy deck and if you aren't playing that card you are handicapping yourself severely. Yes elves is competitive, lands is competitive, those are straw men. Evaluate the card, not decks. The card is absurdly busted, the card is played in 80% of decks, the card should be banned. At a minimum the pile of flotsam still on the banned list should be unbanned, then 6 month later when Brainstorm is still at 80%, it should be banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Ok, fine, but you then have to admit that the issues people have with the card are in fact not to do with it's penetration as they are to do with why the card has such penetration. When people point out that Brainstorm tops out in the cards played category, it normally comes with other points at the same time. i,e. how twisting the effect has on the format as a whole and due to its power, it warps the meta and somewhat forces itself upon the playerbase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Stating that you can play other options, like Lands (A deck I love), Elves (Another), Painter (Again) or DnT (Go die in a fire you stupid deck) is but a drop in the ocean when you compare the mass of decks that slot this single card in because, should it be removed, the deck overall starts to fail to work correctly. The balance is insane. I mean sure, list off Elves, Lands and DnT as examples of decks that do not run Brainstorm, but then note that the cards they do share is very very small overall. Lands and Elves share Fetchs basically and DnT and Lands share the land control package, that's it.
Flip the lens and look at decks that run Blue Duals and Fetches. You are likely to find a large core of shared cards, an inbreeding inside themselves that people in general point at and state they have an issue with. It is not as much that Brainstorm is the most run card therefor it should be banned, it is that it is the most run card due to other reasons that push upon the whole format a way of building that you just can not get past. If you are playing Tropical Island, Underground Sea, Volcanic Island or Tundra, chances are you are running Brainstorm because it's a dedicated necessity if you want to play in those shared colours. It's not even like you have a choice. If you are playing a landbase with one of those cards, it is highly likely (Elves with a Blue splash aside) that Brainstorm is the first card you add because your deck with be fundamentally weaker without it. With that kind of restriction people bring up their issues and that is where the "Most played card" comments come from. It's true yes, but that is a symptom, people are pointing at a symptom and seeking a cure.
And that is where comments like "Chalice decks" or "Choke decks" come into play. People are not moving the goalposts when they say "Play Chalice or bust". They are being hyperbolic sure, but it is a symptom of what has become a "Beat it or join it" issue in the format. It is those people throwing up their hands and going "Well fuck it, if this is what it takes" and then they get crucified on this thread for such comments because people see them as shifting the goalposts. It's a thin response to a growing epidemic to say that someone pointing out that the best way to win now is to main narrow ass cards. I mean Painter plays REB over BEB main for a fucking good reason. It has nothing to do with the colour and everything to do with the antibiotics that are needed to fight the plague.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Anyway. For the record I think my views on Brainstorm have changed as I have started to play with it here and there. The card might just have to go. I think I am switching sides.
Dice.
The decks that are currently doing well run 16+ of the same blue cards or prison decks (7 thorn, port/waste, chalice, or some combination of those). We already have one format like this.
Not even Elves anymore. People (including myself) have basically given up on the deck in the current metagame. Miracles, Omnitell and Grixis Delver (which swarms with tokens)? No thanks. Sticking with Storm for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Tier 1 Modern decks: Grixis Control, Jund, Merfolk, Burn, Affinity, Grixis Twin, UR Twin. Tier 2 Modern decks: RUG Twin, Elves, Tron, Junk, Junk Company, Grixis Delver, Zoo, Scapeshift, Amulet Bloom, Grishoalbrand, Infect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
So we have control, midrange, aggro, fast combo, combo-control, aggro-combo, and tempo. Prison is the only archetype not particularly represented in Modern. I'm really tired of "arguments" regarding Modern comprising outright lies. I expect better from someone who spends so much time claiming his arguments are based on facts and logic.
I don't know much about Modern,I'm the first to admit. But I do know about the turn four rule, so I'm afraid you lost me at "fast combo".Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Infect, amulet, affinity and reanimator can kill on turn 2. They just aren't that consistent on doig that. To be fair I think modern is dominated by twin and its variations. The meta basically just rotate around it. If you can't deal with twin you're out. With this said, I think comparing the formats is stupid, they are clearly two different things.
There is a big difference in speed and playstyle between Twin, which is generally a combo-control or combo-tempo deck depending on variation (and rarely goes for it turn 4 unless the opponent simply can't interact), and all-in combo decks like Amulet Bloom and Grishoalbrand. Those decks have not-uncommon turn-2 nut-draws and lack any real non-combo backup plan. In the Legacy context, it would be like comparing a hybrid combo deck like Food Chain or Elves with say TES.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Modern is currently dominated by Jund and Twin. Those two decks together make up a solid 20-25% of the metagame when their percentages are combined, but beyond those two it is currently quite diverse. It is still possible to compete without being great against those two (i.e. Affinity isn't particularly good against either of them, but is still a DTB). Consider Lands in Legacy - the deck is a dog against Omnitell and Storm but has solid matchups against most everything else. It loses to a big chunk of the meta but is still a DTB or at least close to one due to its other matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam
I played a pretty stock Grixis list in an IQ the other day. One basic land, 25 one-drops. I was 4-0 against decks not playing Brainstorm. These included two decks playing Chalice, one of which also played 4 blood moon and I believe some maindeck red blasts. I also played against a deck with 5+ red blast effects main, plus Blood Moon, plus Magus of the Moon. Didn't matter. Even against the decks built to prey on my blue-dual, one-drop heavy deck, I won.
FWIW, I was 1-2 against other decks playing Brainstorm, 3-3 in games (0-2, 1-2, 2-0).
The cantrip strategy isn't 75% of the format just because people like it, it's 75% of the format because playing anything else is a bad idea if you want to win. In the top 16 of the tournament I played, there were 3 decks without cantrips (about 20%). There were no MB blood moons or chalices, despite the fact that I played against 3 decks on that plan personally and saw other decks like MUD in the room that were unrepresented at the top tables. All the diversity that is championed in Legacy is being crowded out by the superiority of the cantrip shell.
I played a local tournament yesterday being the only one without Force of Will and Brainstorm. Obviously I won going 4-0. 100% against blue decks with a non-blue one. And it wasn't Dregde or MUD.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Been 4-0 at many events playing without Brainstorm. It's rounds 5-11 that catch up with you. Having to mulligan for real hurts.
Yeah, the decks I played against were doing fine after 4 rounds too.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
We're talking about a 7-round, 80-person, competitive REL tournament with a prize pool of $5,000, not a local.
Played Burn. Mulligans don't matter here.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Sry for 2x post.
Once, I took Burn to a bigger event: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=8202&iddeck=59817
131 players, 8 rounds, no problem, 6-1-1 into Top8.
Rather just not play than play burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
Sounds about right. Hate just doesn't get you there when you lack consistency and the blue player can just a turn one Delver and then counter/discard everything relevant. I know this from experience playing basically every blue hate deck Legacy has to offer.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Seconded.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
That was in April of 2012 when the meta looked like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by CabalTherapy
1 Blade Control
2 Threshold UGr
3 Jund
4 Sneak Attack
5 Miracle Control
6 Team America
7 Maverick
8 Merfolks
9 Ad Nauseam Tendrils
10 BUG Control
11 Goblins
12 Reanimator
Now everything is Sultai this and Temur that. :rolleyes:
Yeah I'm sure there's plenty of bad deck success stories if we rewind a few years. I mean, I was doing pretty well with High Tide back then but that doesn't mean I'd recommend that deck for a tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
I think the main reasons are as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
- Imperial Recruiter is red. Playing BEB would mean splashing another colour, which obviously makes the deck less consistent (and in Painter's case also more vulnerable to its own prized Moon effects).
- Combo decks need protection. REB can answer the blue counter-spells which will stop Painter in its tracks. On the other hand, there is sweet little in the way of red disruption which Painter is worried about.
Are you seriously suggesting Painter was developed to fight blue decks? Painter ran REB back when Jund was the top deck!
Carsten Kotter wrote an insightful article a week or so ago which suggests otherwise. There is a discussion here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
Some people are making the claim that BS's usage is sufficient cause for banning...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I challenge your figure. Some events are pushing this level of penetration, but others are as low as 65-70%. Regardless, obviously some folks share you opinion while others do not. But for most reasonable people, you can't just look at card usage, but must also look at the decks which use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
For instance, if Show & Tell saw 80% usage, most everyone would consider that a problem because S&T is a narrow card which supports a very limited range of decks/styles. If S&T saw (sustained) 30-40% usage I think even this would be too much for most of us.
Brainstorm supports a more varied spread of archetypes. Midrange, tempo, storm combo, 2-card combo, graveyard combo, and control. Brainstorm can be found in anything from aggressive decks like U/R Delver to decks with little or no creatures like ANT and Miracles. This is why some of us are very tolerant of such high usage.
I think this point is completely lost on most Brainstorm haters. Some go so far as to pretend that Miracles and Omnitell are essentially the same deck! I understand that some people have a problem with too much blue or too many cantrips; but sometimes I think such people have absolutely no understanding of why other don't.
Automatic DQ if you run brainstorm without 56 other cards. Cards don't exist in a vacuum.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Usage is also determined by versatility. Cantrips are the most versatile non-land cards in Legacy. Cards of equal power which are less versatile are bound to see less play.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
I don't think you know what a straw-man means, but you are certainly contradicting yourself!Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
If you sit down to put together a Legacy deck, you are not handicapping yourself to forego Brainstorm - just narrowing your options to a smaller selection of competitive decks. You can only play one deck per event, so choosing a non-brainstorm deck doesn't actually handicap you at all.
Spell based =/= combo, any more than creature based = aggro (aka, Elves, Dredge).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
The spells in storm actually depend on each other to function as intended. In this way, they combine. See what I did? The spells in Burn are as independent as the creatures in Zoo.
If we count tier two deck, Legacy has Burn, Affinity, and Merfolk - all linear aggro - and has Modern beat hands-down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
Looking at tier one Modern decks, I see three aggro decks, one control deck, one midranged deck and two variations of the same combo. I stand by what I said.